Unsuccessful handoff with ATC

MassPilot

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FloridaPilot
I was flying to Block Island while getting FF from Providence Approach. They handed me off to another sector ("Contact approach 119.45"). I swapped frequencies and attempted to check in. No response. I tried again with no luck. I heard a couple exchanges between a pilot and controller. I tried one more time.

Another pilot informed the controller that "there's a Skyhawk on the frequency attempting to check in." The controller asked for my call sign and he relayed it for me. She asked "<my call sign> are you trying to check in?" I responded, but she clearly couldn't hear me. I switched back to my previous frequency and told them that "I was unable to establish communications on 119.45." He told me to just stay with him on his frequency.

The weird thing is that this all took place at 4500 feet about half a mile from PVD where the TRACON is located. I could literally see the tower/TRACON that I was talking to, but for some reason they couldn't hear me on this particular frequency. Any idea what happened? I can't make any sense of it.
 
I just can't make sense of the physics of what happened. Another plane could hear me, but the TRACON that I actually had in sight could not, until I changed frequencies.
 
Or a chunk of hardline full of water. Or a folded dipole antenna that's been hit by lightning. Or a building in the way... Or the wrong receive antenna selected when running multiple sectors... ;)

It takes a number of reports of "weak" from pilots/controllers before someone is going to go check, if the system is still not triggering an SWR alarm on transmit.

If it's a split antenna system, noticing a problem in the receive side starts with those reports. Then someone goes and measures the antenna with a sweep, usually at least with an Aniritsu Sitemaster type box.

And if it looks good, someone (climbs up), disconnects the antenna and puts a lab-grade 50 ohm load on the end of the transmission cable and sweeps it Anaheim and makes sure power applied at the bottom matches power expected after cable loss at the top.

For all of that, the backup system must be utilized or appropriate communications NOTAMs issued...
 
Tracon location and antenna location are two (or three or four...) different things. Sometimes a bad handoff happens. It's really no big deal and you did fine. Simple phrasing is "negative contact on 1xx.xx" and the controller will figure out what happened.
 
You did the right thing by going back to your previous frequency. I've had this happen before. I was doing my long solo XC and had flight following. Center handed me off to approach but I could not establish communication with approach. I heard them talking, I heard others talking, but they couldn't hear me. After 3 unsucesful attempts to contact approach I switched back to Center and simply told them "Miami Center, Cessna 3YE unable to contact Orlando Approach on xxx.xxx" The miami controller told me to stay with her and then about 5 minutes later told me to try again. Then everything worked just fine.
 
I agree with Denverpilot on the multiple antenna locations. I notice this especially in northern Arkansas while on 128.475 with Memphis Center. The guy works both 128.475 and some northwestern corner sector so often you only hear half the convo. Most of the time you can tell when they switch between receive/transmit sites as their voice and the signal quality changes.

You did the right thing by going back to the last working freq. I often have to doing this between Fort Worth Center and Memphis Center in south Arkansas. They each tend to hand-off to early and you get stuck relaying or just hearing static.

Denverpilot: It gets fun when you get to listen to the freq without squelch and the guy sitting next to you is annoyed at the constant static. I had a CFI ask me how I could stand it and I replied because I have grown up listening to it at my house. :D Ah the benefits of listening to HF. :rolleyes2:
 
Denverpilot: It gets fun when you get to listen to the freq without squelch and the guy sitting next to you is annoyed at the constant static. I had a CFI ask me how I could stand it and I replied because I have grown up listening to it at my house. :D Ah the benefits of listening to HF. :rolleyes2:

Heh. I did that down near Gaston's... would hear the first call for me faintly and start counting... 3, 2, 1... "Cessna 79 Mike..." loud and clear...

The controllers are so used to talking to all the Jet route folks, they sometimes forget to push the button to change transmitters. The high flyers hear them off of their Primary transmitter, easily.

Happens a lot in southern CO, NM area too. ;)

I like listening to the LiveATC HF feeds. Both Atlantic and Pacific. Weak SSB, reporting points on the NAT tracks for those unfortunate enough not to have satellite text systems, and SELCAL tests. You can almost imagine the pilot cursing when the SELCAL doesn't work and they imagine a couple of hours of listening to static when they ask the controller to try it again, please! ;)
 
For what it's worth, in the short time I've been flying (~200 hrs) I've noticed two "holes" in the area where I fly where there are RF funnies that I can't explain. In these cases, I stopped receiving.

1) Doing IFR training near CXO. Was getting vectors to the ILS 14 from the east, and overshot the localizer because I never got instructions to intercept. Tried to call just before crossing, no response. Two calls later, I get a response loud and clear that Approach had been trying to vector me and I wouldn't respond. (There was little traffic on freq and no chance that I just missed the calls.) Got vectored to intercept from the west with no problems, flew the missed, and began another approach from the east. Encountered the same "black hole" and missed the localizer again. Ended up trying a third time with a different radio, and it was fine, but we also got vectored a little differently that time, so not sure if it was the radio or different flight path that solved the issue.

2) Flying direct between T41 and DTN, there is a region over E. TX where all of a sudden, I stop hearing Center. I can hear other pilots responding to Ctr on my freq, but I can't hear Ctr. Even with squelch defeated I hear _nothing_ on either radio (430W and KX155) except pilots. This has happened on three different trips. First time I didn't clue in to what I (wasn't) hearing for several minutes, and about the time I convinced myself there was a problem, I suddenly started hearing Ctr just fine again. (It's a sharp cutoff, too...not like I hear Ctr fading out, then fading back in--they're loud and clear until they're silent, and silent until they're loud and clear again.) Second time, I recognized it when it first happened, and dug up another freq from A/FD and tuned it on 2nd radio; I could hear them on the alt freq. Third time, I had the alternate freq in the flip-flop and was ready when it happened.

Weird...
 
For what it's worth, in the short time I've been flying (~200 hrs) I've noticed two "holes" in the area where I fly where there are RF funnies that I can't explain. In these cases, I stopped receiving.

1) Doing IFR training near CXO. Was getting vectors to the ILS 14 from the east, and overshot the localizer because I never got instructions to intercept. Tried to call just before crossing, no response. Two calls later, I get a response loud and clear that Approach had been trying to vector me and I wouldn't respond. (There was little traffic on freq and no chance that I just missed the calls.) Got vectored to intercept from the west with no problems, flew the missed, and began another approach from the east. Encountered the same "black hole" and missed the localizer again. Ended up trying a third time with a different radio, and it was fine, but we also got vectored a little differently that time, so not sure if it was the radio or different flight path that solved the issue.

Sounds like maybe an auto-squelch set too tight or a radio with a deficient antenna/coax so signals aren't strong enough to break the auto-squelch. If you have a chance to fly that aircraft again in that area, pull the squelch knob out and put up with the static and see if you hear them weakly in the noise. From reading further I think you know that, though.

If the auto-squelch is too tight, it can be adjusted on most radios on the test bench in about an hour, start to finish. Sadly, these days that'll cost about $100-$150 and it's really only about ten minutes of work once the case is off. Might as well have the avionics shop sweep the antenna on the aircraft while the radio is out of the rack also.

But then again, RF sometimes just doesn't reach everywhere the system designers intended. We have a hole in coverage in one of the UHF repeaters that I maintain that I can't explain fully. There's a ridgeline in between but it's not high enough to block line of sight. There's a phenomenon known as "knife-edging" that might explain it, but it really doesn't. I suspect it's a null in the antenna pattern and twisting the antenna in its mount 10-20 degrees would move it elsewhere, but since the intended coverage is omnidirectional and that would just move the problem, we just live with it.

2) Flying direct between T41 and DTN, there is a region over E. TX where all of a sudden, I stop hearing Center. I can hear other pilots responding to Ctr on my freq, but I can't hear Ctr. Even with squelch defeated I hear _nothing_ on either radio (430W and KX155) except pilots. This has happened on three different trips. First time I didn't clue in to what I (wasn't) hearing for several minutes, and about the time I convinced myself there was a problem, I suddenly started hearing Ctr just fine again. (It's a sharp cutoff, too...not like I hear Ctr fading out, then fading back in--they're loud and clear until they're silent, and silent until they're loud and clear again.) Second time, I recognized it when it first happened, and dug up another freq from A/FD and tuned it on 2nd radio; I could hear them on the alt freq. Third time, I had the alternate freq in the flip-flop and was ready when it happened.

Weird...

Are all the other pilots higher than you? The controller may be keying a far away transmitter instead of the one closest to your location. The alternate freq may also be being keyed simultaneously, but they didn't switch you to it. Basically if they want to find you, they will. They'll either relay the alternate freq through another aircraft or they'll switch transmitters. If they have no traffic in your area and don't expect any, they may just let you fly along and forget to switch ya. Heh.

I've helped with a relay for a lower aircraft before to have him switch frequencies with Abuquerque Center. They forgot to switch the guy, basically. Usually they ask the jet jocks to do the relaying so I must have been the only aircraft near him for a looooong way around.

I laughed when I saw that the avionics shop used "RG-8" (supposedly, I didn't see it) for the re-run of our transponder cable. RG-8 SUCKS for 1 GHz. And I was surprised it wasn't listed as RG-8X mini-foam. It probably was. RG-8 is fat.

Of course, I'm doing weak signal stuff and 13dB of loss in a 100' run is completely unacceptable. A couple of dB for a ten foot run in an aircraft, isn't any huge deal, but sheesh. Try some LMR-240. Maybe that nice fancy "ultra-flex" variety for environments with constant flexing/vibration. LMR-240UF.

On a 50W transponder, RG-8X gives roughly 35W to the antenna. Shameful! And I know that blade antenna doesn't have much gain.

LMR-240... Same size as RG-8X... Gets 41W to the antenna. It'd cost a whopping $0.79 a foot.

Sigh. Avionics shops are apparently stuck in the 1960's.
 
Sounds like maybe an auto-squelch set too tight or a radio with a deficient antenna/coax so signals aren't strong enough to break the auto-squelch. If you have a chance to fly that aircraft again in that area, pull the squelch knob out and put up with the static and see if you hear them weakly in the noise. From reading further I think you know that, though.
Yeah, I now have a bit set in my head that if I'm in that area, I'll either have the second radio also tuned to the approach freq and/or I'll defeat the squelch. Haven't been in that same geography since, though.

But then again, RF sometimes just doesn't reach everywhere the system designers intended. We have a hole in coverage in one of the UHF repeaters that I maintain that I can't explain fully. There's a ridgeline in between but it's not high enough to block line of sight.
In my case, there's no elevated terrain in the area to cause a shadow...TX gulf coast is pretty flat in that area. (Maybe they put the transmitter behind a building!)

Are all the other pilots higher than you?
Maybe, but at the time I remember thinking I was probably "high enough". Again, terrain in that part of TX is relatively flat/smooth, and I'm sure I was at least 4000 AGL, maybe higher.

The controller may be keying a far away transmitter instead of the one closest to your location. The alternate freq may also be being keyed simultaneously, but they didn't switch you to it. Basically if they want to find you, they will. They'll either relay the alternate freq through another aircraft or they'll switch transmitters. If they have no traffic in your area and don't expect any, they may just let you fly along and forget to switch ya. Heh.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was the only one in my neck of the E. TX piney forest, so they didn't have any need to talk to me for a while. By the time they did, I was receiving them on my last-assigned freq again. If it happens again and they're not too busy, I might report my observations.
 
On my long x-c, I had a similar thing happen. I was flying LBE-FKL and was talking to Cleveland Center. About 20 or so miles out, they handed me off to Youngstown App. I tried 3 times to check in, but got no response. I could hear the planes talking to/answering them, but couldn't hear them. I flipped back to Cleveland and let them know. By that point, I had FKL in site, cancelled FF and landed with no problem.
 
Good thing that you kept trying. On the BeechTalk forum, ZJX controller Luke Alcorn reports a new policy in place: "If ATC tries to call you and you don't answer, after 5 minutes the Domestic Events Network (?) is contacted. We do everything we can to contact you using guard, ACARS, company dispatch, etc but for GA the best thing we can do is try guard. If you go NORDO for over 20 minutes, a pilot deviation is filed with FSDO. Even if ATC messes up and gives you the wrong frequency, if you do not check in with the next controller and verify that he knows who you are, a pilot deviation will still be filed."

Not exactly the situation posed by the OP, but a sign that "no more Mister Nice Guy" days are over.

Other controllers who chimed in suggested frequent "radio check" calls if the frequency you are on is unusually silent.

Bob Gardner
 
For what it's worth, in the short time I've been flying (~200 hrs) I've noticed two "holes" in the area where I fly where there are RF funnies that I can't explain. In these cases, I stopped receiving.

1) Doing IFR training near CXO. Was getting vectors to the ILS 14 from the east, and overshot the localizer because I never got instructions to intercept. Tried to call just before crossing, no response. Two calls later, I get a response loud and clear that Approach had been trying to vector me and I wouldn't respond. (There was little traffic on freq and no chance that I just missed the calls.) Got vectored to intercept from the west with no problems, flew the missed, and began another approach from the east. Encountered the same "black hole" and missed the localizer again. Ended up trying a third time with a different radio, and it was fine, but we also got vectored a little differently that time, so not sure if it was the radio or different flight path that solved the issue.

2) Flying direct between T41 and DTN, there is a region over E. TX where all of a sudden, I stop hearing Center. I can hear other pilots responding to Ctr on my freq, but I can't hear Ctr. Even with squelch defeated I hear _nothing_ on either radio (430W and KX155) except pilots. This has happened on three different trips. First time I didn't clue in to what I (wasn't) hearing for several minutes, and about the time I convinced myself there was a problem, I suddenly started hearing Ctr just fine again. (It's a sharp cutoff, too...not like I hear Ctr fading out, then fading back in--they're loud and clear until they're silent, and silent until they're loud and clear again.) Second time, I recognized it when it first happened, and dug up another freq from A/FD and tuned it on 2nd radio; I could hear them on the alt freq. Third time, I had the alternate freq in the flip-flop and was ready when it happened.

Weird...

If this were real IMC, what's the lost radio procedure in this scenario?
 
Good thing that you kept trying. On the BeechTalk forum, ZJX controller Luke Alcorn reports a new policy in place: "If ATC tries to call you and you don't answer, after 5 minutes the Domestic Events Network (?) is contacted. We do everything we can to contact you using guard, ACARS, company dispatch, etc but for GA the best thing we can do is try guard. If you go NORDO for over 20 minutes, a pilot deviation is filed with FSDO. Even if ATC messes up and gives you the wrong frequency, if you do not check in with the next controller and verify that he knows who you are, a pilot deviation will still be filed."

Not exactly the situation posed by the OP, but a sign that "no more Mister Nice Guy" days are over.

Other controllers who chimed in suggested frequent "radio check" calls if the frequency you are on is unusually silent.

Bob Gardner

Thankfully ZME and ZFW (NORTHEAST) are still nice about no contact on radio calls. Normally they will call for a few minutes and then relay through a nearby aircraft. They both know AR and Northeast TX can be a blackhole in the lower altitudes.
 
Thankfully ZME and ZFW (NORTHEAST) are still nice about no contact on radio calls. Normally they will call for a few minutes and then relay through a nearby aircraft. They both know AR and Northeast TX can be a blackhole in the lower altitudes.

This is not Center-specific but applies everywhere. The reference is www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/JO7210.632.pdf. Appendix 7 is about communications but the totality is a laundry list of things for which pilots should be reported.

Bob
 
This is not Center-specific but applies everywhere. The reference is www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/JO7210.632.pdf. Appendix 7 is about communications but the totality is a laundry list of things for which pilots should be reported.

Bob

I note this sentence from the title page: "This directive modifies reporting requirements set forth previously to emphasize the collection of safety data as opposed to ascribing responsibility."

Here's what a controller on the red board has to say about the purpose of the program:

The purpose was to update with new QA procedures. Controllers have been encouraged to submit more ATSAP reports when there is a safety issue. It has been explained that this should be used to report a loss of separation without fear of being hung so the FAA can learn more about why bad things happen. It has also been encouraged to report systemic issues with procedures, etc. Nowhere in any of the briefings did it say to report more pilot deviations.

http://forums.aopa.org/showpost.php?p=1541508&postcount=100
 
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