"Unofficial" Grass Runway?

FastEddieB

FastEddieB

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Fast Eddie B
Tuesday, RWY 2/20, the only runway at my home base of Copperhill, TN (1A3, non-towered) was NOTAM'ed and marked closed for some resurfacing.

Timing was bad, because Monday I had just gotten my Sky Arrow back in the air with new ignition modules after extended down time.

I got to thinking about what I could do if I really wanted to go flying while the runway was closed.

I mentioned to the airport manager that I could almost take off from the ramp. He said although he could not specifically approve it, one of the airport tenants routinely landed his Champ in the grass alongside the runway. I learned to fly tailwheel in a J3 at Homestead General in a similar grassy area alongside the E/W runway there.

In any case, I walked Jake and Chowder along that grassy area yesterday. It's very wide, quite well manicured and at least as smooth as many of the grass fields I've been in, and at least 2,000' available before a bit of a "hump" for a taxiway:

15015634869_749e8effe5_c.jpg


It's certainly smoother than Peach State, which while rough was not problem :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEDltmHhwrE&list=UUIRbXga4oZn7XAUSLfkBO7w

Though its not in any way a defined runway, it sure looks like it could be used as such with no real risk.

I can't think of any reg that would render taking off and landing in that area illegal. Of course, if something happened there's always the catchall "Careless and Reckless" but beyond that I'd think I'd be good to go.

Any thoughts or experience doing this sort of thing? Especially interested in "cautionary tales"!

Thanks!
 
If the airport manager doesn't complain and you don't wreck or have other issues, the FAA isn't going to care.
 
If you've walked it and ensured no risks, no reason not to do so if the airport sponsor does not prohibit it (which, clearly, they do not).
 
At my home field, the flight school and a few people have Cubs. We have an active soaring club there, too. We have a grass strip, but also like you, there is a large chunk of grass next to the paved runway. That is used all the time instead of the paved runway by the gliders and the flight school. I don't think there is an issue with it.
 
If it is clear use it. Lots of airports have unofficial parallel grass runways. Any insurance gotchas with 'off airport' ops?
 
You can use any part of the airport you want if no ones gets excited about it. I've landed on taxiways before due to high winds and the grass runway being too soft. :dunno:
 
Looks pretty nice to me. In addition to walking it, you might want to hop in your car and drive it at touchdown speeds. Also check for clearance if you have wheel pants. Lastly, check your insurance policy to make sure it has no limitations against landing on non-designated runways, or something to the like. Probably not an issue, but I haven't read every insurance policy ever written.
 
Might be worth a call to your insurance company to see how they would react to damage.
 
As others have said, probably a good to walk it first. Look out for any drainage culverts or low spots that might be hidden. If you ask the guy that mows it, he'll be able to tell you about anything else out there that he normally runs across, like loose nuts and bolts.
 
Some excellent ideas...

1) I will check my insurance.

2) Driving it at speed is not something I would have thought of. Bear in mind I touch down at about my 39k stall speed - less with wind. So 50 mph should do it.

Thanks - if and when I go play with it I'll try to take my GoPro.
 
Depending on how soft the soil is, driving on it could put ruts exactly where you want to land. We use a parallel grass runway and there is a very strict 'no vehicles' rule about it. Cars are heavy, and if the ground is soft clay, you'll never get the car ruts out. Just get your plane out there, and go up and down it in 5MPH increments until you get to take off speed.
 
Man, look at all that pretty grass.

Who says you have to use a runway? (except the insurance company)

Is the runway closed or is the airport closed?

The grass is still part of the airport. The airport manager won't give his permission to use the grass due to liability. But I bet he won't deny you either.

Use a bicycle if you can't use a car.

Is that big X looking thing where you are supposed to touch down?:rofl:
 
Geico266 said:
You can use any part of the airport you want if no ones gets excited about it. I've landed on taxiways before due to high winds and the grass runway being too soft. :dunno:
Click to expand...


KOSH 18L / 36R

( and we used to do it all the time @ 22B )
 
General rules for unoffical turf runways: Walk it. Then taxi it in the plane if the plane is there. I would not drive it in a car. Check again after every rain.
 
My main concern...or at least one concern...would be the resurfacing equipment getting on it and tearing it up.

I wouldn't trust what it was like when I walked it four days ago...or even twelve hours ago.

Construction workers are morons (and I b 1).
 
I was on flight following a couple of years ago getting close to home returning to my home field at the end of a two hour trip. The controller called up and verified that I was flying to KFYM (Fayetteville, TN). I said yep. He had JUST received a NOTAM that the field was now closed for resurfacing. No notice. Nothing. I over flew it and verified that it was X'ed out and people were working. I landed at MadCow (Madison County Executive) and called home for a ride.

Turns out the crew showed up an announced. They had a full schedule, caught a break and were able to get there and get started. The airport manager had no advance notice (other than "sometime in the next couple of weeks").

My only problem with it was him telling me it was ok and I could just land on the closed runway! No thanks!

First world problems...sheesh!

Jim
 
My insurance man said landing anywhere that I as PIC determine is landable is covered. On airport, off airport, off airport at the airport.

I've landed sideways, frontwards, backwards, and every which way at uncontrolled fields. Taxi ways, fields, roads, you name it. I'm still here. :)

A good tip I picked up from a bush flying class is to fly an unknown field approach three times. Once at pattern altitude, once at ~300AGL, and once on the deck. Each elevation will reveal things. You won't see a ditch or a pothole until you do the deck run. You cannot see dips and holes from altitude. :)
 
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I am not sure why you would ever use the pavement with a nice piece of grass like that.
 
Definitely wouldn't drive on it. I'd just taxi down it once or twice and blast off. When my home airports runway was closed for resurfacing we just used the parallel taxiway and the airport manager didn't have a problem with it. Judging by what you said, your airport manager sounds like he is ok with you doing it.
 
FastEddieB said:
Tuesday, RWY 2/20, the only runway at my home base of Copperhill, TN (1A3, non-towered) was NOTAM'ed and marked closed for some resurfacing.

Timing was bad, because Monday I had just gotten my Sky Arrow back in the air with new ignition modules after extended down time.

I got to thinking about what I could do if I really wanted to go flying while the runway was closed.

I mentioned to the airport manager that I could almost take off from the ramp. He said although he could not specifically approve it, one of the airport tenants routinely landed his Champ in the grass alongside the runway. I learned to fly tailwheel in a J3 at Homestead General in a similar grassy area alongside the E/W runway there.

In any case, I walked Jake and Chowder along that grassy area yesterday. It's very wide, quite well manicured and at least as smooth as many of the grass fields I've been in, and at least 2,000' available before a bit of a "hump" for a taxiway:

15015634869_749e8effe5_c.jpg


It's certainly smoother than Peach State, which while rough was not problem :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEDltmHhwrE&list=UUIRbXga4oZn7XAUSLfkBO7w

Though its not in any way a defined runway, it sure looks like it could be used as such with no real risk.

I can't think of any reg that would render taking off and landing in that area illegal. Of course, if something happened there's always the catchall "Careless and Reckless" but beyond that I'd think I'd be good to go.

Any thoughts or experience doing this sort of thing? Especially interested in "cautionary tales"!

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Yes. At W42 the exact same set up exists, looks the same except the grass is a bit narrower. I've used it for 20 years. Never had a problem in Stearman, champ, t craft. 2000 feet. The one pictured is magnificent!
 
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Been doing it almost exclusively for the past five years with my Champ at the home airport. Never bothered to ask anyone or think about it that much. If anything I can say it's much easier on the tires. Just don't clip a runway light when you taxi back onto or across the runway and you'll probably never hear anything from anyone.
 
txflyer said:
A good tip I picked up from a bush flying class is to fly an unknown field approach three times. Once at pattern altitude, once at ~300AGL, and once on the deck. Each elevation will reveal things. You won't see a ditch or a pothole until you do the deck run. You cannot see dips and holes from altitude. :)
Click to expand...

Seems reasonable...but I have a dumb question. Why not just fly down low on your first pass? I can't think of anything you'd see from higher up that you wouldn't see on the deck run. Then again, I haven't done any real bush flying, so I may just not be aware of what's out there to get you.
 
I see it all the time at my home drome from the cub flyers. The grass is easier on the tundra tires and nobody seems to care that they aren't on the pavement.
 
jpower said:
Seems reasonable...but I have a dumb question. Why not just fly down low on your first pass? I can't think of anything you'd see from higher up that you wouldn't see on the deck run. Then again, I haven't done any real bush flying, so I may just not be aware of what's out there to get you.
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Obstacle clearance. If you are flying over a hemmed-in strip, you get a feel for how tight getting in and out would be while keeping an out in case the answer is "too tight".
 
FastEddieB said:
I mentioned to the airport manager that I could almost take off from the ramp. He said although he could not specifically approve it, one of the airport tenants routinely landed his Champ in the grass alongside the runway. I learned to fly tailwheel in a J3 at Homestead General in a similar grassy area alongside the E/W runway there.
!
Click to expand...

X51 is where I'm getting my PPL. I have my plane tied down at Roberts and I am using Orient flight school.
 
Might want to wait a while after a rain, too. Sometimes drainage can be a problem for something that isn't officially a rwy. Even if it IS a rwy I've seen low spots that collect water and get really soft after a rain.

I mentioned earlier - you can also check with the guy who mows it and ask him about and gotchas that he thinks might be out there. "Well, yeah, there is that section off the left side about halfway down that does have that dip in it, might oughta stay on the right side if'n you're gonna land on it."
 
jpower said:
Seems reasonable...but I have a dumb question. Why not just fly down low on your first pass? I can't think of anything you'd see from higher up that you wouldn't see on the deck run. Then again, I haven't done any real bush flying, so I may just not be aware of what's out there to get you.
Click to expand...

Not a dumb question.

I never took a bush flying class but I have tons of bush time. When I went to a new landing area, ( home made strip or off airport) I would fly over at about a thousand feet AGL. I would look over the general layout of the land, location of trees, drainage ditches, crashed airplanes, tire tracks of 4 wheelers or other planes that might have landed recently. Even moose tracks were helpful. Mountains, hills really didn't matter since I was landing anyway. Then take a low look, 100 feet or so. If I was still in doubt about the surface, I would drag a wheel on the surface and then fly over again to look at my track.

Once I was satisfied the wheels would not sink more than a few inches, I would set up the approach, touch the mains, and if everything still felt ok then I would let the nose gear touch. By that time I was usually at a point where I needed to stop. Sometimes I would use brakes, sometimes the surface would stop the plane.

Most of my off airport work was done in the C-206/207. But I did do a few off airport landings in the Piper Chieftain.
 
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jpower said:
Seems reasonable...but I have a dumb question. Why not just fly down low on your first pass? I can't think of anything you'd see from higher up that you wouldn't see on the deck run. Then again, I haven't done any real bush flying, so I may just not be aware of what's out there to get you.
Click to expand...


Because each elevation will show you things you can't see from the other heights.

The high pass will show you the general lay out and features, the lower pass will show you slopes, ridges, or like if the strip is high on one end, low on the other. In the bush, you most always land uphill even if there is a tailwind. You want to fly a pattern at these altitudes so that you can see the strip from the side as you fly downwind (or upwind) as well as the centerline passes.

And the low pass shows you the holes, dips, ditches, soil condition and grass height etc ...
 
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The transition from grass to pavement is the critical part usually.

A lot of airports like that dont want the grass strip to be an official runway, buecause you cant have approaches if you have an adjacent parallel runway that touches the pavement. FAA approach designers dont like that and usually wont allow the approaches.
 
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