unmistaking a mistake

[PoAdeleted5]

deleted.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I have a curiousity question about practical IFR flying. Say you've been out on a long flight, tired, getting beat up in light turb for hours and you exit a hold and do something not so smart and go the wrong direction and you are not in radar coverage, nor do you have a moving map GPS. It takes maybe 4 minutes for you to realize that things are no longer lined up and you suddenly realize you don't have a clue where you are at and high terrain abounds nearby.

Do you have a check and balance system to catch yourself doing something dumb before you get too far? How about getting your brain to accept that you really are 5 miles DME on radial 095 instead of 132 where you should be? How about undoing the mistake and getting back to where you need to be?

Accept your mistake immediately when properly recognized and impliment the proper remedial actions without delay.

 

[SkyHog]

impliment the proper remedial actions without delay.

I'm curious about this too. What would those actions be, if you were out of radio coverage. You can't communicate with ATC to tell them that you goofed and are turning back to the hold, so what do you do?

 

[The rogue]

I'd probably begin a maximum rate climb and ask the tower for help, while I was sorting out exactly where I thought I was....

91.3 Lets us do all that we need to.

Climb, Confess, Comply? That works in IMC too, right?

That's just my best guess though, I have like 1 hour actual right now anyway, so what is the "right" answer?

--Matt

 

[Michael]

I'm curious about this too. What would those actions be, if you were out of radio coverage. You can't communicate with ATC to tell them that you goofed and are turning back to the hold, so what do you do?

Well you can communicate with ATC, they just dont know where you are, Its probably best for everyone if you DO communicate with ATC and let them know your position, so they dont send someone else to that location. (they would be thinking you were on track miles away)

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I don't think there is a specific reg to cover this, but I like the idea of climbing while notifying atc and declaring if necessary (lost in high terrain, thats an emergency).... and then retracing your steps (or heading to lower terrain if there is such a choice and you remain aware of its location).
You get rep points from me for addressing 'what if's'. I have been blasted (in person, not here) for trying to figure out a fix for imagined scenarios - I think a prepared pilot is a better one!

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I'm curious about this too. What would those actions be, if you were out of radio coverage. You can't communicate with ATC to tell them that you goofed and are turning back to the hold, so what do you do?

Announce your mistake to ATC and if no immediate reply, flying back directly to where you were supposed to be in the hold should be fairly safe and simultaneously SQUAWK emergency on the transponder code.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

You get rep points from me for addressing 'what if's'. I have been blasted (in person, not here) for trying to figure out a fix for imagined scenarios - I think a prepared pilot is a better one!

Why would someone blast you for figuring out possible solutions in advance?

 

[wsuffa]

I'd climb, max rate, and call ATC and declare.

Since you had a navaid tuned in to execute the hold, you should be able to navigate to a known fix. Presumably, you could navigate back in the direction of the holding fix while climbing.

BTW, I've had just this scenario occur on an IPC. GPS was off, I was executing the missed approach, and for some reason I got the CDI heading set wrong, so I was aimed in the wrong direction. Granted, we were in radar coverage (and VMC, under the hood)... but the lesson still made an impression.

Great question, and a really good reason to have a moving map for situational awareness.

 

[spiderweb]

I have a curiousity question about practical IFR flying. Say you've been out on a long flight, tired, getting beat up in light turb for hours and you exit a hold and do something not so smart and go the wrong direction and you are not in radar coverage, nor do you have a moving map GPS. It takes maybe 4 minutes for you to realize that things are no longer lined up and you suddenly realize you don't have a clue where you are at and high terrain abounds nearby.

Do you have a check and balance system to catch yourself doing something dumb before you get too far? How about getting your brain to accept that you really are 5 miles DME on radial 095 instead of 132 where you should be? How about undoing the mistake and getting back to where you need to be?

Larry, there is a post on the Red Board about this very subject. What I try to do is to veryify everything even once on the FAC. "OK, radio is tuned to 117.9, that's the ILS, it is idented, the course is 095, and I'm flying the needles. . . ." That's how I did it as a student, and I caught a lot of mistakes that way.

 

[bbchien]

Larry, there is a post on the Red Board about this very subject. What I try to do is to veryify everything even once on the FAC. "OK, radio is tuned to 117.9, that's the ILS, it is idented, the course is 095, and I'm flying the needles. . . ." That's how I did it as a student, and I caught a lot of mistakes that way.

I do everything verbally starting with,
"If power is lost immediately after rotation at 105 mph, we clean it up and go"
to
"Tuned: 108.2 Ident
Tuned: 108.2 Ident
Established: 2300
Miss is climbing Right turn to 2600 then Direct VOR."
to
"Three Green on Final. Commitment to land"
I find verbalization is very helpful at the start of one engine inoperative drill.

But if I am that disoriented that I am just realizing I'm way the heck into OZ, it's Max rate climb and turn to the now estimated location for the MAP, Declare Missed to Approach or Center....

 

[spiderweb]

And as others have mentioned above, having moving map with terrain is an EXCELLENT backup. You might be way off course, but you can see what lies beneath (or above!).

 

[wesleyj]

I talk to myself about most everthing I do in an airplane, gives me great checks and balances, also insures that i am carrying on an intelligent conversation, my helo CFI gets a real laugh when i cuss myself out for not doing something properly.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I'd climb, max rate, and call ATC and declare.

Since you had a navaid tuned in to execute the hold, you should be able to navigate to a known fix. Presumably, you could navigate back in the direction of the holding fix while climbing.

quote]

The problem with a MAX climb is there may be traffic up there. Maybe just a little climb (enough to allow for terrain) in the turn until you're headed back towards your hold fix resuming last assigned altitude asap looks safer for all concerned.

It depends a lot on if and how much you started to descend upon exiting the hold.

 

[SkykingC310]

The problem with a MAX climb is there may be traffic up there. Maybe just a little climb (enough to allow for terrain) in the turn until you're headed back towards your hold fix resuming last assigned altitude asap looks safer for all concerned.

This was my first thought as I read the responses also Dave. If I'm in a holding pattern at a NavAid, there's a possibility that other traffic is holding in the exact same pattern at a different altitude. If this were the case, a climb could put me in a worse place. The safest thing to do, I think, would be a standard rate turn direct to the fix. I would make my turn on the holding side of the fix. The old addage is true: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. In that order. Don't forsake flying the plane so that you can tell ATC that you've made a mistake. Always fly the airplane.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

The problem with a MAX climb is there may be traffic up there. Maybe just a little climb (enough to allow for terrain)

The "big sky, small airplane" theory is valid; any theory based on "small mountain" is invalid. If there is terrain higher than your current altitude anywhere in the general area then a max climb is well advised. If you climb at all, climb at max rate to whatever altitude will top any potential terrain conflicts.

 

[poadeleted20]

If I was in Western Colorado at 10,000 feet, I might make such a climb. In Eastern Maryland, I would not. If you know where you are (and one assumes you do, since you know which way you actually flow, for how long, and at what speed), you should be able to ascertain very quickly what the MOCA/MORA is, and then make a good judgement on that basis.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

The "big sky, small airplane" theory is valid; any theory based on "small mountain" is invalid. If there is terrain higher than your current altitude anywhere in the general area then a max climb is well advised. If you climb at all, climb at max rate to whatever altitude will top any potential terrain conflicts.

If the situational awareness and loss of altitude has degenerated so bad in those four minutes that CFIT is distinctly imminent, one of the main benefits of pursuing a MAX climb is a slower airspeed, allowing for a good deal steeper than standard rate 180 degree turn, back to your six. That previously flown vector is the only place in the big ol' sky where that particular misguided IFR pilot knows for sure that there is no terrain and that they can quickly get to.

In the hypothetical case described, the pilot is fatigued and not on top of their game so, one question they must try to answer accurately and immediately is, can they bank and turn faster than standard rate like they practiced in their IFR training or should they just mosy on around at standard rate. One can alternately be better than the other, depending on what the pilot's really got left in themselves.

 

[anonn]

I'm curious about this too. What would those actions be, if you were out of radio coverage. You can't communicate with ATC to tell them that you goofed and are turning back to the hold, so what do you do?

Rush to a computer, log in, and ask what should I do. That would be the approach of some.

 

[SkykingC310]

Here's something else to consider. Aren't NavAids positioned atop surrounding terrain so as to be useful at longer ranges? If you are holding over a NavAid, I would think you'd be above the surrounding terrain? I'm sure there are cases against this thought, but I think a majority of the situations, as described in this thread, would be clear of obsticles.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Here's something else to consider. Aren't NavAids positioned atop surrounding terrain so as to be useful at longer ranges? If you are holding over a NavAid, I would think you'd be above the surrounding terrain? I'm sure there are cases against this thought, but I think a majority of the situations, as described in this thread, would be clear of obsticles.

Just from looking at many mountains and charts, I thnk most VORs are put where they are useful, not on the highest mountain peak, and a lot of the highest points are pretty inaccessible anyway (think power and maintenance).
In fact, some low level airways are put along the valleys so the vors are down there too, getting off the airway/published route can be a noisy proposition.

 

[kath]

one of the main benefits of pursuing a MAX climb is a slower airspeed, allowing for a good deal steeper than standard rate 180 degree turn, back to your six.

Why not execute a STEEP turn? Well, steeper than standard rate anyway? If I'm going to turn 180 degrees, in mystery mountains, I'd want to have as small a turning radius as possible. Doesn't need to be 45 degrees or anything... but what about 30 degrees or something you know you can do under the hood in a pinch? In this situation, is there any point in turning at standard rate anymore?

--Kath

 

[infotango]

The "big sky, small airplane" theory is valid; any theory based on "small mountain" is invalid. If there is terrain higher than your current altitude anywhere in the general area then a max climb is well advised. If you climb at all, climb at max rate to whatever altitude will top any potential terrain conflicts.

Not IFR, but wouldn't you want max ANGLE rather than max rate? Seems speed would be slower, and you would climb more for a given distance, which is good for avoiding mountains which may be there?

 

[bbchien]

Why not execute a STEEP turn? Well, steeper than standard rate anyway? If I'm going to turn 180 degrees, in mystery mountains, I'd want to have as small a turning radius as possible. Doesn't need to be 45 degrees or anything... but what about 30 degrees or something you know you can do under the hood in a pinch? In this situation, is there any point in turning at standard rate anymore?

--Kath

You do as much as you can handle safely w/o stall/spin in IMC. I contend that if you have screwed up this badly already, a 30 degree banked turn at Vx leaves you little margin against screwing up even worse, and your performance has ALREADY been poor. Remember, Aviation DEATH is a sting of events. Do NOT further contribute to that string.

Like the Hairpin turn at 800 AGL on departure- if it's from a long runway, you might make it. But if you screw up you die.

 

[spiderweb]

You do as much as you can handle safely w/o stall/spin in IMC. I contend that if you have screwed up this badly already, a 30 degree banked turn at Vx leaves you little margin against screwing up even worse, and your performance has ALREADY been poor. Remember, Aviation DEATH is a sting of events. Do NOT further contribute to that string.

Like the Hairpin turn at 800 AGL on departure- if it's from a long runway, you might make it. But if you screw up you die.

Bruce never gives us the sugarcoated version, and I hope we can take what he says to heart!

 

[kath]

Aviation DEATH is a sting of events.

Yup, I imagine that would sting. A lot.
(Sorry Bruce couldn't resist! Keep that non-sugarcoated wisdom comin'!)

--Kath

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Why not execute a STEEP turn? Well, steeper than standard rate anyway? If I'm going to turn 180 degrees, in mystery mountains, I'd want to have as small a turning radius as possible. Doesn't need to be 45 degrees or anything... but what about 30 degrees or something you know you can do under the hood in a pinch? In this situation, is there any point in turning at standard rate anymore?

--Kath

My answer to that important question is given in paragraph 2* of the post you referenced, as well as by Dr. Bruce's post.

*In the hypothetical case described, the pilot is fatigued and not on top of their game so, one question they must try to answer accurately and immediately is, can they bank and turn faster than standard rate like they practiced in their IFR training or should they just mosy on around at standard rate. One can alternately be better than the other, depending on what the pilot's really got left in themselves.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Yup, I imagine that would sting. A lot.
--Kath

Truthfully, it doesn't hurt much at all. Now your family and friends, it hurts them a bunch!

 

[AirBaker]

...you don't have a clue where you are at and high terrain abounds nearby.

Hopefully the charts would have been out and you can identify where you are. (VOR radial, DME, etc.)

Man, situational awareness is a biggie while IFR. I'd get back to where I was supposed to be.

 

[jdwatson]

... ditto above ...

Aviate:
Depending on the speed of your plane, you still might be near the MSA on the approach chart. Start climbing to at least that, heck chances are you're in the same MEF block on your enroute chart... go for that. Getting to some place safe is paramount. I really don't think it matters where as long as you don't have a chance of spotting mountain goats in clouds (Thanks Mr. Larson).

Navigate:
I like the 180 turn back down the path of whence you came. I would go back to the holding fix or the nearest navaid if I was closer to one over the other.

Communicate:
If I've really completely lost situational awareness in IMC, that's an emergency in my book and I'd declare it and squawk it until I'm back in control.

Prevention:
Once back on terra firma, I'd be up a CFI-I butt to ensure this could never happen to me again. A thorough & frank review of the all the events up to the loss of situational awareness. Now rebuild the procedures with new checks & balances. Find the blind/weak spots. Practice, practice, practice.

 

[Arnold]

I have a curiousity question about practical IFR flying. Say you've been out on a long flight, tired, getting beat up in light turb for hours and you exit a hold and do something not so smart and go the wrong direction and you are not in radar coverage, nor do you have a moving map GPS. It takes maybe 4 minutes for you to realize that things are no longer lined up and you suddenly realize you don't have a clue where you are at and high terrain abounds nearby.

I think you may have hit on one of the nightmare scenarios that keep pilot examiners awake at night.

You of course head back the way you came and hope you can do so without hitting anything. There is a good chance that if you already in this deep a hole you will not find your way out. If you are in ATC radio communication you confess your sin as soon as you can so they can move any other traffic. You state in your post that you are not in Radar coverage so basically they cannot help with the immediate problem, but you can ask that they take future action to help, such as clearance to climb back to radar covereage and vectors along with considerable additional hand holding to the nearest aerodrome as you are clealry no longer medically fit to fly (at least for this day) due to fatigue. [I once truly angered an asst. chief pilot when I refused to taxi for this very reason. On the way to the gate at the end of my 16hr duty day I started spacing things. They wanted me to reposition the aircraft after the pax deplaned and I refused - they backed off when I suggested we discuss it with the union and the FAA noting that the regs had just been changed to make pilots responsible for taxi incidents as if they were in flight without regard to intent.]

Do you have a check and balance system to catch yourself doing something dumb before you get too far? How about getting your brain to accept that you really are 5 miles DME on radial 095 instead of 132 where you should be? How about undoing the mistake and getting back to where you need to be?

There are no fool proof "checks and balance system." Even airline crews with the enormous checks and balances built in to their system kill themselves (and their pax). It is adherence to good practices that prevents what you describe. The key is to avoid complacency through the rigorous use of procedure. Fly an IPC every six months and if you haven't flown IFR much more than the min the regs require, don't fly IFR alone if you are rusty even if you are legal. Maintain situational awreness. Keep the charts out, if there is nothing to do at any given moment then you are being complacent, there is always something you can do in airplane when on an instrument flight plan.

Aviating is not fool proof. You cannot remove all the risk. You must adopt a risk management attitude with self imposed rules you don't deviate from. Those rules may change as you get more experience and they may change as you age, but they should only change during careful reflection on the ground. Set your limits and observe your limits and you will be more likely to avoid the hypothetical you just mentioned. If this happened for real, then you need to consider whether or not you are safe to fly IFR without significantly more training.