United and American sued over WTC crashes

masloki

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http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/09/11/usa-sept11-airlines-idINL1E8KB2SM20120911

The case at factual level:
* WTC developer says United, American airlines negligent
* Court to decide if developer was already compensated
* Judge says a jury may need to resolve the dispute

But, at the logical level, suing the airlines for this seems like a stretch. If they could sue the atmosphere for the air that supported the planes, they probably would.
 
http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/09/11/usa-sept11-airlines-idINL1E8KB2SM20120911

The case at factual level:
* WTC developer says United, American airlines negligent
* Court to decide if developer was already compensated
* Judge says a jury may need to resolve the dispute

But, at the logical level, suing the airlines for this seems like a stretch. If they could sue the atmosphere for the air that supported the planes, they probably would.

It's like suing Ford for all the deaths one would cause, if you drove an F150 into a building. Stupid.

The only reason I see them doing this, is the building was suposed to withstand such an attack, and it didn't. If they can shift blame for the attack off of themselves, it might reduce the lawsuits being thrown at them.
 
I guess the more I think about it, that would be like suing Boeing, not Ford. A better analogy would be if I broke into Hertz and stole a Ford truck, and drove it into the building, that they would sue Hertz.

That's not as stupid.
 
The only reason I see them doing this, is the building was suposed to withstand such an attack, and it didn't.
I somehow doubt "able to survive intentional impact by a large, fully loaded and fueled airliner flying at high speed" was among the design requirements for any of those buildings.

I can only hope the lawsuit gets either dismissed, or the jury deliberates for less than ten minutes before telling the plaintiffs to take a hike. We have inflicted enough damage on ourselves over this already, without destroying two more airlines.
 
* WTC developer says United, American airlines negligent

I have a hard time swallowing the claim of negligence, given the unprecedented strategy of the hijackers. And weren't the security measures in use at the time mandated by the feds?
 
I somehow doubt "able to survive intentional impact by a large, fully loaded and fueled airliner flying at high speed" was among the design requirements for any of those buildings.

The buildings were brought down by fire. There have been other high-rise fires that didn't end with a collapse. It is a reasonable discussion whether the buildings were built as well as they should have.
 
I'm still of the opinion that the buildings DID survive the attack. They stood long enough for everyone who COULD get out, did. Yes, people were killed in the initial impact, and people were trapped above the impact floors. But pretty much, those buildings held up.
 
I somehow doubt "able to survive intentional impact by a large, fully loaded and fueled airliner flying at high speed" was among the design requirements for any of those buildings.

"architect Minoru Yamasaki designed the World Trade Center towers to withstand a collision with a Boeing 707 airplane (Federal Emergency Management Agency 2002). The Boeing 707 is similar to the Boeing 767s that actually crashed into the towers, the main differences being that the 767 is slightly heavier and slower. The impact from the plane that hit Tower One was well within the force limits of the design and the impact from the second plane was only ten percent above the force that Tower Two was designed to absorb"

http://www.science-writing.org/id29.html

Just a quick search. Could probably find more.
 
"architect Minoru Yamasaki designed the World Trade Center towers to withstand a collision with a Boeing 707 airplane (Federal Emergency Management Agency 2002). The Boeing 707 is similar to the Boeing 767s that actually crashed into the towers, the main differences being that the 767 is slightly heavier and slower. The impact from the plane that hit Tower One was well within the force limits of the design and the impact from the second plane was only ten percent above the force that Tower Two was designed to absorb"

http://www.science-writing.org/id29.html

Just a quick search. Could probably find more.

Even that article says the buildings absorbed the impact. Here's another simplified explanation of essentially the same thing:
http://www.asse.org/practicespecialties/docs/prac_spec_analysis_wtc.pdf

Of course, we all know the government did it.
 
I somehow doubt "able to survive intentional impact by a large, fully loaded and fueled airliner flying at high speed" was among the design requirements for any of those buildings.
In fact, being hit by a large plane WAS in the design criteria. It had happened before (a B-25 had hit the Empire State Building in 1956).
The failure mode of the building under the heat of burning fuel rather than the impact of the aircraft itself was something they hadn't accounted for.

Still, nobody is going to win this one other than the lawyers.
 
I'm still of the opinion that the buildings DID survive the attack. They stood long enough for everyone who COULD get out, did. Yes, people were killed in the initial impact, and people were trapped above the impact floors. But pretty much, those buildings held up.

There were actually some who made it down from above the impact floor. It was a matter of which of the two stair towers you headed for if you tried.
 
In fact, being hit by a large plane WAS in the design criteria. It had happened before (a B-25 had hit the Empire State Building in 1956).

Hey don't beat him up to much over being a little uneducated about such things. At least he spells well.

(That was a little shot back from a previous post :))
 
Hey don't beat him up to much over being a little uneducated about such things. At least he spells well.

(That was a little shot back from a previous post :))
Indeed I do. I find that taking the extra few seconds to find and correct typos and obvious spelling and grammatical errors tends to prevent such errors from drawing attention away from the message. That said, I'm certain a professional editor would still take issue with my writing.

And I will stand by my original statement. It would be reasonable to assume that in an unintentional collision, the airliner would most likely be traveling at lower speed, and would more than likely be at a lower weight. I believe the assumption was that any such impact would be from an airliner looking for JFK or Newark. I sincerely doubt that the design criteria included being able to withstand a deliberate, direct impact by a fully fueled airliner traveling at .6 or .7 Mach.
 
Indeed I do. I find that taking the extra few seconds to find and correct typos and obvious spelling and grammatical errors tends to prevent such errors from drawing attention away from the message. That said, I'm certain a professional editor would still take issue with my writing.

About half the worlds I type are misspelled the first time I write them. After I re-read what I type about 7-8 times, it gets close enough for people to get my message.

I am sure I spend far more time proofing my posts then you do, as my condition requires it. But such is life.

Good thing I am fairly competent in areas that don't require perfect spelling, and when I speak I come across adequately intelligent.

P.S. This post has taken about 5 minutes to write, to give you an idea of the level of effort I apply to them.
 
I feel your pain. I know how to spell, but my typing is simply atrocious. I spend as much time hunting and fixing typos as I do typing it the first time. So welcome to the club.
 
I have a hard time swallowing the claim of negligence, given the unprecedented strategy of the hijackers. And weren't the security measures in use at the time mandated by the feds?

If it was then you could argue that the security measures were the minimum required security measures, nobody is stopping you from going above and beyond the minimum.

I find it hard to not hold the airlines somewhat liable. It was their planes and the security measures they had in place apparently didn't work.
 
I find it hard to not hold the airlines somewhat liable. It was their planes and the security measures they had in place apparently didn't work.

Well, I disagree. No one expected it, and if any airline took it upon themselves to install the security measures required, they would most likely either be unable to compete with the other airlines, or scare off/inconvenience there passengers.
 
Well, I disagree. No one expected it, and if any airline took it upon themselves to install the security measures required, they would most likely either be unable to compete with the other airlines, or scare off/inconvenience there passengers.

So?

Same story, mortgages. Yesterday the Treasury finally lowered their stake below 50% in AIG who should have been dissolved.

Airlines are responsible for things that happen on their watch.

Banks and insurers are responsible for things that happen on their watch.

Oops. Guess the rules of the game changed. Nevermind. Why play a game with rigged rules?

They win (lawyers, bankers, politicians, company execs) we lose ... And we get to pay for it.

Every single time. Count on it.

I agree with the comment that the only winners here will be the lawyers. They're already winning in billable time.
 
Well, I disagree. No one expected it, and if any airline took it upon themselves to install the security measures required, they would most likely either be unable to compete with the other airlines, or scare off/inconvenience there passengers.

And now we have something worse.

Not only that WE now have to pay for security to protect THEIR airplanes.
 
...I find that taking the extra few seconds to find and correct typos and obvious spelling and grammatical errors tends to prevent such errors from drawing attention away from the message...

+1

I'm sure we're not the only ones who find them distracting.
 
If it was then you could argue that the security measures were the minimum required security measures, nobody is stopping you from going above and beyond the minimum.

I find it hard to not hold the airlines somewhat liable. It was their planes and the security measures they had in place apparently didn't work.

Hindsight is 20/20. There's no such thing as perfect security. It's not possible to protect against every conceivable form of attack, and it's fundamentally unjust to penalize people for not having a crystal ball.

Law.com defines negligence as "failure to exercise the care toward others which a reasonable or prudent person would do in the circumstances, or taking action which such a reasonable person would not..." Arguing that the targeted airlines were not exercising the care that a reasonable or prudent person would is not tenable, because the security holes that were exploited existed across the entire industry, not just those two companies, and there was no one calling for them to be closed prior to the attacks.

http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1314
 
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Hindsight is 20/20. There's no such thing as perfect security. It's not possible to protect against every conceivable form of attack, and it's fundamentally unjust to penalize people for not having a crystal ball.

Law.com defines negligence as "failure to exercise the care toward others which a reasonable or prudent person would do in the circumstances, or taking action which such a reasonable person would not..." Arguing that the targeted airlines were not exercising the care that a reasonable or prudent person would is not tenable, because the security holes that were exploited existed across the entire industry, not just those two companies, and there was no one calling for them to be closed prior to the attacks.

http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1314

Is bringing a knife onto an airplane "every conceivable form of attack"? I don't think you need a crystal ball to predict that someone will try to do that.

It was their airplanes and they didn't protect them. Now we all have to foot the cost for something they should've done in the first place and should still be doing.
 
"Is bringing a knife onto an airplane "every conceivable form of attack"?

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-528967.html

There appears to be some confusion whether or not box cutter were allowed on the aircraft prior to 9/11.

But I feel, if the screeners were told yes they were allowed, There is no liability on the screeners or airline.

If the rule was no box cutter, the screening company is liable, not the airline. Even if the airlines told the screener companies that box cutters were not allowed, and they still made it through thier checkpoint, the screeners are responsible. It's not like United Airlines had thier own employees there that were trained by them personally.
 
"architect Minoru Yamasaki designed the World Trade Center towers to withstand a collision with a Boeing 707 airplane (Federal Emergency Management Agency 2002). The Boeing 707 is similar to the Boeing 767s that actually crashed into the towers, the main differences being that the 767 is slightly heavier and slower. The impact from the plane that hit Tower One was well within the force limits of the design and the impact from the second plane was only ten percent above the force that Tower Two was designed to absorb"

http://www.science-writing.org/id29.html

Just a quick search. Could probably find more.

The buildings survived the impact. They survived it just fine.

They did NOT survive the post crash fire, and that took high temp jet fueled fires to weaken the steel to the point of failure. And fireproofing on the steel only buys you time.... its not ironclad.
 
+1

I'm sure we're not the only ones who find them distracting.

Below, you should have 4 dots in your quotation mark. The elipse, and the period.

The last sentience is border line run-on.

I know I can't spell and have issues due to my severe dyslexia, but figured I would point this out.

You know.. glass houses and all that.

Hindsight is 20/20. There's no such thing as perfect security. It's not possible to protect against every conceivable form of attack, and it's fundamentally unjust to penalize people for not having a crystal ball.

Law.com defines negligence as "failure to exercise the care toward others which a reasonable or prudent person would do in the circumstances, or taking action which such a reasonable person would not..." Arguing that the targeted airlines were not exercising the care that a reasonable or prudent person would is not tenable, because the security holes that were exploited existed across the entire industry, not just those two companies, and there was no one calling for them to be closed prior to the attacks.

http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1314
 
The airlines accepted minimum standards. That's the argument both for and against.
 
The airlines accepted minimum standards. That's the argument both for and against.

What's the point of defining a minimum standard if it isn't good enough?
 
We can take that argument to the next level if we like...

The consumer accepted minimum standards. So it's our fault :)

Did they, or were they significantly underinformed about the security of a typical cockpit prior to this event? That's going to be one of the hinge-points of the case. Did airlines know there was a cockpit intrusion/suicide hijacker risk.

Airlines certainly knew. The FedEx episode where their own employee beat the rest of the flight crew nearly to death in 1994, proved there was a significant problem if the wrong person entered a cockpit.

Everyone in Aviation knew about that episode and the guy wasn't even a "terrorist". No one did anything about it.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705

He beat co-workers with a hammer for money. Wasn't even politically motivated.

If folks are saying airlines were "surprised" that there would be people who'd happily do the same or worse for political reasons, I call BS on that idea. Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie made that abundantly clear in 1988.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103

They're going to settle out of court for a lot of money, if the judge rules the plaintiff wasn't made whole via insurance. NY law says he can't get paid twice, so this is just a tap dance to see if they get off easy by the judge saying he was already paid for his damages.

If damages were more than the insurance and the judge says he's allowed to sue them, expect a settlement with the airlines for big bucks where a) they assume no guilt, and b) they don't have to have their weak sauce security measures and breaches dragged through open court. That'd be a PR disaster.

There's absolutely no way the airlines will ever take this to trial. And he and his lawyers know it. This is just the sharks circling and the negotiations and a dollar amount have already been mentioned across a private conference room table.

The judge surely knows this too. It's basically his/her call (I didn't look) as to whether the airlines hand over a check. It's a done deal.

Nothing the airlines can say can make them look good in front of a jury and the press. Lose-lose for them, they'll cut their losses and pay up.
 
Did they, or were they significantly underinformed about the security of a typical cockpit prior to this event? That's going to be one of the hinge-points of the case. Did airlines know there was a cockpit intrusion/suicide hijacker risk.

Well, this can get real philosophical... so let's begin.

The United States of America is not a government with a people. We are a people with a government. This means our government agencies belong to us, and are our responsibility. The FAA and it's regulations, are the regulations as the people have deemed them. It then becomes our responsibility to know what our government organization that is speaking on our behalf is recommending as safety standards.

The information is public record. As are the violations of every airline. If we as a consumer are ill informed (and I am), then we have no one to blame but ourselves, as we failed to know what our own organizations that are working on our behalf are doing.

I am a realist as well, so I know not every passenger knows what's going on, just like I know everyone who signs a mortgage did not read and understand everything they signed. But that does not make it less our fault.
 
Below, you should have 4 dots in your quotation mark. The elipse, and the period.

Thanks. I'm always glad to learn something new.

The last sentience is border line run-on.

I'm not clear on why. Can you explain?
 
Who are we picking on? I must have missed that part.

me. :)

And I don't blame you, as you didn't really know. I only started this side conversation because the original person in this thread had made comments in another one, so I was poking fun back.

As for the run-on, I was not sure, so that's why I said borderline. It's a long sentence, and seems to run on.

"Arguing that the targeted airlines were not exercising the care that a reasonable or prudent person would is not tenable, because the security holes that were exploited existed across the entire industry, not just those two companies, and there was no one calling for them to be closed prior to the attacks."
 
Well, this can get real philosophical... so let's begin.

The United States of America is not a government with a people. We are a people with a government. This means our government agencies belong to us, and are our responsibility. The FAA and it's regulations, are the regulations as the people have deemed them. It then becomes our responsibility to know what our government organization that is speaking on our behalf is recommending as safety standards.

The information is public record. As are the violations of every airline. If we as a consumer are ill informed (and I am), then we have no one to blame but ourselves, as we failed to know what our own organizations that are working on our behalf are doing.

I am a realist as well, so I know not every passenger knows what's going on, just like I know everyone who signs a mortgage did not read and understand everything they signed. But that does not make it less our fault.

So you actually think the general public is responsible for the actions of the individual deep specialists hired to be the experts in all the specialties the largest corporation in the country works on?

Make no doubt, government in all its forms makes up the largest business entity in the land, which we ARE responsible for creating, as well as letting its budget get completely out of control. I agree with you there.

But if I hire GE to build a locomotive, it doesn't matter how hard I want to police their work, without hiring another locomotive expert to check it, I'll never know where they cut corners.

Same thing with government. But we don't have two. So we say, "Okay, let's make sure government has built in checks and balances."

Now if you're saying that we've done a very bad job putting checks and balances into various government agencies, that I can certainly agree with.

In fact, most of the time the non-partisan GAO agrees also.

But, realistically, when did you last get a say in it?

A modern example is DHS. It is a direct result of 9/11.

Here's some info on that lovely 22 agency mash-up. If KPMG can't get a handle on it, what makes you think an individual Citizen can?

(From Wikipedia...)

"Audit of expenditures
The DHS independent auditor is KPMG, one of the Big Four audit firms.[16] Due to the level of material weaknesses identified, KPMG were unable to audit the DHS financial statements for FY 2010.[16] KPMG were unable to express an audit opinion on the FY 2009,[17] FY 2008,[18] FY 2007,[19] FY 2005,[20] and FY 2003[21] financial statements. Attempts to access the reports for FY 2006 and FY 2004 within the 'information for citizens' portal met with a 404 error.[22] The Message from the DHS Chief Financial Officer in the FY 2010 report states 'This Annual Financial Report (AFR) is our principal financial statement of accountability to the President, Congress and the American public. The AFR gives a comprehensive view of the Department’s financial activities and demonstrates the Department’s stewardship of taxpayer dollars.'[23] The Message from the DHS Chief Financial Officer concludes 'I am extremely proud of the Department’s accomplishments ... we will continue to build upon our successes.'[23] The Secretary of Homeland Security endorsed this message saying that the DHS is 'continuing to be responsible stewards of taxpayer resources. The scope of our mission is broad, challenging, and vital to the security of the Nation ... Thank you for your partnership and collaboration. Yours very truly, Janet Napolitano.'[24]"

My contention is that DHS was created for exactly that purpose. To completely obfuscate and bury auditors do deep, no one would ever be able to unscramble it. With no successful audits in almost a decade, how can anyone be responsible to say anything other than "disband it into manageable chunks again"? And that isn't going to happen.

I believe the government outgrew our ability to manage it effectively long before I was born. It may have just barely been under control in my grandfather's youth, because the general culture at the time was self-based. You took care of your own problems because there was no government big enough to help.

And you looked to your local community and not a national media for your discussion topics of the day, which led to much more focus on real local problems than made up national crises.

More local brain-time spent on local things, if you will.

People were more committed to neighbors than national politics diluted down into vague ideological platforms.

So back to your point, when did you have a say in the creation or the methodology of the checks and balances to control DHS? I can stipulate that maybe older stodgy agencies might be all messed up, but this new one was an opportunity to do it right.

Did we? Did we have a choice?

At the opening of the 107th Congress the Senate was split 50/50. With the incoming President, the Senate majority went to Republicans by the tie-breaking vote of the VP. In June, Jim Jeffords announced he was switching Parties to Independent from Republican and would join the Democratic Caucus, swinging the Senate one vote the other way.

If you believe the Two Party system and that theyre always at odds so that there is a check and balance there, it would theoretically be impossible to get a better setup for a reasonable discussion of the wisdom or details of the creation of the largest single government agency in the history of the Republic than that.

Dead tied.

48 Republicans, 41 Democrats, and one Independent voted in favor of creation. 90% of the Senate.

8 Democrats, 1 Independent voted against.

Frank Murkowski of Alaska did not vote.

So I contend, that you and I have zero control over these people whatsoever. If I counted my friends in 2002, I'm certain there would not have been 90% in favor of the creation of DHS. Not by a long shot.

But you see, someone mailed some Anthrax spores to a Senator. They voted out of fear for their own hides, not the will of The People.

These same people made the FAA run on continuing resolutions for budget for a decade. No one I ever talked to throughout that time felt that was appropriate. Did you? Did they listen to you?

Never once did the Congress or Senate even care until very recently.

If everyone you run into says something isn't right, and the elected officials of the Republic are doing it anyway... How is it even possible to make the argument that the people are responsible or even have any say in these matters anymore?

Your letter is filed in File 13 and the politicians vote whichever way they want.

I have no intent for this post to be partisan political commentary. It's meant as facts to question your premise that "We The People" have any control over our government whatsoever at this point in time.

I have to use political party names to show the closeness of the Senate in the above example, but they could just as easily be labeled Party A and Party B.

If you think the average Jane or Joe has time to watch over FAA experts hired to do a job, it ain't happening. We can't even get the Senate to listen to us.
 
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