Uninstall beacon?

azure

azure

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azure
Is it legally possible to uninstall a flashing beacon in an aircraft that has an approved wingtip strobe anti-collision lighting system?

My 177RG's beacon is kaput. The bulb terminals were fried by a power surge that was apparently generated by the flasher unit. It appears that Cessna no longer supplies a flasher assembly that is physically mountable in the tail section of the aircraft. My mech obtained the flasher that supersedes the original part number from an authorized Cessna dealer and could not fit it physically through the hole.

My other remaining options are to order a third party self-contained upgrade (probably Whelen LED, think a week at least to ship and install) or try my luck that a salvage yard might just HAPPEN to have an original flasher that will fit this airplane. I'm trying to get the plane back up in time to take my instrument checkride before the end of the month, after which I will have to retake the written.

Since the airplane has wingtip strobes that are a separately approved anti-collision lighting system, the only reason to try to get the beacon back in operation is to satisfy the FAA Chief Counsel's Murphy letter, which says that since both beacon and strobes are installed and approved, they are part of the same system. Neglecting the slippery slope THAT logic implies, I'm wondering if it might be simpler (and still legal) to simply uninstall the beacon so it is no longer there to be subject to the Murphy "gotcha".
 
Here's the "Murphy letter":
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2011/Murphy.pdf

That's what happens when lawyers try to interpret airworthiness issues without talking to the airworthiness people -- they assume the beacon is necessary to meet the anti-collision lighting system requirements, and sometimes it is, but sometimes it isn't.

The big question here is whether your wingtip strobes alone meet the requirements in the aircraft certification rules to suffice as an approved anti-collision lighting system -- many don't. If they do, then you can certainly remove the flashing beacon, but I'm pretty sure that would be a major alteration to the aircraft requiring field approval, since your equipment list probably shows it as an R-item, and it is a change to the basic design of your anti-collision lighting. If they were all OEM equipment, then Cessna can probably give you the answer.

But I do know quite a few folks in the Grumman world who've replaced their flashing beacon with a 3-point strobe system under an STC, so it's fundamentally possible with the right paperwork and adequate strobes. Once that's done, then the beacon-less airplane would be legally airworthy in its approved altered state.
 
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Okay, I am not 100% sure they are independently approved. I could swear they were Whelens in that I have seen a Whelen brochure somewhere in my aircraft papers, but I cannot find it in the subset of the papers that I keep at home and a quick look through the airframe log doesn't reveal a Whelen strobes installation.

Assuming my current strobes are not sufficient... what about an old-style rotating beacon? A PoA member has one of these for sale, claims it is electrically clean and noiseless. Cessna stopped using this type of beacon sometime in the late '60s. The first 177RG was made in the 1970-1 time frame. Would field approval be possible for this kind of unit?
 
azure said:
Okay, I am not 100% sure they are independently approved. I could swear they were Whelens in that I have seen a Whelen brochure somewhere in my aircraft papers, but I cannot find it in the subset of the papers that I keep at home and a quick look through the airframe log doesn't reveal a Whelen strobes installation.
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The fact that they are Whelen strobes doesn't make them approved or disapproved. The requirements in the certification rules for coverage, color, and intensity do. Usually the limitation on 2-point wing-only installations is visibilty from behind. You'll really have to check on this with the data on what's installed in your airplane. Again, if it came from the factory that way, Cessna will know.

Assuming my current strobes are not sufficient... what about an old-style rotating beacon? A PoA member has one of these for sale, claims it is electrically clean and noiseless. Cessna stopped using this type of beacon sometime in the late '60s. The first 177RG was made in the 1970-1 time frame. Would field approval be possible for this kind of unit?
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That is certainly possible, but I suspect there are better options, one of which may be the replacement of your tail position light with a combination position/strobe unit to to make your 2-point strobe system into a 3-point strobe system and complete the required coverage. Your local FSDO Airworthiness folks can probably provide good advice on this. You can also find a lot of information in Whelen's catalog, including the lighting coverage requirements -- and see the A500A combination tail position/anti-collision strobe light that goes into the same hole as your existing tail position light.
 
> Is it legally possible to uninstall a flashing beacon in an aircraft that
> has an approved wingtip strobe anti-collision lighting system?

How is the beacon listed on your airworthiness docs? Std, Req'd? Optional?
 
rainsux said:
> Is it legally possible to uninstall a flashing beacon in an aircraft that
> has an approved wingtip strobe anti-collision lighting system?

How is the beacon listed on your airworthiness docs? Std, Req'd? Optional?
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The beacon is an R item. I knew it would require at least a 337.

We finally decided to try to get a Whelen halogen flashing beacon from PAC. They said they could get it overnight for about $50 extra. Aircraft Spruce does not stock them and Chief could not get one to me before Monday unless I paid an arm and a leg for Saturday delivery. If this fails I will have a beacon that costs $130 on Monday for $250 or so. I just don't know what else to do at this point.
 
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Cessna never used Whelen as OEM equipment. any of their equipment is added with a STC with the required 337 entering it in the aircraft history records.

The aircraft must comply with 91.205 (b)-11. That's why it's an (R)

any substituted after market equipment must be a STC item, and added the same way any after market equipment is added. the field approval method will take too long to get her where she needs to be.

There are flashing tail red and white units that are approved under Cessna's part numbers. Your Cessna dealer can get you those at a inflated price, equal to the price of getting any thing else approved.
 
azure said:
Okay, I am not 100% sure they are independently approved. I could swear they were Whelens in that I have seen a Whelen brochure somewhere in my aircraft papers, but I cannot find it in the subset of the papers that I keep at home and a quick look through the airframe log doesn't reveal a Whelen strobes installation.

Assuming my current strobes are not sufficient... what about an old-style rotating beacon? A PoA member has one of these for sale, claims it is electrically clean and noiseless. Cessna stopped using this type of beacon sometime in the late '60s. The first 177RG was made in the 1970-1 time frame. Would field approval be possible for this kind of unit?
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Your aircraft must comply with 91.205(b)-11 in as much that you must have a flashing unit installed. the strobes can be turned off, but you still must have the flasher on and working.

Look for a 337 in your files installing the strobes. not a brochure.
 
Tom-D said:
Cessna never used Whelen as OEM equipment. any of their equipment is added with a STC with the required 337 entering it in the aircraft history records.
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Then the strobes are apparently OEM. There is no 337 and no logbook entry documenting an aftermarket installation.

The aircraft must comply with 91.205 (b)-11. That's why it's an (R)
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I thought (b)-11 applied only to aircraft certificated after 1996 ?? :confused:
I would have thought (c)-3 was the one you meant since it applies to all US-registered aircraft.

There are flashing tail red and white units that are approved under Cessna's part numbers. Your Cessna dealer can get you those at a inflated price, equal to the price of getting any thing else approved.
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It was my Cessna dealer that tried to sell me a Cessna approved flasher assembly that was not even mountable in the airplane. Two, in fact, though I think one was the actual Cessna part that superseded the old flasher unit. No thank you, I will go with something that is KNOWN (by word of other owners) to work in Cardinals. :mad:
 
azure said:
Then the strobes are apparently OEM. There is no 337 and no logbook entry documenting an aftermarket installation.
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Are you sure the strobes are Whelen? you would have to know what the Illustrated Parts breakdown has for OEM, if installed at the factory. Cessna used off the shelf flashers made by several companies over the years.

azure said:
thought (b)-11 applied only to aircraft certificated after 1996 ?? :confused:
I would have thought (c)-3 was the one you meant since it applies to all US-registered aircraft.
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either reg will make the Flasher required equipment.


azure said:
was my Cessna dealer that tried to sell me a Cessna approved flasher assembly that was not even mountable in the airplane. Two, in fact, though I think one was the actual Cessna part that superseded the old flasher unit. No thank you, I will go with something that is KNOWN (by word of other owners) to work in Cardinals. :mad:
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Dealers aren't always right.

Anything you buy should have the proper paper work in the box.
 
Tom-D said:
Are you sure the strobes are Whelen? you would have to know what the Illustrated Parts breakdown has for OEM, if installed at the factory. Cessna used off the shelf flashers made by several companies over the years.
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I never said I was sure, I said I THOUGHT I had seen a Whelen brochure in my papers, and the only other Whelen part I knew about in my plane was the Parmetheus LED landing lights and I didn't think it was that one. But maybe I'm confused and it was the Parmetheus brochure. When I looked today inside the plane I couldn't find it, but my CFII's clock was running so I didn't take too much time. However I'm quite sure about the logbook as I double-checked.
Dealers aren't always right.
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My point exactly.
Anything you buy should have the proper paper work in the box.
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Paperwork will not make a square peg fit in a round hole... or shrink an oversized part so that it will fit.
 
Chief may have it in stock.
 
Folks, thanks but I checked with both Spruce and Chief yesterday, posted earlier in the thread. The only dealer who could have it in by the weekend without the extra cost of Saturday delivery is local. I will know by this evening if they were successful.
 
azure said:
Folks, thanks but I checked with both Spruce and Chief yesterday, posted earlier in the thread. The only dealer who could have it in by the weekend without the extra cost of Saturday delivery is local. I will know by this evening if they were successful.
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any chance of borrowing one from an aircraft in for maintenance ?
 
Tom-D said:
any chance of borrowing one from an aircraft in for maintenance ?
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You mean from the authorized Cessna dealer's service department? Although the parts folks did f--- up pretty badly, that's more than I'd expect anyone to put out to make up to me. Parts and service are separate departments there. And of course I'd have to pay my mech to inspect and do all the paperwork for the install, uninstall, and reinstall once the permanent beacon arrives (even if I did the install/deinstall myself).

And I'd still be paying extra for the part we already express ordered.
 
Tom-D said:
any chance of borrowing one from an aircraft in for maintenance ?
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So I go to pick up my plane from maintenance, and they say, "Sorry, can't release your plane -- we loaned your beacon to another customer and he's not back yet." Or worse, "...and he crashed. We've ordered another at no cost to you, but the part is back-ordered and won't be in for 2-6 weeks." No, I don't think a reputable shop is going to borrow parts off a customer's airplane.
 
Ron Levy said:
So I go to pick up my plane from maintenance, and they say, "Sorry, can't release your plane -- we loaned your beacon to another customer and he's not back yet." Or worse, "...and he crashed. We've ordered another at no cost to you, but the part is back-ordered and won't be in for 2-6 weeks." No, I don't think a reputable shop is going to borrow parts off a customer's airplane.
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Yeah, that's true as well. Though Tom might have been thinking, just to try it to make sure it will work, before ordering.

That ship has already sailed though. The Whelen is in, my mech promises it will be installed tonight with all the required paperwork. Crossing my fingers that this will be the end of it.
 
Ron Levy said:
So I go to pick up my plane from maintenance, and they say, "Sorry, can't release your plane -- we loaned your beacon to another customer and he's not back yet." Or worse, "...and he crashed. We've ordered another at no cost to you, but the part is back-ordered and won't be in for 2-6 weeks." No, I don't think a reputable shop is going to borrow parts off a customer's airplane.
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Wouldn't you get permission first?
 
Tom-D said:
Wouldn't you get permission first?
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I wouldn't even ask unless it was a customer with whom I had a very strong relationship, and not unless I was absolutely certain I had a Plan B to get that plane back out on schedule if anything went wrong. Even then, I'd feel there would have to be some quid pro quo just for the wear and tear on the unit. Actually, the more I think about it, no, I wouldn't do that with a customer's airplane -- too much chance of spoiling a good relationship with that customer if circumstances beyond my control spoil my plan. Maybe from my fleet if I were an FBO with compatible aircraft, or from my spares stock, but not from another customer's airplane.
 
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Ron Levy said:
I wouldn't even ask unless it was a customer with whom I had a very strong relationship, and not unless I was absolutely certain I had a Plan B to get that plane back out on schedule if anything went wrong. Even then, I'd feel there would have to be some quid pro quo just for the wear and tear on the unit. Actually, the more I think about it, no, I wouldn't do that with a customer's airplane -- too much chance of spoiling a good relationship with that customer if circumstances beyond my control spoil my plan. Maybe from my fleet if I were an FBO with compatible aircraft, or from my spares stock, but not from another customer's airplane.
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That's just you Ron, I have a pretty good rapport with my customers, and over the years I asked for and gotten good results in these cases, pilot owners are pretty benevolent when they know she is in a bind to get the check ride done.


when you are that up tight about material things maybe you need to re-evaluate your out look toward your things verses people in need.
 
Tom-D said:
any chance of borrowing one from an aircraft in for maintenance ?
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Tom if the shop asks me, the lending owner, I don't have a problem. The difficulty is when the shop lonaed out my 430W w/o asking, and I had to "FIND OUT" where it had gone.

That shop has not touch my airplane in six years. They never will.
 
bbchien said:
Tom if the shop asks me, the lending owner, I don't have a problem. The difficulty is when the shop lonaed out my 430W w/o asking, and I had to "FIND OUT" where it had gone.

That shop has not touch my airplane in six years. They never will.
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Any one that would steal your parts, does not deserve your business.

But isn't it wonderful when folks here will assume I would take parts with out permission, when I suggested she try to borrow one.
 
Given the difficulties you're having procuring a replacement part, I'd look real hard at making an acceptable albeit temporary repair of the existing beacon.
 
gismo said:
Given the difficulties you're having procuring a replacement part, I'd look real hard at making an acceptable albeit temporary repair of the existing beacon.
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Seeing post 23, was yesterday at 1:00 I'm hoping it's a done deal.
 
gismo said:
Given the difficulties you're having procuring a replacement part, I'd look real hard at making an acceptable albeit temporary repair of the existing beacon.
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It's the other way around Lance... we first tried to fix the existing beacon. Either Cessna no longer ships a usable replacement part for the flasher assembly, or there are some incompetent people on the job somewhere in the supply chain.

So we express ordered a replacement.

The replacement arrived yesterday, is in my mechanic's possession, and he promised to have it installed last night.

I checked this morning and there is no evidence that he has even been in my hangar for two days. Everything is exactly as I left it on Thursday. There is certainly no sign of the Whelen beacon or the box it came in.

And he is once again incommunicado, not answering calls, voicemail full. :( :mad:
 
If not, boating would appear to be a more rewarding past-time. The current relationship sounds like a typical heart-sick co-dependent 3-chord country love song.

Ron Levy said:
I suspect there are other mechanics in SE MI who would more appreciate your business.
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Ron Levy said:
I suspect there are other mechanics in SE MI who would more appreciate your business.
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Yeah that's true I'm sure. The problem is that they are located at fields that are at least 1 to 1.5 hours drive from me, with one exception, Orzel at KPHN, and there are (last I checked) no hangars available at PHN for less than $400/month.

Everyone in this area complains about the scarcity of good mechanics. My guy used to be very good, but he has had medical and other personal issues recently and is just no longer very reliable. But there is no one else who works regularly at my field, and anywhere else I'd be willing to move my airplane to is the same way.
 
This is a chronic problem in the industry, you either go to the local FBO, (if there is one) or a self employed A&P, and they are not working the industry because they are worried about liability or they are old and retired.

That plus the average A&P can't find enough work at the wage to support a family.

I can do this because I have other income, most A&Ps don't.
 
Tom-D said:
This is a chronic problem in the industry, you either go to the local FBO, (if there is one) or a self employed A&P, and they are not working the industry because they are worried about liability or they are old and retired.

That plus the average A&P can't find enough work at the wage to support a family.

I can do this because I have other income, most A&Ps don't.
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My mech recently landed a regular job at a nearby field with a freight outfit. He has the income now to do it, but less time, and as I said has had other issues lately.

I've actually thought about getting my A&P. I don't have the physical strength to do the kind of work my mechanic does but at least it would make ownership a lot less expensive. But in the end, I decided I just don't have the time for my day job, flying, and learning to fix airplanes.
 
Got a call from my mech at 0900 this morning. It wasn't even something good, like a medical emergency. Apparently one of his wife's relatives had died and he just dropped everything to be there for her. He didn't even THINK to leave the f&#!ing beacon in the hangar over the weekend so that I could hire someone else -- like maybe my CFII, who is also an A&P -- to install it. Not to mention LET ME KNOW that something had come up, instead of leaving me in the lurch. I was, needless to say, livid and told him in so many words that he'd screwed the pooch, and he was damned right that I wasn't going to pay for the overnight shipping.

The heartsick three-chord country love song ends here. He's going to get that beacon installed or else patch it up and sign off for a ferry flight, and then never again do I put myself in a situation where I depend on him for anything, much less when it's time-critical.

:mad::mad:
 
There's more than one reason that guy won't ever touch my plane (again).

I hope he makes it right for you - right now - and that you're able to snag that rating.

Are you sure you need to be based with a repair shop on field? There's a friendly little airport with a great community and a lot of hidden talent that can get folks out of most any pickle ... ;)
 
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