Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - MTN

[JasonM]

I found myself in an odd situation where I wasn't really sure what to do. fortunately just before I was going to ask ATC, they cleared me into the Bravo. Here is my scenario.

I was flying from the south up north to go around the SFRA but under the BWI class Bravo shelf of 2500'.

About 1/3 of the way around that ring is the MTN class Delta that ends at 2500'. You can't go around the delta to the right due to a restricted area and the Bravo goes down to 1500' to the left side which I didn't feel was a safe/legal alt to be flying with that kind of population and obstacles below.

So I am headed straight at the class Delta, I was at 2200' under the 2500' Bravo on flight following, hoping they would grant me a Bravo clearance, but they kept telling me to remain outside the Bravo. I wasn't sure what to do with the MTN class Delta coming up.

What do you do if you don't get a Bravo clearance to go around the Delta airspace and if your on flight following awaiting that clearance? Do I tell ATC I need to tranfer to MTN tower? Since I am on flight following and assigned a transponder code, will MTN see me coming?

 

[bobmrg]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

I found myself in an odd situation where I wasn't really sure what to do. fortunately just before I was going to ask ATC, they cleared me into the Bravo. Here is my scenario.

I was flying from the south up north to go around the SFRA but under the BWI class Bravo shelf of 2500'.

About 1/3 of the way around that ring is the MTN class Delta that ends at 2500'. You can't go around the delta to the right due to a restricted area and the Bravo goes down to 1500' to the left side which I didn't feel was a safe/legal alt to be flying with that kind of population and obstacles below.

So I am headed straight at the class Delta, I was at 2200' under the 2500' Bravo on flight following, hoping they would grant me a Bravo clearance, but they kept telling me to remain outside the Bravo. I wasn't sure what to do with the MTN class Delta coming up.

What do you do if you don't get a Bravo clearance to go around the Delta airspace and if your on flight following awaiting that clearance? Do I tell ATC I need to tranfer to MTN tower? Since I am on flight following and assigned a transponder code, will MTN see me coming?

From the controller's handbook:

"2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.
REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7210.3, Para 4-3-1, Letters of Agreement.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport in Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.
b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.
NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.
c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility."

Short answer is that the responsibility for coordinating your passage rests with ATC, not with you.

Bob Gardner

 

[flyingron]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

Yes, if you are talking to Potomac Approach, tell them you're approaching MTN and are they coordinating with them or should you change frequencies.

Depending on what the standing policies between the facilities are you'll get one of two things:

Navion 27K Contact Martin Tower on 121.3

or something to the effect that they are handling you and stay with them.

You can also ask PCT if the R-area is active if you want to go through that. It's frequently not on the weekends (and even frequently during the day).

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

First, one of my mantras is that one should never let the airplane get to a point their brain has not already been. It was this failure to stay ahead of the plane which was a major factor in the so-called Cory Lidle accident in NYC several years ago. The time to start thinking about what to do in the position at the end of the line you put on that chart was somewhere south of the SFRA, not approaching MTN's airspace.

In any event, as long as you are on flight following, in this situation ATC is directed by FAA Order 7110.65 to take care of you by one of three means:

• Coordinate by landline with MTN TWR your transit of the D-space at your current altitude without handing you off to MTN TWR
• Coordinate a handoff to MTN TWR prior to entry into that D-space
• Clear you up into the B-space to go over the D-space

Thus, if you are receiving flight following, you should never reach the position of having nowhere to go unless ATC doesn't do their job as FAA Order 7110.65 tells them to do it.

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

Yes, if you are talking to Potomac Approach, tell them you're approaching MTN and are they coordinating with them or should you change frequencies.

You can certainly ask that question if you get uncomfortable with the situation (see 91.123 regarding pilot uncertainty), but if ATC is operating "by the book," you should not have to do that -- ATC should take care of it on their own initiative.

 

[JasonM]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

so, basically.. If I am on Flight Following and assigned a code, I can continue on my way through any of the other airspace's unless told otherwise?

Cap'n Ron, I agree that I messed this one up and should have thought through this scenario a little better before hand.

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

so, basically.. If I am on Flight Following and assigned a code, I can continue on my way through any of the other airspace's unless told otherwise?

Delta or Charlie, yes; Bravo, no. You've met the Charlie/Delta requirement for 2-way comm by being in communication with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the airspace you're in. OTOH, you'd still need an explicit clearance into the B-space even if you're already receiving flight following from the TRACON.

Cap'n Ron, I agree that I messed this one up and should have thought through this scenario a little better before hand.

Good. Now go, and sin no more.

 

[JasonM]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

Delta, yes; Bravo, no. You've met the Delta requirement for 2-way comm by being in communication with Potomac. OTOH, you'd still need an explicit clearance into the B-space even if you're already receiving flight following from Potomac.

Good. Now go, and sin no more.

yeah, I didn't mean I could just enter the Bravo. I know better than that. I was implying Delta.

They did clear me going south as soon as I asked at 5500'. was neat flying and seeing the stadiums. Got to see them again going north at 3500' which was better, just had to wait longer for my clearance into the Bravo.

Another thing which I thought was odd. Controller 1 on the way down gave me the "Cleared in the Class Bravo at 5500" , then when already in the Bravo I was transferred to another controller, he gave me the "Cleared into the Class Bravo" again. Why did they clear my twice?

 

[jtheune]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

I had a similar situation a couple of weeks ago coming down from the north and Potomac told me to talk to the tower at Martin and come back to them after I got past their airspace.

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

yeah, I didn't mean I could just enter the Bravo. I know better than that. I was implying Delta.

Just making sure. :wink2:

Another thing which I thought was odd. Controller 1 on the way down gave me the "Cleared in the Class Bravo at 5500" , then when already in the Bravo I was transferred to another controller, he gave me the "Cleared into the Class Bravo" again. Why did they clear my twice?

Just making sure?

 

[coloradobluesky]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

To enter Delta or Charlie airspace you need to be communicating with ATC. You do not have to talk to the tower. To enter Bravo, you need to hear those magic words "cleared into Bravo". It's up to ATC to coordinate, although sometimes they don't. With these Deltas under Bravo, they seem to have it worked out. ATC has been known to drop the ball, so its good to ask "I'm cleared into suchandsuch class Delta, correct?" would do. That gets it on the record with no ambiguity. But, theoretically all you have to do is be communicating with ATC, and you are good to go.

 

[flyingron]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

You can certainly ask that question if you get uncomfortable with the situation (see 91.123 regarding pilot uncertainty), but if ATC is operating "by the book," you should not have to do that -- ATC should take care of it on their own initiative.

Yes, and your arch enemy Roncachamp points out the same thing, but I've had ATC leave me barreling down on a class B only to hastily send me to tower when I prod them.

 

[MAKG1]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

Yes, and your arch enemy Roncachamp points out the same thing, but I've had ATC leave me barreling down on a class B only to hastily send me to tower when I prod them.

I've had a Class D tower (KSQL) get slammed and forget to hand me off to the neighboring Class B (KSFO) I had asked for during the transition.

Last second Class B clearances are the rule rather than the exception here. But, when it was clear the clearance wasn't going to come in time, I broke into the Class D frequency, and announced "Cessna 123XY is circling to avoid Class B request frequency change" and started circling. The handoff came pretty fast after that.

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

Yes, and your arch enemy Roncachamp points out the same thing, but I've had ATC leave me barreling down on a class B only to hastily send me to tower when I prod them.

Not sure why one would be sent to Tower by Approach when "barreling down on a class B," nor am I sure what Tower could do to help once you get there.

 

[MAKG1]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

Not sure why one would be sent to Tower by Approach when "barreling down on a class B," nor am I sure what Tower could do to help once you get there.

If you're crossing the surface area at low altitude, Tower is likely to have control over that airspace, rather than Approach.

Of course, it depends on the MOU that us mere mortals can't know about.

 

[Shawn]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

Not sure why one would be sent to Tower by Approach when "barreling down on a class B," nor am I sure what Tower could do to help once you get there.

LAX Bravo Mini route does this as well...So Cal approach hands you off to Santa Monica Tower to LAX Tower to Hawthorne Tower back to approach as you pass through Bravo. Those towers coordinate that transition route for LAX.

Last trip things were so chaotic that I was on with approach and the controller was doing everything she could to keep us all from bumping wings and the handoff to SMO tower was then an immediate handoff to LAX as I was on the blue line!

I was told to "expect" the clearance and she let me know it would be a quick flip, but I was ready just in case it didn't happen.

As to the OP's scenario...when I am on FF with ATC, Charlie and Delta airspace lines are irrelevant to me...as mentioned as long as you are "in communication" with ATC you are good...now those blue lines...different story!

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

If you're crossing the surface area at low altitude, Tower is likely to have control over that airspace, rather than Approach.

I can't see how anyone would be below the first shelf outside the surface area headed inbound unless one was landing at the primary airport, in which case coordination for B-space entry should have been received a long time back. Other than that, you're not going through the surface area that low (below 1500 MSL in the case of the BaltoWash B-space).

 

[MAKG1]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

I can't see how anyone would be below the first shelf outside the surface area headed inbound unless one was landing at the primary airport, in which case coordination for B-space entry should have been received a long time back. Other than that, you're not going through the surface area that low (below 1500 MSL in the case of the BaltoWash B-space).

Look at the San Francisco Sectional.

Climbing out of KSQL or KHAF to the northwest, you will enter the surface area below the 2000 MSL crossover altitude below which KSFO Tower has control.

If you can tolerate the turbulence (or it's really calm), one of the two sanctioned Bay Tour altitudes is 1500 MSL, and you will be in contact with KSFO Tower. Lots of folks don't like that altitude, as some of the obstructions in the City are higher than that (in particular, Sutro Tower), but the view is fabulous.

 

[flyingron]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

Not sure why one would be sent to Tower by Approach when "barreling down on a class B," nor am I sure what Tower could do to help once you get there.

I meant D.

 

[jpower]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

Yes, and your arch enemy Roncachamp points out the same thing, but I've had ATC leave me barreling down on a class B only to hastily send me to tower when I prod them.

I meant D.

That's happened to me on numerous occasions. I'll usually ask maybe 8 miles before the D "Approach, N12345, are you coordinating my Class D transition?" Now that I know better, I prefer to have it all worked out before it gets to the barreling down stage.

 

[MarkZ]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

A simple, "approach, verify bug smasher 123 approved to fly through the Podunk satellite airport delta airspace" should do the trick if there is ambiguity.

We have LOA's with our towers to cut thru their Delta airspace at certain altitudes, everything else we coordinate. I typically give VFR's a heads up that the transition is approved.

 

[eman1200]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

I would just add a simple "ask". I was on flight following yesterday and thought I should have been handed off a long time ago and hadn't heard any instructions come my way in a while so I simply asked if I was still with them.

And although you didn't catch this scenario in preflight planning, sounds like u will next time, aka 'learning experience'!

 

[denverpilot]

I was on FF with PHX and trying to go over the top of the DVT Delta since PHX wasn't being forthcoming with a Bravo clearance that day.

Knowing what a zoo the DVT airspace is, I would have preferred the bottom of the Bravo.

Interestingly, PHX dumped me off to the DVT tower even though I was above their Delta at 5500, and DVT seemed surprised like there had been no communication from PHX TRACON. It wasn't pretty.

They then proceeded to handle their usual insane levels of traffic on a weekend morning and completely forgot about me, which meant I had to go back to PHX and start over with the FF request once beyond DVT.

Departing KGEU northeast-bound is a cluster***.

Going straight north and then around DVT isn't all that advise able when Luke is busy either. Not to mention cutting across where all the student hoardes are shooting approaches into DVT.

It's just kinda messy right there. Head on a swivel area for sure.

 

[roncachamp]

Re: Under Bravo, On Flight Following and class Delta coming soon. What to do? BWI - M

Yes, and your arch enemy Roncachamp points out the same thing, but I've had ATC leave me barreling down on a class D only to hastily send me to tower when I prod them.

Were you landing or overflying?