UND Crash…reversal of Germanwings

DavidWhite said:
Health first is really easy to say if flying isn’t your job; being homeless is also pretty bad for ones health.
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It's not just that. There are plenty of other situations that can cause stress, and the FAA needs to realize that reducing the stress of losing your medical would actually be beneficial. Say your wife takes an interest in some other dude and leaves - that can be stressful, big time. A kid is sick, you have a car wreck, etc... all kind of things can create stress for a pilot, and overanalyzing pilots with yearly psych evals is likely to exacerbate the situation rather than improve it. Plenty of divorced airline captains out there that do just fine, it would seem. No, I'm not pro-divorce, at all, but saying that we shouldn't make things worse.
 
RyanShort1 said:
It's not just that. There are plenty of other situations that can cause stress, and the FAA needs to realize that reducing the stress of losing your medical would actually be beneficial. Say your wife takes an interest in some other dude and leaves - that can be stressful, big time. A kid is sick, you have a car wreck, etc... all kind of things can create stress for a pilot, and overanalyzing pilots with yearly psych evals is likely to exacerbate the situation rather than improve it. Plenty of divorced airline captains out there that do just fine, it would seem. No, I'm not pro-divorce, at all, but saying that we shouldn't make things worse.
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This is what I was eluding to. Sometimes people struggle with mental health. And it’s not because they’re hearing voices. These individuals shouldn’t be barred from flying for life.
 
We can count on CAMI to make it super easy. Coming to a MedXpress form near you:

13. HAS YOUR FAA AIRMAN MEDICAL CERTIFICATE EVER BEEN DENIED, SUSPENDED, OR REVOKED? [ ] YES [ ] NO

13a. WAS THERE EVER A TIME IN THIS LIFE WHEN YOU THINK TO YOURSELF "I CAN'T DO THIS ANYMORE. EVEN HAPPINESS IS TORTURE, FOR PAIN FOLLOWS ME LIKE A SHADOW. I WILL TAKE MY OWN HAND DOWN A QUIET DEER TRAIL AND LET THE FOREST MAKE USE OF ME"? [ ] YES [ ] NO

:rolleyes:
 
I can speak firsthand to the FAAs incompetence when it comes to mental illness.

I was suffering from depression in my 20s, and sought help as a result. I noticed my depression was clouding my judgement, and self grounded. Diagnosis: Major Depressive Disorder: Moderate. I wasn’t suicidal, but made a mistake of seeking help. As a result it is at least $10k of Psychiatric rivals to even attempt to get a new medical. Why even bother? Meanwhile I know of many clinically depressed pilots who don’t seek help because of the harm that results. For those on SSRIS the current SSRI protocol simply isn’t feasible for most. $5-10k initial certification + 5k annually simply isn’t sustainable for most non major pilots.

So I realized I had an issue, and sought help and am screwed for life. But people that don’t seek help are rewarded. The FAA is under the illusion that if a problem doesn’t exist on paper, it doesn’t exist.

A more reasonable solution would be to make doctors mandatory reporters if a pilot has a dangerous mental health condition. Just like they already do with drivers licenses. Had this been in a place, it would in fact have prevented the Germanwings tragedy.
 
ProjectInfinity1 said:
Excuse me? Tell me on a 4473 where it says someone who was voluntarily committed is prohibited from owning a firearm?

I’ll wait, because I’m going to lose my FFL if that’s the case lol. As I was voluntarily admitted to inpatient in Jan 2018

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Convenient that you're now specifying voluntary commitment when you did not previously.

How about question "e"? Since anyone committed either voluntarily or involuntarily will almost certainly have been treated with psychotropic medications (controlled substances).
 
Medexpress is about the most dishonest form out there.

Have you ever been diagnosed with, had, or do you presently have?

- Depression/Anxiety

Anyone who says they have never felt a bit of depression or anxiety in their lives, is lying about it. So are the 99.99% of people who answer no perjuring themselves? What is the threshold for answering yes on that question? And who makes that judgement?
 
aftCG said:
I take it you've never filled out a 4473.

Short version, no you cannot walk out of a psych ward and legally buy a firearm of any kind.
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aftCG said:
Convenient that you're now specifying voluntary commitment when you did not previously.

How about question "e"? Since anyone committed either voluntarily or involuntarily will almost certainly have been treated with psychotropic medications (controlled substances).
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My apologies, two of my earlier posts specified a voluntary commitment. I forgot to include that in the post you specifically quoted.

Please note in the lower right hand corner the post was not edited, I.E. I didn’t put it in after the fact to attempt to weasel out.

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pilot445 said:
Medexpress is about the most dishonest form out there.

Have you ever been diagnosed with, had, or do you presently have?

- Depression/Anxiety

Anyone who says they have never felt a bit of depression or anxiety in their lives, is lying about it. So are the 99.99% of people who answer no perjuring themselves? What is the threshold for answering yes on that question? And who makes that judgement?
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Unfortunately, a diagnosis. Have suicidal thoughts but never tell anyone? Then you can slip through, see a doctor for it or worse get a prescription and you’re in some manure.
 
“Diagnosed with” isn’t the same as “felt a bit of depression”.

Marc

pilot445 said:
Medexpress is about the most dishonest form out there.

Have you ever been diagnosed with, had, or do you presently have?

- Depression/Anxiety

Anyone who says they have never felt a bit of depression or anxiety in their lives, is lying about it. So are the 99.99% of people who answer no perjuring themselves? What is the threshold for answering yes on that question? And who makes that judgement?
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Mxfarm said:
“Diagnosed with” isn’t the same as “felt a bit of depression”.

Marc
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But had is the same as felt a bit of depression. The point being is that the FAA encourages dishonesty by asking vague questions.
 
pilot445 said:
Medexpress is about the most dishonest form out there.

Have you ever been diagnosed with, had, or do you presently have?

- Depression/Anxiety

Anyone who says they have never felt a bit of depression or anxiety in their lives, is lying about it. So are the 99.99% of people who answer no perjuring themselves? What is the threshold for answering yes on that question? And who makes that judgement?
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That's a weak load of desperate justification. Sadness is an emotion; clinical depression is a diagnosis. Grow up.
 
Lachlan said:
That's a weak load of desperate justification. Sadness is an emotion; clinical depression is a diagnosis. Grow up.
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@pilot445 I do agree that the medical policy sucks. However, I respectfully agree with Lachlan, there is a difference between “the blues”, and depression.
 
Anonymous Pilot said:
I can speak firsthand to the FAAs incompetence when it comes to mental illness.

I was suffering from depression in my 20s, and sought help as a result. I noticed my depression was clouding my judgement, and self grounded. Diagnosis: Major Depressive Disorder: Moderate. I wasn’t suicidal, but made a mistake of seeking help. As a result it is at least $10k of Psychiatric rivals to even attempt to get a new medical. Why even bother? Meanwhile I know of many clinically depressed pilots who don’t seek help because of the harm that results. For those on SSRIS the current SSRI protocol simply isn’t feasible for most. $5-10k initial certification + 5k annually simply isn’t sustainable for most non major pilots.

So I realized I had an issue, and sought help and am screwed for life. But people that don’t seek help are rewarded. The FAA is under the illusion that if a problem doesn’t exist on paper, it doesn’t exist.

A more reasonable solution would be to make doctors mandatory reporters if a pilot has a dangerous mental health condition. Just like they already do with drivers licenses. Had this been in a place, it would in fact have prevented the Germanwings tragedy.
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They already do. It’s called insurance billing codes. “Ringy-dingy..............!”
 
BladeSlap said:
What evidence do they have of any of this?

From what I hear the FAA majorly discourages people from getting mental help if they need it.
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You hear incorrectly....author (by petition) of the “on SSRI” pathway, here......
 
ProjectInfinity1 said:
No, we can say if someone is cured or not.
However does that mean someone with a chronic condition is thus incapable of performing airman’s duties? Mental illness is a huge spectrum, I don’t think any of us are advocating for someone with BPD, or Non verbal autism to fly.

Let’s try to look at it a different way, are we concerned more about suicide by pilot, a murder suicide with someone wishing to do others harm? Or is it somewhere between those extremes while also including general airmanship with the likes of ADHD, OCD ect

Has there really been a sharp uptick in accidents with regards to LSA? Yes if the standards are reduced, someone will eventually go through and cause harm to themselves or others.

But there has to be a certain amount of tolerance for those outliers. In your view, let’s say for ****s and giggles, that a reduction in standards after 5 years leads to a 2% increase in the current accident rate for pilot error. Would that in your mind warrant returning to the current system, or would it be a success in allowing 98% of those who otherwise were denied to fly, and had no incidents in such a hypothetical 5 year period.
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it already exists- but the period is TEN years.....
 
bbchien said:
They already do. It’s called insurance billing codes. “Ringy-dingy..............!”
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But insurance codes are only generally only looked at after the fact I believe. If a doctor would have reported Lubitz condition, he would have been pulled from flying.
 
bbchien said:
You hear incorrectly....author (by petition) of the “on SSRI” pathway, here......
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So if I was depressed and went to get help, I wouldn’t be walking a mine field of losing my job and career?

From a few posts on here recently about it, many say unless you have lots of time and money just forget it and go sport pilot.

That doesn’t sounds like a environment that promotes mental health.
 
bbchien said:
You hear incorrectly....author (by petition) of the “on SSRI” pathway, here......
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BladeSlap said:
So if I was depressed and went to get help, I wouldn’t be walking a mine field of losing my job and career?

From a few posts on here recently about it, many say unless you have lots of time and money just forget it and go sport pilot.

That doesn’t sounds like a environment that promotes mental health.
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Exactly right! Seek help for your mental health, and what do you get? A $5k annual recurrent SSRI fine courtesy of the FAA and all their requirements.
 
pilot445 said:
Exactly right! Seek help for your mental health, and what do you get? A $5k annual recurrent SSRI fine courtesy of the FAA and all their requirements.
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How is this different than having, say, some sort of cardio event that jeopardizes your health AND medical simultaneously? I've heard of a bunch of different SIs that have short intervals and expensive tests in perpetuity.

Flying career -> broken heart -> Health first, now you are on a recurring onerous SI regimen

Flying career -> broken brain -> Health first, now you are on a recurring onerous SI regimen
 
schmookeeg said:
How is this different than having, say, some sort of cardio event that jeopardizes your health AND medical simultaneously? I've heard of a bunch of different SIs that have short intervals and expensive tests in perpetuity.

Flying career -> broken heart -> Health first, now you are on a recurring onerous SI regimen

Flying career -> broken brain -> Health first, now you are on a recurring onerous SI regimen
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The problem is, it is much simpler to have a conclusive negative for a heart issue. Chest pains? Run a bunch of tests and they can show it isn't a heart problem. Just because someone doesn't handle life stresses as easily as someone else, doesn't mean their brain is "broken".

Feeling off due to a life stresses? Want to talk to someone about it? Ok, but you'll get a Dx code assigned to you, maybe an Rx too. Have that happen more than once? You're goose is cooked with the FAA. This is very much akin to how the FAA views alcoholism. One size fits all. The problem is, everyone reacts differently to life stress, and no two experiences are the same. Maybe the pilot needs to take a few months or a year off of flying until they sort things out. Many pilots do that on their own, but won't seek professional help because of the likely consequences with the FAA down the road.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
The problem is, it is much simpler to have a conclusive negative for a heart issue. Chest pains? Run a bunch of tests and they can show it isn't a heart problem. Just because someone doesn't handle life stresses as easily as someone else, doesn't mean their brain is "broken".

Feeling off due to a life stresses? Want to talk to someone about it? Ok, but you'll get a Dx code assigned to you, maybe an Rx too. Have that happen more than once? You're goose is cooked with the FAA. This is very much akin to how the FAA views alcoholism. One size fits all. The problem is, everyone reacts differently to life stress, and no two experiences are the same. Maybe the pilot needs to take a few months or a year off of flying until they sort things out. Many pilots do that on their own, but won't seek professional help because of the likely consequences with the FAA down the road.
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I actually feel like we're saying the same thing from two different sides of a fence. (and perhaps in two different styles ;) )

If the recurring SSRI stuff was $50 a pop instead of $5000 (or covered by medical insurance and "netting" the same thing), would this even be an issue?
 
I am still not sure where this thread is actually going?

Does someone have a suggestion for a better way to handle this?

There is one thing the FAA could do....enforce a MedXPress training video with some type of code at the end to prove its been fully watched and acknowledged. If they are a minor then the parent or guardian must also sign it. Then, before a CFI can sign off your first hour of logged training or a ground written can be taken or basically any start of training - the individual would fully understand the MedXPress form and all of its gothcha's. There would never be a question on this forum because anyone interested would have to watch and acknowledge this course from the start. There would be little doubt. It would probably save lots and lots of people money in great stress in the long run. Be brutally honest right up front. Tell them what is at stake. Cover mental health, drugs, DUI, alchohol abuse, etc. Hell, show it to 15yr old kids interested in flying and maybe it will deter them from a DUI or drug problem or even give them an excuse at the crappy party where peer pressure it terrible.

I still think its just dumb that the medical portion is so "de-emphasized". Yes, a FBO can still make money right up until the pilot needs to solo but its just not right to lead them on. And its not the FBO's job to teach them all this stuff. It would probably be the cheapest thing the FAA could do to make it more clear, harsh perhaps...but total clear before a penny is even spent...or loaned!!! While at it, the video should also be open and clear about options like Light Sport, etc.
 
Sinistar said:
There is one thing the FAA could do....enforce a MedXPress training video with some type of code at the end to prove its been fully watched and acknowledged.
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The FAA won't do that, because it would force them to completely show their hand on video when it comes to medical certifications. You can't practically do that when you consider the full breadth of conditions covered in the AME guide. This would make them look as draconian as they are seen by many pilots, but to a wider audience, and could result in a system where it is even harder to make progress toward more reasonable "rules".
 
steingar said:
So because the guy's girlfriend says so. Whatever.
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well if she in fact tried to notify the school and then he ended up crashing the plane, that would be an incredible coincidence if it were not true to some level. Very sad either way.
 
BladeSlap said:
What evidence do they have of any of this?

From what I hear the FAA majorly discourages people from getting mental help if they need it.
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You hear wrong. The FAA encourages pilots to get the help they need. "Well meaning" posters on POA discourage it.
 
Lindberg said:
You hear wrong. The FAA encourages pilots to get the help they need. "Well meaning" posters on POA discourage it.
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If they really want pilots to get help, they provide a strong financial incentive not to. This forum is filled with stories of individuals/pilots who spend thousands or even $10k on extensive HIMs Psychiatric evals only to get denied.
 
Anonymous Pilot said:
I can speak firsthand to the FAAs incompetence when it comes to mental illness.

I was suffering from depression in my 20s, and sought help as a result. I noticed my depression was clouding my judgement, and self grounded. Diagnosis: Major Depressive Disorder: Moderate. I wasn’t suicidal, but made a mistake of seeking help. As a result it is at least $10k of Psychiatric rivals to even attempt to get a new medical. Why even bother? Meanwhile I know of many clinically depressed pilots who don’t seek help because of the harm that results. For those on SSRIS the current SSRI protocol simply isn’t feasible for most. $5-10k initial certification + 5k annually simply isn’t sustainable for most non major pilots.

So I realized I had an issue, and sought help and am screwed for life. But people that don’t seek help are rewarded. The FAA is under the illusion that if a problem doesn’t exist on paper, it doesn’t exist.
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So IMHO, you did the right thing and so did the FAA. You admit you were not fit to fly, as you grounded yourself. What do you think should happen next after you're diagnosed with Major Depressive Disorder: Moderate? Should the FAA then take your word for it when you say you're fit to fly again? And how would it distinguish between pilots who were actually fit to fly again and pilots who were still interested in flying into the side of a mountain then?

You did the right thing by reporting, people who don't report are doing the wrong thing. Likewise for seeking treatment. I am wondering what everyone's ideal "FAA handles mental health properly world looks like." Remove the questions from Medxpress so no one has to report? Then we wind up with treated/untreated diagnosed/undiagnosed all flying around together. Require reporting but don't take away medicals of the mentally ill? Allow pilots to report in/out and self-certify their mental health? All of these options will allow more people in the air at the expense of safety.
 
pilot445 said:
If they really want pilots to get help, they provide a strong financial incentive not to. This forum is filled with stories of individuals/pilots who spend thousands or even $10k on extensive HIMs Psychiatric evals only to get denied.
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It isn't about not wanting those people to get help; it's about not wanting those people to fly. Not everyone is fit, mentally or physically, to be a pilot, and the system is designed to keep out those who aren't fit. If you can describe a system that will allow more fit pilots to fly, while not allowing any more unfit pilots, I am sure the FAA would be interested.
 
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