Uncontrolled field

AuntPeggy

AuntPeggy

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It seems to me that we had a thread awhile back about entering the traffic pattern at uncontrolled fields. I cannot find it. Can someone send a link?
 
AuntPeggy said:
It seems to me that we had a thread awhile back about entering the traffic pattern at uncontrolled fields. I cannot find it. Can someone send a link?
Click to expand...

Any
Traffic
Threads
In
The
Archive
Please
Advise.


Trapper John
 
PILOT controlled field.

Enter the patter whichever way is legal - which is basically anyway that the AFD doesn't prohibit, and your turns match up with the pattern.

I have entered 45 to downwind, 45 to upwind, straight in to downwind, straight in to upwind, crosswind, base, and 20 mile final - and never caused a traffic issue or cut someone off. What I hate doing is flying over the field, and then having to turn around and re-enter the pattern.

Get on the radio early, listen, and keep your eyes open. Another trick if not flying over congested area...get about 100-200' below TPA about 5 miles out and see if you can see anyone in the pattern. Easier to see them against the sky than the ground. Then climb back up to TPA and enter.
 
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EdFred said:
Get on the radio early, listen, and keep your eyes open. Another trick if not flying over congested area...get about 100-200' below TPA about 5 miles out and see if you can see anyone in the pattern. Easier to see them against the sky than the ground. Then climb back up to TPA and enter.
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Good tip!!

Just don't be a roar into the pattern, then pull to idle type, if you like your engine and your money.
 
dmccormack said:
Good tip!!

Just don't be a roar into the pattern, then pull to idle type, if you like your engine and your money.
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That's the problem (ok, maybe not a problem) with the Comanche...it doesn't slow down that well. I'm down to pattern speed about 1-2 miles out. Of course that pattern speed is still a few knots faster than a lot of fixed/fixed planes out there.
 
EdFred said:
That's the problem (ok, maybe not a problem) with the Comanche...it doesn't slow down that well. I'm down to pattern speed about 1-2 miles out. Of course that pattern speed is still a few knots faster than a lot of fixed/fixed planes out there.
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An A36 Bonanza is a pretty slick single -- and I always slowed it down to 90, 100 kias max before pattern entry.

The 1947 -35 Bonanza had a 100 MPH gear/ flap extension speed max, so it made sense to slow down and plan ahead.

I can't tell you how many times I've been at the airport and heard WHAAAAAAAAAAAA, VrooooOOOM! as the hot shot goes from full throttle to idle in 3 seconds.

:mad2:

These are usually the same folks that startup at 2000 RPM.

I guess the fact that they continue flying is a testament to the strength of these engines.
 
Always ask the magic words" Any traffic in the pattern, please advise!" :mad2: :nonod: :mad3: :yikes: :rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
The P-Baron is pretty slick and heavier. I normally do a wider pattern at 120 knots which is just above blue line. I learned to use Approach flaps because they really help slow me. Just pulling the throttles back a couple miles out will eventually slow you, but many times I may still have to descend. Towered APs keep me high sometimes until I can enter downwind. Approach flaps really help in this case.

May want to try it on the A-36 sometime if you still have some speed you need to lose to get into the pattern: 10 to 15% flaps can make a measurable difference.

Only took me 5 years of flying Bos to use this on occasion. With the P, use 'em all the time.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
The P-Baron is pretty slick and heavier. I normally do a wider pattern at 120 knots which is just above blue line. I learned to use Approach flaps because they really help slow me. Just pulling the throttles back a couple miles out will eventually slow you, but many times I may still have to descend. Towered APs keep me high sometimes until I can enter downwind. Approach flaps really help in this case.

May want to try it on the A-36 sometime if you still have some speed you need to lose to get into the pattern: 10 to 15% flaps can make a measurable difference.

Only took me 5 years of flying Bos to use this on occasion. With the P, use 'em all the time.

Best,

Dave
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Dave, in the A36 I used Approach flaps (usually) from the FAF on in. In the pattern, I was usually slow enough by downwind that I just gave it all flaps abeam the numbers.
 
dmccormack said:
Dave, in the A36 I used Approach flaps (usually) from the FAF on in. In the pattern, I was usually slow enough by downwind that I just gave it all flaps abeam the numbers.
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Nice to hear Dan. Yea, on an instrument approach, I have gear and approach flaps in at the FAF like you, full flaps when I am visual and able to make the runway. I just use approach flaps more in the P-Baron just to slow it down. I've had a lot of folks tell me I just need to pull the throttles back, but once they fly with me they see the P just likes to keep on a goin :D

Best,

Dave
 
dmccormack said:
Just don't be a roar into the pattern, then pull to idle type, if you like your engine and your money.
Click to expand...


Much of what I've read and experienced indicates that shock cooling is a myth...unless possibly if your CHT's run well over 400dF in cruise.

Most engines are shock cooled much more severely every time you shut them down than they will ever be when you reduce power and speed.

Taken to the extreme, training planes that remain in the pattern all day long are repeatedly shock cooled and their engines regularly go to TBO.

My CHT's run from 300 to 350 in cruise flight so I definitely don't worry about shock cooling (actually #6 is lucky to make it to 300dF)

YMMV
 
timwinters said:
Much of what I've read and experienced indicates that shock cooling is a myth...unless possibly if your CHT's run well over 400dF in cruise.

Most engines are shock cooled much more severely every time you shut them down than they will ever be when you reduce power and speed.

Taken to the extreme, training planes that remain in the pattern all day long are repeatedly shock cooled and their engines regularly go to TBO.

My CHT's run from 300 to 350 in cruise flight so I definitely don't worry about shock cooling (actually #6 is lucky to make it to 300dF)

YMMV
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I have a very low compression O-145 -- shock cooling is not an issue (for most Aeronca owners, getting the oil warm enough most of the year is a bigger problem).

Most high compression, turbocharged airplane owners should assume they can cause engine damage by shock cooling, despite debate to the contrary.

Of course it's no guarantee, but is in the same line of reasoning that changes the oil every 25 or 50 hours, waits until oil temps are in the green before takeoff, and avoids high MP with low RPM.

In addition, it's pointless to scream into the pattern at high speed, further compounding the difficulty of see and be seen in the most likely place for a mid-air.
 
timwinters said:
Much of what I've read and experienced indicates that shock cooling is a myth...unless possibly if your CHT's run well over 400dF in cruise.

Most engines are shock cooled much more severely every time you shut them down than they will ever be when you reduce power and speed.

Taken to the extreme, training planes that remain in the pattern all day long are repeatedly shock cooled and their engines regularly go to TBO.

My CHT's run from 300 to 350 in cruise flight so I definitely don't worry about shock cooling (actually #6 is lucky to make it to 300dF)

YMMV
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How come we never hear about shock heating?


Trapper John
 
Trapper John said:
How come we never hear about shock heating?


Trapper John
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Actually, we do....sort of.

The theory of when it's below 40dF outside and you start-up (and you don't preheat and your engine is relatively new and tight) the pistons heat faster than the cylinders (and more importantly expand faster than the cylinders), clearances between the piston and cylinder are reduced, the piston is "choked" and excessive wear occurs.

Another myth?

You decide! :smile:
 
timwinters said:
Much of what I've read and experienced indicates that shock cooling is a myth...unless possibly if your CHT's run well over 400dF in cruise.
Click to expand...
There's no question that the issue of "shock cooling" causing cracks in cylinders is a myth, because you need cooling rates of 1000's of degrees per second to achieve that, and even an idle chop only gets you about 100 degrees per minute. However, Lycoming is quite convinced that you can still slowly harm your engine by repeated power reductions causing cooling rates in excess of 60-80 deg/minute. They say (and I figure they have engineering data to support this -- Ted?) that the cylinder heads cool faster than the pistons, and as a result, contract faster. This tightens the cylinder on the piston rings during sharp power reductions, increasing wear rates on the cylinder walls and piston rings, which shortens time between overhauls.
 
timwinters said:
Actually, we do....sort of.

The theory of when it's below 40dF outside and you start-up (and you don't preheat and your engine is relatively new and tight) the pistons heat faster than the cylinders (and more importantly expand faster than the cylinders), clearances between the piston and cylinder are reduced, the piston is "choked" and excessive wear occurs.

Another myth?

You decide! :smile:
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I have pistons in my cubicle that would indicate that no, that is not a myth. You'd be surprised how much damage you can do very quickly from that. I know better than to think that experience will confuse anybody who believes otherwise, though. ;)

As to shock cooling, SI 1094D (Fuel Mixture Leaning Procedures), General Rules, Item 4:

Lycoming Service Instruction 1094D said:
At all times, caution must be taken not to shock cool the cylinders. The maximum recommended temperature change should not exceed 50F per minute
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http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1094D.pdf
 
My P-Baron is more than 200 hours over TBO; several folks have said it's the first one they've known of. I flew my TN A-36 engine well past TBO; also had a lot of folks tell me it'd never make it. I do gradual power reductions and I gradually spool up the turbos to depart either holding the brakes on a short runway or rolling on a long runway; the JPI shows the cooling rate and I do keep it under 50 degree change per minute.

As a matter of fact, there are very few things in flying an airplane I can think of where gradual input isn't better than rapid changes if one know their plane and is thinking ahead: a few, but not many. I always enjoy seeing an accomplished pilot smoothly fly; that, usually means deliberate, even control movements.

Best,

Dave
 
dmccormack said:
I can't tell you how many times I've been at the airport and heard WHAAAAAAAAAAAA, VrooooOOOM! as the hot shot goes from full throttle to idle in 3 seconds.
Click to expand...
It really depends on the airplane -- with a lot of the slower stuff -- you'd never get to the airport if you didn't carry a lot of power into and through a good chunk of the pattern.

No reason to chop from full power to idle instantly -- it can be done smoothly -- but you sure can't do it over a few minutes like you can with a Bo.
 
jesse said:
It really depends on the airplane -- with a lot of the slower stuff -- you'd never get to the airport if you didn't carry a lot of power into and through a good chunk of the pattern.

No reason to chop from full power to idle instantly -- it can be done smoothly -- but you sure can't do it over a few minutes like you can with a Bo.
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yeah -- see what I wrote about a 65 hp Chief above.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Nice to hear Dan. Yea, on an instrument approach, I have gear and approach flaps in at the FAF like you, full flaps when I am visual and able to make the runway. I just use approach flaps more in the P-Baron just to slow it down. I've had a lot of folks tell me I just need to pull the throttles back, but once they fly with me they see the P just likes to keep on a goin :D

Best,

Dave
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I fly a t/n a-36 that has the speed brakes (2 on each wing). What a great mod for that plane...talk about stop and drop, you can go from 180 to 140 in just a few seconds without even touching the throttle .The Beeches sure are slick heavy airframes that get trucking in a hurry downhill......On approaches/near pattern I also use flaps as well. I like to be at Vle around the FAF w/appr flaps ..20/2500 works great when being vectored.. gear down at one dot low and 17" when the glideslope hits the "doughut"
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
I have pistons in my cubicle that would indicate that no, that is not a myth. You'd be surprised how much damage you can do very quickly from that. I know better than to think that experience will confuse anybody who believes otherwise, though. ;)
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Just curious as to the damage to the pistons. Can you elaborate?


Trapper John
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I always enjoy seeing an accomplished pilot smoothly fly; that, usually means deliberate, even control movements.
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My thought as well, and that's how I aim to always fly, especially in the Aztec.
 
I have been trying to shock cool my motor for 5 years now and so far,,, no luck...:nonod: Oh. wait.. late breaking news. Water cooling is great.:D:D:frown2:


Ted DuPuis said:
I have pistons in my cubicle that would indicate that no, that is not a myth. You'd be surprised how much damage you can do very quickly from that. I know better than to think that experience will confuse anybody who believes otherwise, though. ;)

As to shock cooling, SI 1094D (Fuel Mixture Leaning Procedures), General Rules, Item 4:



http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1094D.pdf
Click to expand...
 
taters said:
I fly a t/n a-36 that has the speed brakes (2 on each wing). What a great mod for that plane...talk about stop and drop, you can go from 180 to 140 in just a few seconds without even touching the throttle .The Beeches sure are slick heavy airframes that get trucking in a hurry downhill......On approaches/near pattern I also use flaps as well. I like to be at Vle around the FAF w/appr flaps ..20/2500 works great when being vectored.. gear down at one dot low and 17" when the glideslope hits the "doughut"
Click to expand...

Clay: I owned a TN A-36 for over five years and made many great trips in it. Flew it into Gaston's a few times. Kinna miss that bird. Hope you fly long and prosper!!

Best,

Dave
 
Ron Levy said:
There's no question that the issue of "shock cooling" causing cracks in cylinders is a myth, because you need cooling rates of 1000's of degrees per second to achieve that, and even an idle chop only gets you about 100 degrees per minute. However, Lycoming is quite convinced that you can still slowly harm your engine by repeated power reductions causing cooling rates in excess of 60-80 deg/minute. They say (and I figure they have engineering data to support this -- Ted?) that the cylinder heads cool faster than the pistons, and as a result, contract faster. This tightens the cylinder on the piston rings during sharp power reductions, increasing wear rates on the cylinder walls and piston rings, which shortens time between overhauls.
Click to expand...

Now THAT is the most reasonable explanation I've ever heard. "Shock cooling" has too many people thinking the cylinder will suddenly explode, which doesn't really make sense. I DO buy an explanation that many such "unsynchronized" cooling cycles will lead to fatigue and premature failure. Passes the smell test for me.
 
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