Unclear ATC instructions

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evapilotaz

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Drone airspace abuser
Sorry if this is a bone head question. I'm still relearning things after getting current again after a 10 year no flying lay off.

In the picture below what path do I take? The airplane is the X.

ATC instructions are as follows.

ATC: Airplane 12345 make left base for 22L report entering left base.
Airplane 12345: left base 22L report left base Airplane 345

So what path do I take. :dunno:

The shortest path would be over fly the airport above pattern altitude swing wide and enter left base at pattern altitude.

What is correct here?
 

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evapilotaz said:
Sorry if this is a bone head question. I'm still relearning things after getting current again after a 10 year no flying lay off.

In the picture below what path do I take? The airplane is the X.

ATC instructions are as follows.

ATC: Airplane 12345 make left base for 22L report entering left base.
Airplane 12345: left base 22L report left base Airplane 345

So what path do I take. :dunno:

The shortest path would be over fly the airport above pattern altitude swing wide and enter left base at pattern altitude.

What is correct here?
Click to expand...

The correct thing to do is to ask ATC for clarification as the instruction does not make a lot of sense in the given scenario.
 
The correct answer is

Podunk Tower 345 is right of 22L. Do you mean right traffic?

If tower wants you to cross midfield, they will tell you so. And a base entry is not likely unless you're already on a very long base.
 
According to the diagram, it would appear you have the 22's and the 4's reversed. However, if ATC gives you an instruction that seems confusing, I would ask a question. For example, "Tower, 12345 is west of the airport. Do you want 12345 to fly over the field to establish a left downwind for 22L?"
 
MarkZ said:
According to the diagram, it would appear you have the 22's and the 4's reversed. However, if ATC gives you an instruction that seems confusing, I would ask a question. For example, "Tower, 12345 is west of the airport. Do you want 12345 to fly over the field to establish a left downwind for 22L?"
Click to expand...

I'm embarrassed. I did have the number reversed. :mad2:

Now it makes sense. I was listening to ATC on my Iphone for my home airport and I heard this.
 
The only option that would have complied with that request is the blue line and that is just plain stupid. Other path instructions would have been cross mid field or enter left downwind.

For left traffic...red would have been the correct procedure based on your location, but not what was instructed.

I would have clarified if ever unclear.
 
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MarkZ said:
According to the diagram, it would appear you have the 22's and the 4's reversed. However, if ATC gives you an instruction that seems confusing, I would ask a question. For example, "Tower, 12345 is west of the airport. Do you want 12345 to fly over the field to establish a left downwind for 22L?"
Click to expand...
Concur on all points.
 
evapilotaz said:
I'm embarrassed. I did have the number reversed. :mad2:

Now it makes sense. I was listening to ATC on my Iphone for my home airport and I heard this.
Click to expand...

Don't feel embarrassed.. I was at a class D a few weeks ago and using a Garmin 750 for the first time and had the view "zoomed out" and I thought I was a lot farther away than I was.. ( i hadn't looked at the actual milage yet). When I made my original call I was told to enter a left downwind for the appropriate runway.. As I realized I was directly over the numbers and waaaay high.. the controller came on and said "12345Airplane..Exactly what are you doing??" .. He was very cool and just vectored me a turn a round and I entered the pattern… Lesson learned!!
 
LOL I have flown into this airport many times and never reversed the numbers in the air unless I was flying inverted. Sitting in my office trying to visualize what the ATC just to the guy had me back words. I'm sitting here chair flying at work on a Friday. Shame on me.

Also I'm day dreaming about the flight I'm taking tomorrow.
 
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evapilotaz said:
Sorry if this is a bone head question. I'm still relearning things after getting current again after a 10 year no flying lay off.

In the picture below what path do I take? The airplane is the X.

ATC instructions are as follows.

ATC: Airplane 12345 make left base for 22L report entering left base.
Airplane 12345: left base 22L report left base Airplane 345

So what path do I take. :dunno:

The shortest path would be over fly the airport above pattern altitude swing wide and enter left base at pattern altitude.

What is correct here?
Click to expand...

Not getting into why you were there, but you could overfly midfield but you should ask them first. And dropping directly into left pattern was implied when they told you to join left pattern for that runway.
 
CTLSi said:
Not getting into why you were there, but you could overfly midfield but you should ask them first. And dropping directly into left pattern was implied when they told you to join left pattern for that runway.
Click to expand...
If you don't see that crossing over midfield in that situation at a tower-controlled airport with parallel runways doesn't make sense and requires clarification IAW 91.123 before doing it, I have to wonder whether your judgment is good enough to hold even Student Pilot solo privileges.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you don't see that crossing over midfield in that situation at a tower-controlled airport with parallel runways doesn't make sense and requires clarification IAW 91.123 before doing it, I have to wonder whether your judgment is good enough to hold even Student Pilot solo privileges.
Click to expand...

Did you read the part where he was listening to ATC? On the ground.
 
Old Geek said:
Did you read the part where he was listening to ATC? On the ground.
Click to expand...
I was speaking to CTLSi's assertion that a pilot receiving that call and interpreting it as did the OP could press on without clarification. If it doesn't make sense (and I think we all agree that it did not make sense in the OP's mind), you must (not "should", as CTLSi suggested) obtain clarification immediately. The regulations require you to find out without delay whether you misinterpreted (as the OP did) or the controller misspoke or the controller really wants you to do the illogical thing you think the controller told you to do.
 
Certainly I would ask clarification. It just seemed odd the tower would give such instructions so that is why I asked you people on POA. The instructions made since when I flipped the numbers around. I would never over fly a towered airport without getting permissions unless I was above Class D airspace. Then anything above that would be Class B.
 
Even after clearing up the runway direction confusion, this is still a good question.
And I am glad to see great answers: "clarify with the tower".
 
evapilotaz said:
Certainly I would ask clarification. It just seemed odd the tower would give such instructions so that is why I asked you people on POA. The instructions made since when I flipped the numbers around. I would never over fly a towered airport without getting permissions unless I was above Class D airspace. Then anything above that would be Class B.
Click to expand...


Lots of Class D airports do not have Class B above.
 
You can always talk to the controllers to clarify the instructions give.
 
evapilotaz said:
LOL I have flown into this airport many times and never reversed the numbers in the air unless I was flying inverted. Sitting in my office trying to visualize what the ATC just to the guy had me back words. I'm sitting here chair flying at work on a Friday. Shame on me.

Also I'm day dreaming about the flight I'm taking tomorrow.
Click to expand...

Swapping runway headings as well as reporting your position on the opposite side of the airport that you're really at are common problems for many pilots. For me the solution to both can be found on your DG if it has a heading bug.

For the runway issue, set the bug on the number of the runway you're expecting or have been cleared to. That gives a nice visual cue to your pattern entry and legs.

For relative location mistake, just peek at the bottom of the DG when you're headed towards the airport and report your position based on what you see there.
 
Ron Levy said:
If it doesn't make sense (and I think we all agree that it did not make sense in the OP's mind), you must (not "should", as CTLSi suggested) obtain clarification immediately. The regulations require you to find out without delay whether you misinterpreted (as the OP did) or the controller misspoke or the controller really wants you to do the illogical thing you think the controller told you to do.
Click to expand...

I'm actually relieved there's a rule about this.

I was arriving at a class D, after a long stressful day. I was given instructions to enter the pattern in a way that I could NOT make any sense of. The way I was visualizing it would have resulted in something about this messed up. So, I call up the tower again, and ask for clarification, but I was a total n00b about it. Felt like an idiot when he slowly explained it was a standard mid field left downwind entry.

I knew it was better to sound like an idiot than screw it up, but it didn't make it any easier to do.
 
Mistake Not... said:
I'm actually relieved there's a rule about this.
Click to expand...
In case anyone else's instructor forgot to mention this during their training, the regulation is 14 CFR 91.123(a), and the exact words are:

"When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC."

I emphasize "shall" (which in the FAA's regulations means you must do so, no choice at all) and "immediately" (which I don't think needs further definition). Sometimes pilots seem afraid to ask about this sort of thing for fear of the controller thinking them stupid or incompetent or the like, but I assure you, they'll think far worse of you if you guess wrong than if you ask for clarification.
 
Thie thing with clarifying is that either party could be making the mistake. I've been on both ends.

Going into HLG (class D), I announced 7 miles west. I was actually east. They told me to report crossing the river. There is no river on the east side. So I called the tower to clarify, they repeated "you're 7 miles west? report crossing the river". That's when I caught it.

And going into my home airport (class d), I was given a 2 mile left base for 23 even though I reported being SW. When I checked, they corrected it. Apparently, the last few planes had all come in from the east.

If it doesn't make sense, ask. I've never had a controller give me a problem about verifying instructions.
 
You might need a Metal Landing Calculator
 
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