Ugh, can't stick my landings

I never got around to doing that with my CFI, but I did do it solo a few days before my checkride, and it was very helpful. As an 11 hour student, however, I don't know if I had what it takes to do it, even with an instructor in the right seat. YMMV.
 
This.



I didn't really utilize power on landings, except for shortfields,

Do you mean soft-field landings? Usually best way to stop in a short amount of distance is a completely power off descent 5-10 kts below your normal approach speed and plop it on
 
Do you mean soft-field landings? Usually best way to stop in a short amount of distance is a completely power off descent 5-10 kts below your normal approach speed and plop it on

That sounds risky. That much below normal speed and my sink rate goes way up with no power. Not much airspeed left to slow that sink rate. Sure, it may keep it short, but I think it would be a bit hard and have no margin for error.
 
That sounds risky. That much below normal speed and my sink rate goes way up with no power. Not much airspeed left to slow that sink rate. Sure, it may keep it short, but I think it would be a bit hard and have no margin for error.
You can add power if needed - nobody's saying you have to keep the power off.

The idea of having a slower than normal approach speed and then "plop"ing it on (with the plop being about a couple of inches at most) at the appropriate spot is pretty much the textbook definition of a short-field landing. Run completely out of lift at the planned touchdown point, and get on the brakes.
 
That sounds risky. That much below normal speed and my sink rate goes way up with no power. Not much airspeed left to slow that sink rate. Sure, it may keep it short, but I think it would be a bit hard and have no margin for error.

This might help. What's Vx in your airplane? Have you done a Vx takeoff?

How much power did you need to go up? Did it go up, or were you walking away from wreckage at the end of the runway? (You're here so I know the answer. Just think it through.)

More importantly, how much power for slow flight at Vx at altitude? Was that unsafe? How much slower could you go before a power-on stall from level flight?

Now, can you do it 2' high, over the runway? Yes.

You're correct. The margin is lower but there's still a margin.

Apply what you know about takeoff speeds and level slow flight and your fears will be alleviated.

Get the throttle up. You know you need it from those experiences.

There's a downside to mentally separating takeoff, slow flight, and landings in your head as separate items with separate tasks. They're all based off of the same underlying aerodynamics.

The "building block" approach to learning includes a part where you bring the building blocks back together.

Make sense? ;)

I'm struggling with it too right now on the Instrument training. It all happens together. At the same time.
 
Do you mean soft-field landings? Usually best way to stop in a short amount of distance is a completely power off descent 5-10 kts below your normal approach speed and plop it on
No, I did not mean soft-field. I meant short-field.

Use power on a short-field approach with 40-degrees of flap and drag it over the fence with the stall horn just whimpering slightly (much like in good slow flight). Pull the power, nose-down to keep from stalling, roundout (hear the horn good) and then flare just as the wings give up the ghost.
 
First, forget about all that crap you wrote about. It will all take care of itself if you do the following.

Tell your instructor you want to practice by flying the length of the runway in landing attitude and configuration with the wheels approximately 12" from the runway, aligned with the centerline and just enough airspeed to remain airborne. You'll quickly learn the amount of power necessary to make it happen, and the corrections necessary to track the centerline. As you near the end of the runway, make a normal go-around and do it again. After two-three laps, establish the same position and once stabilized, reduce power slightly. It will land perfectly and you will then wonder what all the fuss was about.

Why is it so hard to get instructors to do this? It works in tricycles, tail draggers, and just about anything short of a jet. If you are in an area without regular access to crosswinds, you can try moving 10' or so either side of the centerline holding the airplane in alignment with the runway. Then crosswind landings get easy, too.

Ernie
 
Beats hell out of me, a guy taught me to do it in 1957 so it's not exactly new stuff. When you think about it, all the student problems are related to the transition from flying to rolling. They can fly down the approach path and can roll down the runway after touchdown, but they struggle with perfecting the "tweener" part just before touchdown. During a normal touch-and-go circuit, the student only has a few seconds to see and react to all the stuff that's happening. This drill extends that practice period from a few seconds to a couple of minutes or so, which is an eternity compared to the other method. But the number of CFI's who are Rhodes scholars isn't all that great either.

Why is it so hard to get instructors to do this? It works in tricycles, tail draggers, and just about anything short of a jet. If you are in an area without regular access to crosswinds, you can try moving 10' or so either side of the centerline holding the airplane in alignment with the runway. Then crosswind landings get easy, too.

Ernie
 
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And if you do it for crosswinds where the CFI does the rudder while the student does the ailerons and then vice versa it helps with that part too. I had an old cfi tell me that he used to have his students fly miles along a fence line in wind and that when they got back to the runway it was easy....
 
During a normal touch-and-go circuit, the student only has a few seconds to see and react to all the stuff that's happening. This drill extends that practice period from a few seconds to a couple of minutes or so, which is an eternity compared to the other method. But the number of CFI's who are Rhodes scholars isn't all that great either.

I'm not a Rhodes Scholar and I don't use the term "flare."

We descend, then we transition to level slow flight. Then the wheels start rolling. Bam.
 
This.

As soon as a pilot figures out that landing is level slow flight with a precise heading, it all comes together.


+1000

Exactly!!!!

We all have gone through this....manage your airspeed, do the low-level practice just over the runway a few times with your instructor, you'll get the sight picture down in your head, then amazingly, the plane will just touch down.

Like others have said, don't over think this too much.
 
Charles Schulz said it best.

It does take practice... one day it will just click and you will have it. We've all "blonked" our share of landings!

-Skip
 

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I am trying to look farther down the runway like my instructor has advised. I think maybe I'm not understanding WHAT the plane is supposed to do during this 5 second period. Is the idea that the initial roundout is to simply level the plane off and hold it there, waiting for the ground effect to go away? And then as all that goes away, start pulling back more for the flare? I mean, I've watched a million landings before but the feel of it from the cockpit is proving to be sort of counter-intuitive...
A few things to consider:

As Bob wrote, ground effect doesn't "go away" as you slow down but that's not anything you need to be concerned about now. What does "go away" (i.e. diminish as you slow down) is the effectiveness of the controls, especially the elevator. Compounding that is the fact that you need to raise the nose higher and higher as you slow down to maintain lift (prior to stalling of course). So a proper roundout and touchdown requires that you gradually but continually pull the wheel or stick back further and further until you touch down. In the ideal case you will have the wheel nearly or completely all the way back at the same point in time that your wheels are a half inch above the pavement but that's not necessary or realistic when just learning to land. The key point is you cannot stop moving the elevator even though that's almost always exactly what your instincts are telling you to do.

As to looking way down the runway and what you're trying to see then, watching the distant horizon makes it much easier to sense how fast you are sinking and how high the airplane's nose is. Like I mentioned your pitch attitude should be increasing, at least until you clearly have the nosewheel higher than the mains (touching down nose first can cause serious problems). If you have power available you don't have to raise it any higher than that if you use power to control the descent rate at that point but this is an "improper" technique that won't work when you need to make a power off landing so I'd try to avoid it if you can. As long as you are above stall speed you can and should control the descent rate by adjusting pitch with the elevator. Your goal should be to reduce the sink rate gradually as your height above the runway decreases from a few feet to a few inches or less. That exercise someone suggested where you fly down the runway at low speed without trying to touch down is a good way to learn how to sense sink rate while looking far ahead.

BTW looking at the far end actually makes it more difficult to judge the distance between your wheels and the runway so what I find works best is to switch your focus back and forth between the far end and about 20-30 feet ahead. That way you get the ability to see the sink rate and your height.

Finally I want to relate a problem I had when learning to land. For some reason I had a strong subconscious desire to touch down with the wings level and no one ever explained that this is neither necessary nor desired if there's any crosswind. I think I had some kind of fear that if one main wheel touched before the other the plane would veer off the runway but in reality there's no such effect. This is really a crosswind issue but unless the wind is calm there's almost always at least a slight crosswind component which will cause the plane to drift toward one side of the runway if you don't correct for it. And the only correction that works is to lower the wing into the crosswind while using the rudder to keep the plane aligned. In light winds you don't have to think about which wing to hold lower, just "steer" the airplane with the ailerons and keep the plane in the center without worrying about how level the wings are. If the plane stays in the middle and you keep it pointed down the runway you've got the right bank angle.
Bruce Chien has often posted his "butt sink" method for the roundout and touchdown and it goes something like this:

Maintain pitch attitude and airspeed down your approach until you've passed the threshold and are about 10-20 feet above the runway.

Start raising the nose until it feels like your butt isn't sinking anymore. With a little luck you'll be no more than a few feet above the runway at that point.

Hold that pitch attitude until you feel your butt sink some more and then stop the sinking or at least slow it down to almost nothing.

Repeat that until your wheels touch. Each time you sense you are sinking pull back a little to arrest the sink and the result will be that you will have very little vertical speed when you touch down.

In reality, much of your sense of "butt sinking" should come from watching the far end of the runway (actually the far horizon but the difference is minimal in a 172 on a 2500+ ft runway). But if you stare at the far horizon you will have little idea of how high you are and the touch down is likely to occur earlier or later than you might expect.

The rest of the landing technique involves keeping the plane in the center of the runway with the ailerons and pointed down (aligned with) the runway using the rudder pedals. At first this feels like rubbing your tummy with one hand while patting your head with the other but eventually most of it becomes "muscle memory" leaving your cognitive bandwith for more of a supervisory function.
 
Thanks for the explanation Gismo. I'm having almost the exact same experience as you described and it's getting pretty discouraging. This helps.
 
Agreed, thanks very much for all the advice and input everyone.

Just an update for ya'll -- just had my next lesson since the one that started this thread (the couple lessons in between were canceled as a result of inconsiderate weather) and my landings were much improved! In fact, they were my best landings yet (probably around 6 or 7 of them) and no instructor assistance the whole time, totally "my controls." No bounces, no high flares, no trouble with the ground effect, it just sort of all worked this time. I think what some of you said was absolutely right -- it really is a feel thing. Practice makes decent apparently in this case and it seems now in retrospect that I was trying to over-think it before. This time around it sort of just clicked, I imagine not unlike the first time I was able to stay upright on a bike. I even nailed a couple no-flap landings (those were fun). My instructor is now beginning to talk about the next couple of lessons before my solo, a conversation which by itself has some serious power over my digestive tract... !! ...but that's a discussion for another thread I'm sure...:yikes:
 
Yeah by the time you can land the plane most of the basics have been covered. Practice a few emergency situations that you hopefully won't have on your first solo and then its time for the birdy to fly from the nest.. Momentous though something you will never forget and then you get to doing cross-country flights [also some night some more sim inst] and practicing for the checkride. Definitely a new thread.

<---<^>--->
 
By any chance do you have this sensation where everything goes slow and then speeds up? On short final I tend to fixate on the aim point and then lose my approach after passing the aim point. I do the same thing and either float like a blimp or fall like a rock.
Nice to know that someone else does this too, good luck!
 
By any chance do you have this sensation where everything goes slow and then speeds up? On short final I tend to fixate on the aim point and then lose my approach after passing the aim point. I do the same thing and either float like a blimp or fall like a rock.
Nice to know that someone else does this too, good luck!

Don't fixate on the touch down point..... Look way down the runway and with practice you will be able to stall it right at the touchdown point while you are at 3" above the runway...... Practice makes perfect......:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod:

Ben
 
Don't fixate on the touch down point..... Look way down the runway and with practice you will be able to stall it right at the touchdown point while you are at 3" above the runway...... Practice makes perfect......:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod:

Ben
IMO it is correct to "fixate" on the aiming point (usually 100-500 feet before the actual touchdown point) while flying down the final but once you begin to decrease your pitch attitude for landing (ideally starting about 10ft AGL in most trainers) it is important to shift your focus to the far end / horizon. I think many CFIs are remiss in neither point out the necessity of this nor reminding their students of this during the landing until they start remembering to do it on their own.
 
IMO it is correct to "fixate" on the aiming point (usually 100-500 feet before the actual touchdown point) while flying down the final but once you begin to decrease your pitch attitude for landing (ideally starting about 10ft AGL in most trainers) it is important to shift your focus to the far end / horizon. I think many CFIs are remiss in neither point out the necessity of this nor reminding their students of this during the landing until they start remembering to do it on their own.


That's why the fly-above-the runway drill is so effective -- it's impossible without shifting focus.
 
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