Two WX-Related Crashes in TX

SCCutler

SCCutler

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Spike Cutler
SCCutler said:
We are our own worst enemy.
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True. But as I have said before, I find this more comforting than knowing the semi driver over the line or the deer stumbling through the road is my worst enemy.
 
Have you noticed that "brightest and best" is a seldom-used term to define the GA pilot population? I'll never forget the time I visited Dyersberg, TN to discuss tax planning with the town's leading doctor. The FBO owner greeted me and said someone on the staff would arrive soon to provide transportation to the meeting, and pointed out a shiny 172 sitting nearby.

Then he said "That's Doc's airplane, he bought it from me, I taught him to fly it, and now it's on leaseback to us. Not sure if I did the world a favor when I taught him to fly, the only thing more dangerous than a doctor in an airplane is a cajun in a log truck."

SCCutler said:
First, a family flying from Atlanta to Waco (via JAN) in a PA32 goes down trying to penetrate (or somehow deal with) a storm front (and it was nasty).

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N3590T/history/20111219/2340Z/KJAN/KCNW/tracklog

Then, a 172 flying from San Antonio to Denton (KDTO) in the wee hours crashes in poor vis.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N987BT

We are our own worst enemy.

Sigh.
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SCCutler said:
Then, a 172 flying from San Antonio to Denton (KDTO) in the wee hours crashes in poor vis.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N987BT
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From the Denton Record Chronicle Website:

http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedconte...ash_1220.3565179b3.html#slcgm_comments_anchor

One dead in plane crash near Denton Airport 7:21 AM CT

07:21 AM CST on Tuesday, December 20, 2011
By Donna Fielder / Staff Writer
One person is confirmed dead and two others injured after a plane went down in the early-morning hours today near the Denton Municipal Airport.

Officer Ryan Grelle said police were notified about 2 a.m. that the FAA lost contact with the plane half an hour earlier. Officers responding to determine whether the plane had landed safely did not see a plane but found a victim wandering nearby.

Grelle said the victim was a passenger, but he did not know if it was a male or female. The victim suffered a leg injury and a head injury and was in shock, he said. The victim was not able to tell officers the direction he came from or how many others were aboard.

Sheriff’s deputies, firefighters and a Fort Worth helicopter joined police in the search for the downed plane.

“We found the wreckage of the plane about 6 a.m. northwest of the airport off Masch Branch Road,” Grelle said. “We extricated one live victim from the wreckage and found one dead victim.”

Grelle had no information about the Cessna, where it is registered or where it came from. Area reports link the Cessna to a Denton company that caters to private luxury flights.​

The last sentence of that report is not accurate, but I can't blame the reporter for that due to this being a quick and early filing.

If the aircraft really is N987BT, then that is a a C172R owned by US Aviation Group, the parent company of US Flight Academy at KDTO.

Masch Branch Road is a north-south road that is just north of the airport (link). On clear days, you'll see it nearly lines up with the centerline and is used as an extended centerline. So if that is where the wreckage is, they were close to the airport and close to being in the final approach phase.
 
The Denton crash weather (news says they left Denton, went to SanAnton, returned almost to the Denton airport at 2am today:
http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpp/news/1-Killed-in-Denton-Plane-Crash-122011
The altitude log looks more like they were trying to go vfr.

KDTO 200753Z AUTO 17007KT 3/4SM BR VV002 11/11 A2985 RMK AO2 SLP105 T01060106
KDTO 200725Z AUTO 15007KT 1/2SM FG VV002 10/10 A2985 RMK AO2
KDTO 200704Z AUTO 15007KT 1/4SM FG VV001 10/09 A2985 RMK AO2
KDTO 200653Z AUTO 14004KT 1/2SM FG VV001 08/08 A2984 RMK AO2 SLP102 T00830083
KDTO 200645Z AUTO 15004KT 1/2SM FG VV001 08/08 A2984 RMK AO2
KDTO 200553Z AUTO 17004KT 1/4SM FG VV001 10/10 A2984 RMK AO2 SLP102 P0001 60001 T01000100 10139 20100 401720100 50002
KDTO 200453Z AUTO 20003KT 1/4SM FG VV001 11/11 A2985 RMK AO2 SLP106 T01060106
KDTO 200416Z AUTO 16004KT 1/4SM FG BKN001 BKN110 11/11 A2985 RMK AO2
KDTO 200408Z AUTO 15005KT 1 3/4SM BR FEW001 BKN110 12/12 A2985 RMK AO2
KDTO 200353Z AUTO 14006KT 6SM BR FEW002 SCT100 12/12 A2985 RMK AO2 SLP104 T01220122
KDTO 200332Z 13003KT 5SM BR FEW002 12/12 A2983 RMK AO2
 
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That is really sad. Teaching, and learning good judgment when it comes to flying small airplanes seems to be critical.
 
dmccormack said:
You can miss every weather question on any knowledge exam at any certificate level and still pass.

:nonod:
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That is actually an interesting point, Dan.....there really isn't that much emphasis put on weather - either in the written exams OR any of the orals I have taken.
 
You can't teach common sense or good judgement. Sorry for the families and friends of these pilots, especially at this time of the year.
 
That may or may not be true. There's at least some evidence that recurrent training may have an impact on these issues.

See Jay Hopkins Recurrent Training article in Jan 2012 Flying Magazine.

N2124v said:
You can't teach common sense or good judgement. .
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wabower said:
That may or may not be true. There's at least some evidence that recurrent training may have an impact on these issues.

See Jay Hopkins Recurrent Training article in Jan 2012 Flying Magazine.
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Wayne, I'd wager the folks who sign up and participate in recurrent training have thereby exercised good judgement, and therefore skew the results.

MU-2s had a bad record. The only people still flying them have mandatory recurrent training and a commitment.

I'm all in favor of an annual training requirement, especially for all pilots after the Private until they achieve 500 hours. After that a BFR should be sufficient.

I'm making up a flyer now to post at my local airport offering such a service at a reduced rate.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
The Denton crash weather (news says they left Denton, went to SanAnton, returned almost to the Denton airport at 2am today:
http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpp/news/1-Killed-in-Denton-Plane-Crash-122011
The altitude log looks more like they were trying to go vfr.

KDTO 200753Z AUTO 17007KT 3/4SM BR VV002 11/11 A2985 RMK AO2 SLP105 T01060106
KDTO 200725Z AUTO 15007KT 1/2SM FG VV002 10/10 A2985 RMK AO2
KDTO 200704Z AUTO 15007KT 1/4SM FG VV001 10/09 A2985 RMK AO2
KDTO 200653Z AUTO 14004KT 1/2SM FG VV001 08/08 A2984 RMK AO2 SLP102 T00830083
KDTO 200645Z AUTO 15004KT 1/2SM FG VV001 08/08 A2984 RMK AO2
KDTO 200553Z AUTO 17004KT 1/4SM FG VV001 10/10 A2984 RMK AO2 SLP102 P0001 60001 T01000100 10139 20100 401720100 50002
KDTO 200453Z AUTO 20003KT 1/4SM FG VV001 11/11 A2985 RMK AO2 SLP106 T01060106
KDTO 200416Z AUTO 16004KT 1/4SM FG BKN001 BKN110 11/11 A2985 RMK AO2
KDTO 200408Z AUTO 15005KT 1 3/4SM BR FEW001 BKN110 12/12 A2985 RMK AO2
KDTO 200353Z AUTO 14006KT 6SM BR FEW002 SCT100 12/12 A2985 RMK AO2 SLP104 T01220122
KDTO 200332Z 13003KT 5SM BR FEW002 12/12 A2983 RMK AO2
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There is no route referenced in the FA listing - I cannot believe it, but it appears that they were flying VFR. This is incredible.
 
So you think a 500-hour PPL who's 23 months into a FR and hasn't flown since should be able to do 3 laps around the airport and then fly his family to Atlanta?

dmccormack said:
Wayne, I'd wager the folks who sign up and participate in recurrent training have thereby exercised good judgement, and therefore skew the results.

MU-2s had a bad record. The only people still flying them have mandatory recurrent training and a commitment.

I'm all in favor of an annual training requirement, especially for all pilots after the Private until they achieve 500 hours. After that a BFR should be sufficient.

I'm making up a flyer now to post at my local airport offering such a service at a reduced rate.
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SCCutler said:
There is no route referenced in the FA listing - I cannot believe it, but it appears that they were flying VFR. This is incredible.
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Not necessarily. This sounds like a fog layer to me, or a low level cloud layer. They could have been on top of the layer flying VFR. I would hope the pilot would not attempt VFR into IMC in those conditions. If he was part 91 he was absolutely legal to shoot an approach into the airport.
 
wabower said:
So you think a 500-hour PPL who's 23 months into a FR and hasn't flown since should be able to do 3 laps around the airport and then fly his family to Atlanta?
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Great point. This is really sad. This year has been really bad for GA.
 
The KDTO crash appears to have been two Chinese students with an instructor doing instrument training. Conditions at the time of the accident were VFR but they were on an IFR flight plan. The tower at KDTO was not operational at the time so they were handed off to KDTO CTAF by regional approach for final.

It is still not clear at this time whether the fatality was the instructor or one of the students. One of the survivors is in critical condition and the other is in good condition with non-life-threatening injuries.
 
wabower said:
So you think a 500-hour PPL who's 23 months into a FR and hasn't flown since should be able to do 3 laps around the airport and then fly his family to Atlanta?
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Yes. But, if for any reason they have doubt in their mind over the trip, then they need to put the brakes on the trip. Then not go until they have enough recent experience to be reasonably comfortable with the task at hand.
 
wabower said:
So you think a 500-hour PPL who's 23 months into a FR and hasn't flown since should be able to do 3 laps around the airport and then fly his family to Atlanta?
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1. It's not up to me.
2. Freedom means some will choose wrong.
3. I've stated my position on recurrent training.
 
DrMack said:
The KDTO crash appears to have been two Chinese students with an instructor doing instrument training. Conditions at the time of the accident were VFR but they were on an IFR flight plan. The tower at KDTO was not operational at the time so they were handed off to KDTO CTAF by regional approach for final.

It is still not clear at this time whether the fatality was the instructor or one of the students. One of the survivors is in critical condition and the other is in good condition with non-life-threatening injuries.
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Is this one of those "the Instructor is in the back seat" things? I hate those... just on principal.

I've seen places doing it in various aircraft (usually light twins) to "save people money" over the years, and I always think... "That's really stupid."
 
Are we thinking this honor system is getting us where we want to go?

LearDriver said:
Yes. But, if for any reason they have doubt in their mind over the trip, then they need to put the brakes on the trip. Then not go until they have enough recent experience to be reasonably comfortable with the task at hand.
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It now appears that a student was killed and the instructor is in critical condition. The school has shut down for the day.

I have met many of the Chinese students at the school. They are all very bright young men and a few women. To be accepted into the program is a huge accomplishment and competition for slots is brutal.

The school was rocked two weeks ago by the tragic death of one of their dispatchers in an apparent firearms accident so it's pretty tough on everyone there right now.

The school is well run and the standard of professionalism is quite high. All the instructors, support staff, and foreign students wear uniforms. Domestic students are easy to spot because of their casual dress.
 
LearDriver said:
Yes. But, if for any reason they have doubt in their mind over the trip, then they need to put the brakes on the trip. Then not go until they have enough recent experience to be reasonably comfortable with the task at hand.
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Just because you exercise good judgement and have doubt, doesn't mean anyone else will. We all say there is a difference between safe and legal. Well for a lot of people there is only a difference between legal and illegal. Legal = good to go! :/
 
denverpilot said:
Is this one of those "the Instructor is in the back seat" things? I hate those... just on principal.

I've seen places doing it in various aircraft (usually light twins) to "save people money" over the years, and I always think... "That's really stupid."
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Well the CFI can't exercise his privileges from the back seat. I would never do it thats for darn sure, just asking for trouble.
 
DrMack said:
The school is well run and the standard of professionalism is quite high. All the instructors, support staff, and foreign students wear uniforms. Domestic students are easy to spot because of their casual dress.
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Uniforms have zero to do with flying skill or judgement. But the uniform makes the dead person look like a snappy dresser, I guess.

(I always hate when you go to a funeral and they put a guy in a suit who never wore one his entire life.)
 
Talking to a few former employees of this place, it sounds this crash was in the making for a long time.
 
RyanShort1 said:
According to the San Antonio Express News the instructor is the deceased individual...

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/lo...s-off-from-San-Antonio-crashes-in-2414251.php

I just landed there at Twin Oaks (where they departed) a little over a week ago to claim it for Operation Fly...

:( :sad:

Ryan
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Interesting - This article which lists names seems to indicate that the pilot (Chinese student) was killed in the crash and one of the two taken to the hospital was the instructor.
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Plan-135918103.html

FWIW - two were Chineese airline students and one was Chinese with US citizenship - probably the CFI.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Interesting - This article which lists names seems to indicate that the pilot (Chinese student) was killed in the crash and one of the two taken to the hospital was the instructor.
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Plan-135918103.html

FWIW - two were Chineese airline students and one was Chinese with US citizenship - probably the CFI.
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Hmphf! That wouldn't be the first time our local rag has been wrong...

Here's what the local paper's article said.
An instructor pilot died and two people were injured early Tuesday when a single-engine aircraft flying from San Antonio to Denton crashed at its destination, according to officials.
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I think your article is probably correct, though.

Ryan
 
denverpilot said:
Uniforms have zero to do with flying skill or judgement. But the uniform makes the dead person look like a snappy dresser, I guess.

(I always hate when you go to a funeral and they put a guy in a suit who never wore one his entire life.)
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The only suit I ever liked was a flightsuit...I hate neckties! I feel like it's a noose around my neck, I also hate ascots and bowties. My Grandfather always told me never trust a man wearing a bowtie!:nono:
(I'm not talking about prom or wedding...it's allowed then.)
 
historical TAFs? This would clarify a lot for me. (Was it a surprise?) I want to know what they were looking at, just before launch time.
 
dmccormack said:
I'm making up a flyer now to post at my local airport offering such a service at a reduced rate.
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Have you thought about targeting the guys who might need some help by using specific language or teases in your ads?

Not flying as much, need to get back in the game?

Want a little help to re-sharpen your tools?

Been a while since you were current?

Want a little refresher before your next trip?

Airplanes aren't the only things that get rusty from disuse. Need to get polished up?

You haven't flown as PIC since when?
 
wabower said:
Have you thought about targeting the guys who might need some help by using specific language or teases in your ads?

Not flying as much, need to get back in the game?

Want a little help to re-sharpen your tools?

Been a while since you were current?

Want a little refresher before your next trip?

Airplanes aren't the only things that get rusty from disuse. Need to get polished up?

You haven't flown as PIC since when?
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I hadn't given it that much thought, but I'll gladly use these!

(Except for maybe the last one :D )
 
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