Two more Q

Richard

Final Approach
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Ack...city life
On a Part 91 flight down to the Carribean out of FLA you declare an emergency and land at Gitmo, whose country did you land in?

Those forward facing wire cutters on helicopters...how do they work? In the event of a wire strike do the cutters in any way deflect the wire down and away from the rotor disc? Or do you take what you get with the possibilty that the wire will deflect upward into the important parts?

Also, what are the actions of the pilot, ie, control inputs? Does he attempt to manage the amount of force applied against the wire? It seems like an attempt to back away from the wire after contact could be a wrong course of action.
 
Excellent question Richard. I have often wondered the same things.
Look forward to the answers.

Michael
 
Richard said:
On a Part 91 flight down to the Carribean out of FLA you declare an emergency and land at Gitmo, whose country did you land in?
Dunno 'bout the fine points of international legalities, but for all practical purposes, you landed without prior permission at a US military base, and you'd be in about the same situation as you'd be in if you landed in an emergency at a US military base anywhere else -- you would be looking up the muzzles of M-16's held by teenagers with little education and a lot of attitude, you would not be able to get either avgas or repairs, and neither you nor your plane would be going anywhere until they sorted out the situation. It might even be worse, since due to the tensions and ongoing provocations back and forth, the Marines at Gitmo are a bit itchier on the trigger than the average USAF Sky Cop at Back-and-beyond AFB in North Dakota. However, you would have no fears of being turned over to the Cubans (although that might be better than facing teenagers with automatic weapons).

IOW, it's a great alternative if you have a serious problem and nowhere better to go, but it's not something you'd want to do just for a potty break.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Dunno 'bout the fine points of international legalities, but for all practical purposes, you landed without prior permission at a US military base, and you'd be in about the same situation as you'd be in if you landed in an emergency at a US military base anywhere else -- you would be looking up the muzzles of M-16's held by teenagers with little education and a lot of attitude, you would not be able to get either avgas or repairs, and neither you nor your plane would be going anywhere until they sorted out the situation. It might even be worse, since due to the tensions and ongoing provocations back and forth, the Marines at Gitmo are a bit itchier on the trigger than the average USAF Sky Cop at Back-and-beyond AFB in North Dakota. However, you would have no fears of being turned over to the Cubans (although that might be better than facing teenagers with automatic weapons).

IOW, it's a great alternative if you have a serious problem and nowhere better to go, but it's not something you'd want to do just for a potty break.

Ron, I thought anywhere, including military aprts, was game in the event of an emergency.
 
Richard said:
Ron, I thought anywhere, including military aprts, was game in the event of an emergency.

They are. BTDT without any of the issues Ron claimed. YMMV.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
They are. BTDT without any of the issues Ron claimed. YMMV.

An older female student pilot from here landed at Shaw AFB on a cross country a few years ago. She was met by uniformed men carrying weapons. By the time she left she had been a guest for tea at the home of the commander of the base and was invited to come back and land any time she wanted to. Talk about charm :)

Of course, that was pre-911.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
They are. BTDT without any of the issues Ron claimed. YMMV.
It depends on the installation. Land at a training base in Oklahoma, it's no biggie. Land at Gitmo (which is on a wartime footing 24/7), you'll be met by armed personnel even in an emergency, especially given its current status as a holding facility for baddies. The emergency declaration gets you past the "permission required" rule, but in this post-9/11 world, they will be very cautious in dealing with you once you're on the ground until your bona fides are established. Especially at Gitmo, the first people to meet you will almost certainly be either armed security forces or accompanied by them. But don't let that deter you if you need a place to land NOW.
 
Wouldn't the cubans shoot you down for entering their airspace long before you got to Gitmo?

I remember watching a show on the discovery channel about a voluntary organization that searches the waters between FL and Cuba for stranded (in trouble) refugee boats. During the course of that show they talked a bit about how one of their airplanes was shot down after entering Cuba's air space...
 
inav8r said:
Wouldn't the cubans shoot you down for entering their airspace long before you got to Gitmo?

I remember watching a show on the discovery channel about a voluntary organization that searches the waters between FL and Cuba for stranded (in trouble) refugee boats. During the course of that show they talked a bit about how one of their airplanes was shot down after entering Cuba's air space...


I wouldn't put it past them. The group you are refering to is called Brothers to the Rescue. They operate a fleet of Cessna 337's. I do think however, that there is a corridor that passes over Cuba that GA aircraft can use if on IFR plan. Does anyone know if this corridor passes near Gitmo?:dunno:
 
Ron Levy said:
It depends on the installation.

That would be the distinction you absolutely failed to make in your first post--in fact, you specifically claimed that gun barrels would be the norm at any military base. It was that global mis-information in your previous post which I corrected/countered.

Land at a training base in Oklahoma, it's no biggie.

Your previous (erroneous) post managed to create enough confusion that someone else made a post questioning whether or not one could use a military base in an emergency. Someone has an emergency and opts to land off field for fear of gun barrels? Not good. Not good at all.

BTW, not just training base, nor just training bases in Oklahoma. Sure, Gitmo may be at one end of the spectrum, but there are plenty of other US military bases that wouldn't arouse much more excitement than a visit by the crash crews. As I wrote before, BTDT.
 
Having been one of the poorly educated teenagers with an automatic weapon skycops that were referenced earlier, and having actually dealt with civilian aircraft landing at military installations, I'll say it depends. In one case, a pilot mistook our base for a nearby airport, landed unannounced and tried to taxi into an alert area to turn around because he'd already figured out he'd made a terrible error. His initial reception did indeed involve looking down the barrel of my weapon. Once we'd searched his plane and figured out who he was, we shook his hand, chatted a bit while the Wing King was briefed, and sent him on his way. Took about an hour. I know, falling into the hands of an uneducated (in actuality, a surprising number of us even knew how to read, some of us had a whee bit of college and other education, and more than a few had their degrees) neanderthal with a gun is an awful thing, as is startling that same thug who is busy protecting our nation's priority resouces against an unknown possible threat, but the pilot seemed to weather the experience without undue difficulty.

In another instance, an airliner landed at our base after arriving overhead, finding the international airport closed due to weather, and having nowhere else to go. In this case, we knew they were coming and made crew and passengers as comfortable as possible. Same base, two different situations.

Personally, I wouldn't say either case was worse than being imprisoned by Communist Cubans, who have indeed been known to just shoot down GA aircraft and kill the crews that irritated them, but that's just my opinion.

This post was written with a bit of tongue in cheek.. don't anybody get your panties in a wad.
 
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Joe Williams said:
This post was written with a bit of tongue in cheek.. don't anybody get your panties in a wad.

Understood and I think so was Ron's first post. I have heard of folks having rather cold receptions north of Las Vegas. Hangar tales only of course.:D
 
As any semi-literate Neanderthal knows, even after several beers, it's "wee".


Would y'all hazard to guess as to the original questions?
 
Richard said:
As any semi-literate Neanderthal knows, even after several beers, it's "wee".


Would y'all hazard to guess as to the original questions?

Oh.. thought you were curious as to your reception LOL

Gitmo = US territory, for now.
 
Joe Williams said:
Oh.. thought you were curious as to your reception LOL

Gitmo = US territory, for now.

Really, I hadn't thought of that. In the event of an emergency I have no problem putting down at the nearest suitable even if it's a mil aprt on high alert. Muzzles in my face don't bother me as much as knowing whose finger is on the trigger.

What got me started on this is I have always been intrigued how a USA military installation got to and remains in a commie country. This current Gitmo flap has no bearing on my point of interest.

I would think a landing on the base would put you on American soil, on paper at least. Getting the a/c out of there is a different story. Does the US military have a flight corridor ("owned" by the US) in and out of the base? Would a civilian GA flight be approved into that? Would the Cubans grant the request for a civilian GA to transit their airspace? Lots of questions...
 
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When Gitmo was established, Cuba was not a Communist country. We'd gotten a lease from the former regime, and have just refused to give it up. There are approved corriders, which I doubt Cuba likes, but was smart enough to provide, avoiding an unwinnable situation for them. As to whether or not you'd be allowed to leave? Probably more up to the Cubans than the US, would be my guess. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if your plane floated home on a boat.
 
Joe Williams said:
As to whether or not you'd be allowed to leave? Probably more up to the Cubans than the US, would be my guess. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if your plane floated home on a boat.
It would be entirely up to the Commander, NAS Guantanamo Bay, and the US Navy, not the Cubans, who (much to there distinct displeasure) have no say on what goes on at Gitmo, or who enters or leaves (other than through the fence).
 
Richard said:
Those forward facing wire cutters on helicopters...how do they work? In the event of a wire strike do the cutters in any way deflect the wire down and away from the rotor disc? Or do you take what you get with the possibilty that the wire will deflect upward into the important parts?

I believe thqt the wire gets pretty well loaded (stretched) before the cutter actually cuts which would mean that the ends of the wire will be flying apart (sideways) rather than up or down.

Also, what are the actions of the pilot, ie, control inputs? Does he attempt to manage the amount of force applied against the wire? It seems like an attempt to back away from the wire after contact could be a wrong course of action.

Just guessing, but I imagine that the typical wire strike happens so quickly that the pilot's first reaction won't take effect until after the wire is cut.
 
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