Wanted: Aircraft Twin

muddy00

muddy00

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Aug 19, 2014
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muddy00
looking for a nice clean twin to build time in. Prefer under 100k
 
Nice clean,time builder twin ,doesn’t usually exist. There are however a good number of time building twins around.
 
If you're just building time, why not a nice Apache? I'm sure you can get a clean one for well less than $100K...
 
Radar Contact said:
Nice. I wonder if the airlines care about center-line thrust time vs normal? My guess is no. When I was instructing in the Air Force I had to help an F15 driver remove that off his multi-rating.
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I'm guessing not - back when I was in the left seat I flew with plenty of guys that were straight out of the F-16, F-18, etc. Perhaps they get that restriction removed as part of their initial training at the airline? I'm sure someone around here knows for sure.
 
I’m selling Cloud Nine’s 414 - a great option and priced at $100k. :)
 
kayoh190 said:
I'm guessing not - back when I was in the left seat I flew with plenty of guys that were straight out of the F-16, F-18, etc. Perhaps they get that restriction removed as part of their initial training at the airline? I'm sure someone around here knows for sure.
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I think most guys get it removed when they get their ATP.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I’m selling Cloud Nine’s 414 - a great option and priced at $100k. :)
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Sounds like one could build more time for the A&P cert than ME time with the current condition of that plane. :oops:
 
wayne said:
Sounds like one could build more time for the A&P cert than ME time with the current condition of that plane. :oops:
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Needs a few cylinders. I’ve done all the hard stuff already. Cylinders are easy.
 
Radar Contact said:
Nice. I wonder if the airlines care about center-line thrust time vs normal? My guess is no. When I was instructing in the Air Force I had to help an F15 driver remove that off his multi-rating.
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Lol, the airlines dont even care about multi time, and the few that still do won't in a year or so.

Only multi time I'd log, beyond initial training, I'd be getting paid to log.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Needs a few cylinders. I’ve done all the hard stuff already. Cylinders are easy.
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Yep. One needs a lot more time for their A&P than that. Cylinders or new engines, and maybe AC. Just work.

It will be a good traveling plane for someone, you've ironed out most of the kinks. Just not exactly a budget time-builder plane.
 
James331 said:
Lol, the airlines dont even care about multi time, and the few that still do won't in a year or so.

Only multi time I'd log, beyond initial training, I'd be getting paid to log.
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Makes sense if they are short handed as they claim. The last time I was paying attention it was 17 years ago and they mandated 200 min multi time to get considered at the regional's.
 
wayne said:
Yep. One needs a lot more time for their A&P than that. Cylinders or new engines, and maybe AC. Just work.

It will be a good traveling plane for someone, you've ironed out most of the kinks. Just not exactly a budget time-builder plane.
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Fair point, but remember most cheap twins are going to require a ton of MX initially because they’ve been neglected. I’ve spent the past two years doing all that catch up MX that most twins will need when you buy them.

Add to that the fact that a 1977 414 is way more popular than Apaches or old 310s, and any work you do to it will actually increase its value.

It’s not a traditional time builder, no doubt, but it has a lot to offer long term and I’d argue that it could very well cost less over a shorter period of ownership than you’d likely get from a lot of “cheap” twins.

Just another perspective. :)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Fair point, but remember most cheap twins are going to require a ton of MX initially because they’ve been neglected. I’ve spent the past two years doing all that catch up MX that most twins will need when you buy them.

Add to that the fact that a 1977 414 is way more popular than Apaches or old 310s, and any work you do to it will actually increase its value.

It’s not a traditional time builder, no doubt, but it has a lot to offer long term and I’d argue that it could very well cost less over a shorter period of ownership than you’d likely get from a lot of “cheap” twins.

Just another perspective. :)
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I think many time builders are looking for something cheap that runs now and they hope that it doesn't break before they sell it to the next time builder. They are one major mx probably away from being in a painful financial position.

Time builders are in it for the short term. When they are buying instead of renting they are gambling they can do it cheaper. The odds may be better than a mega-lottery, but it's still playing the odds. If they don't have the money to invest, and I don't think most do, they should just block rent a twin and pour in the fuel. Then move on to the job for which they needed the ME time.

The sad thing is I think they would get much better experience traveling around the country in a 414 than 100/200/whatever time loitering around in a cheap NA piston twin. Laura just had some Regional pay her company for 100 hrs of 172 time for a guy so he could move up to the regionals. Her company has complex planes on the line. Nope, just needs 100 hrs. Nothing specific about weather, approaches, IFR, traveling. Just 100 hrs of 172 time. o_O Unfortunately the only two things that seem to matter are what's in the total hours and ME hours.

Someone looking for a traveling plane you're offering a good deal. They can do the engines to their liking and be in great shape. Whoever you sell to is going to get a nice plane.
 
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wayne said:
I think many time builders are looking for something cheap that runs now and they hope that it doesn't break before they sell it to the next time builder. They are one major mx probably away from being in a painful financial position.

Time builders are in it for the short term. When they are buying instead of renting they are gambling they can do it cheaper. The odds may be better than a mega-lottery, but it's still playing the odds. If they don't have the money to invest, and I don't think most do, they should just block rent a twin and pour in the fuel. Then move on to the job for which they needed the ME time.

The sad thing is I think they would get much better experience traveling around the country in a 414 than 100/200/whatever time loitering around in a cheap NA piston twin. Laura just had some Regional pay her company for 100 hrs of 172 time for a guy so he could move up to the regionals. Her company has complex planes on the line. Nope, just needs 100 hrs. Nothing specific about weather, approaches, IFR, traveling. Just 100 hrs of 172 time. o_O Unfortunately the only two things that seem to matter are what's in the total hours and ME hours.

Someone looking for a traveling plane you're offering a good deal. They can do the engines to their liking and be in great shape. Whoever you sell to is going to get a nice plane.
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Just one point of clarification, when I said "long term" I meant over the total ownership cycle, not implying a time builder would keep the plane for any significant period of time. Like you said, it's a matter of just building the hours and moving on. I agree with you fully that no matter what, you're playing the odds to some degree. I'm just pointing out that most old twins you find on the market have a LOT of catch-up MX that's needed on them, including items that need to get done for the sake of safety.

But I do agree the traditional buyer for the 414 will be someone looking for a traveling machine, and the 414 is a very nice one that's also pretty economical for what it is.
 
Too bad the internet has eaten all evidence of the LearBaron...
 
ktup-flyer said:
Sure is. Breitling owns it
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I missed that, that's actually not a shabby deal at all, only thing I could gripe on it is the geared engines.

But that's is a ton of plane for the price.
 
all the modern twin trainers would fit the bill. Problem is supply. Flight schools have absolutely gobbled them up. Only time they come up for sale is when they're completely run out (apparently the seminole wing spar is life limited). otherwise, common as hen's teeth. I've been trying to find seneca 1s as a candidate for a potential upgrade from the arrow, no dice. Twin comanches are probably the easiest thing to get into based on whats's advertised out there. Maybe older 310s. These twins have wildly varying yearly costs though, so the OP needs to define the kind of fixed outlay of yearly ownership cost they're willing to put up with. " time building" is too vague a reference to be of any use. Any airplane can be used for time building if money were no object.
 
MIFlyer said:
I'd already own it otherwise :)
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Throw 'em a lowball offer, and find a couple of used engines and props to put on there, do as much of the work yourself as you can, and you might be able to get a pretty decent plane for a pretty reasonable price!
 
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