Twin Navion

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
I was told today that my Twin Navion customer is a victim of the economy and has to cut costs, so the Navion may be for sale.

I know nothing of the times year or ? until after sunday the 13th when I get the logs and start the annual.
 
Henning said:
Which one? IIRC there are two different Twin Navions.
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What didn't you understand about

"I know nothing of the times year or ? until after sunday""
 
Geico266 said:
Take a grump pill this after noon? :dunno:

Geez Tom, take a deep breath and exhale.
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isn't it nice when you make a statement and then are asked what you say you don't know?
 
Henning said:
You said it was a customer of yours, you didn't say you never saw the plane before.
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I have repaired a couple panels he has brought to me..

that's a customer to me.
 
There are two twin Navion types.

Riley did the first three aircraft as "approved" modifications. This was done based on a note on the original Navion type certificate. One argues that this is the reason they came up with the STC process. These first three still bear the SN of the original single that they were converted from and BOTH data plates (single and twin) . The Riley D-16 (this type certificate now is owned by the American Navion Society) has two models one with O-320s and the other with O-340s. You can tell this visually because the vertical stab is literally an Navion horizonatal stabilizer mounted vertically.

The other is the CAMAIR. Again, the first one was done on 337 (techically a WE-1). This has the O-470's. This has a vertical stab that looks like a single engine Navion one, just scaled up in proportion. Also the engine nacelles are much more bulbous looking.

Twin Navions are somewhat of a subcult in the Navion group. There's a lot of info at www.twinnavion.com.
 
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Tom-D said:
What didn't you understand about

"I know nothing of the times year or ? until after sunday""
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Probably the for the same reason you made a post with zero information. Perhaps so you could come back and answer it when you do know instead of getting sideways about it. What was your intent in making the post on a discussion forum if not to discuss it?
 
So much for thinking some one here might be interested in the Navion..
 
Tom-D said:
So much for thinking some one here might be interested in the Navion..
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There was interest, but being crotchety about responding to any questions will quash that pretty fast.

As someone else asked, why post about the airplane if you don't have any info about it or the desire to answer questions?
 
Yes, without knowing if it's a Riley or Camair will make a lot of difference to many people. The character of these birds are quite different. The Riley has 150 a side and while was likely faster than the early 185 HP single Navions of the day, it wasn't likely faster than the contemporary Super 260 singles. It did have a substantial gross weight increase and carried more fuel.

The Camair with the 240 HP a side was getting up there in performance with the Cessna 310 of the day pushing the cruise performance to the single engine Navion red lines. They actually put 300 HP a side on one of the prototypes.

Note the Riley in the twin D-16 conversion is the same Jack Riley that did all the speed hacking on the 310s.
 
Hope it's the one that has the Lyc O-340. That should be fun.
 
kyleb said:
There was interest, but being crotchety about responding to any questions will quash that pretty fast.

As someone else asked, why post about the airplane if you don't have any info about it or the desire to answer questions?
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I was hoping that some one here would simply state they were interested in buying.

I guess my expectations was too high for this page.
 
Tom-D said:
I was hoping that some one here would simply state they were interested in buying.

I guess my expectations was too high for this page.
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Buying -- what? We don't know what it is, you don't know what it is, price, condition, engines, props, damage, radios? Maybe it's the one with the O-290 engine with zero OEI performance.
 
flyingron said:
There's a lot of info at www.twinnavion.com.
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I have enjoyed this thread, but only because of the above link posted. I didn't know much of anything about Twin Navions and now I do. Compare and contrast the story of the Twin Navion in the "history" section of that site to what we have now. These guys converted a single engine Navion to a twin engine Navion with just a 337 sign off and nobody died over the decades due to poor design, construction, or engineering. Wow.

We used to build stuff and invent things in this country.:(
 
Dav8or said:
These guys converted a single engine Navion to a twin engine Navion with just a 337 sign off and nobody died over the decades due to poor design, construction, or engineering. Wow.

We used to build stuff and invent things in this country.:(
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I noticed that too. Imagine how that 337 read: "Remove FWF and throw away. Remove wings, add an engine mount to each side, hang engine and prop. Plumb and wire. Attach wings. Weigh plane, go for a test flight." :eek:
 
I met with the owner today, and here is the info you wanted.

It is a package of two Twin Navions the second aircraft is a project or parts aircraft. There are 4 props that are airworthy, two of the 4 were reworked and returned to service as overhauled in 2008 and are running on the first aircraft, there are 4 engines, two are disassembled, two are installed and running on the first aircraft of the package. The second aircraft is disassembled, and on a trailer. It is a complete aircraft, and was airworthy when disassembled, and could be made to fly again.

Now for the first aircraft it is a Riley 55 conversion with Lycoming 0-340 / 175 horse power engines, at mid time, and freshly overhauled props.
It is in good to better condition, and has flown regularly until it went out of annual this year. It has been in a dry hangar next to mine for many years, and I didn't see any thing I would worry about to ferry it in this condition. It is in Navy grey camp paint scheme, which is fair or better condition. (Needs a buff out and a wax job)

I will not know times on the aircraft/ engines until I get the books on Wed this week. (so don't ask, or I'll ask what you don't understand about this statement)

The owner wants to sell rather than move the aircraft.

If you are serious about a nice gentle twin, or would like a twin Navion to play with, this is your chance to get in cheap. he is taking offers until Wed. this week, then I will do the Annual and he will keep the aircraft and move it.

The owner says,, he cruises it at 140k on 12-14 GPH with 140 gallons on board, seats 4, and will fly at gross on 1.

IF ….. would like to talk to the owner about buying, give me a message on FB, or if you know my E addy I will respond to you there, you will get his phone number, Tire kickers beware, this aircraft is for sale as is, where is, at a best offer before wed.

Folks that is all I know at this time, I'm nether a buyer, seller or broker, just a messenger.
 
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docmirror said:
I noticed that too. Imagine how that 337 read: "Remove FWF and throw away. Remove wings, add an engine mount to each side, hang engine and prop. Plumb and wire. Attach wings. Weigh plane, go for a test flight." :eek:
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Riley got it done.
 
BAH! It is the O-340 engine! lol. Can I pick-em, or can I pick-em. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
 
docmirror said:
Buying -- what? We don't know what it is, you don't know what it is, price, condition, engines, props, damage, radios? Maybe it's the one with the O-290 engine with zero OEI performance.
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I thought I made it quite clear that I did not know anything except it was for sale, yet I get questions, and you call me grumpy, OK I'm grumpy
 
flyingron said:
Yes, without knowing if it's a Riley or Camair will make a lot of difference to many people. The character of these birds are quite different. The Riley has 150 a side and while was likely faster than the early 185 HP single Navions of the day, it wasn't likely faster than the contemporary Super 260 singles. It did have a substantial gross weight increase and carried more fuel.

The Camair with the 240 HP a side was getting up there in performance with the Cessna 310 of the day pushing the cruise performance to the single engine Navion red lines. They actually put 300 HP a side on one of the prototypes.

Note the Riley in the twin D-16 conversion is the same Jack Riley that did all the speed hacking on the 310s.
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This is a D-16-A
 
docmirror said:
BAH! It is the O-340 engine! lol. Can I pick-em, or can I pick-em. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
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But can you fly one IAW the flight manual and have a lot of fun? or are you simply knocking some thing you know nothing about?
 
Tom-D said:
But can you fly one IAW the flight manual and have a lot of fun? or are you simply knocking some thing you know nothing about?
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Seems only fair if you were selling something you knew nothing about.
 
Tom-D said:
But can you fly one IAW the flight manual and have a lot of fun? or are you simply knocking some thing you know nothing about?
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Nope, but I know about the O-340 engine. I had one in an EXP years ago, and it was a vibrating SOB. Not to mention every major part on it is unobtanium.

Sorry, I'm sure it's a very nice plane overall. I'm a fan of the whole Navion line, and wouldn't mind owning one. Any Navion, except the O-340 powered version.
 
bartmc said:
Seems only fair if you were selling something you knew nothing about.
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If I were interested in one I would do my home work.

I simply am getting started in the Navion thing and was hoping to get a really good deal for some one here but it seems all I get is criticism from folks like you who are not the least bit interested in the Navion.

But I guess that is why this page has become known for its thread creep and BS'ers
 
docmirror said:
Nope, but I know about the O-340 engine. I had one in an EXP years ago, and it was a vibrating SOB. Not to mention every major part on it is unobtanium.

Sorry, I'm sure it's a very nice plane overall. I'm a fan of the whole Navion line, and wouldn't mind owning one. Any Navion, except the O-340 powered version.
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So you base your total experience on 1 engine, ever think that these might give a good ride for a log time in this aircraft? and there are 2 more to get parts from or change out entirely?

There are enough parts here to salvage and make a bunch of money if some one has the time and effort.
 
Tom-D said:
So you base your total experience on 1 engine, ever think that these might give a good ride for a log time in this aircraft? and there are 2 more to get parts from or change out entirely?

There are enough parts here to salvage and make a bunch of money if some one has the time and effort.
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That's what I was thinking, sounds like a heck of a salvage opportunity.
 
Henning said:
That's what I was thinking, sounds like a heck of a salvage opportunity.
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Here is what you are looking at:

It runs great and looks good. Make an offer.
 

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Tom-D said:
Here is what you are looking at:

It runs great and looks good. Make an offer.
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Hmmmm.,. My BS meter is in the yellow arc.

It's been hangared beside you for many years, he's your customer, you had no clue what it was other than 'twin navion" yet you know that it runs great?
 
bartmc said:
Hmmmm.,. My BS meter is in the yellow arc.

It's been hangared beside you for many years, he's your customer, you had no clue what it was other than 'twin navion" yet you know that it runs great?
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You don't read the whole thread? He has had me do some work on parts he brought me.

the Navion has been maintained by a the premier maintainer at BLI. I have better things to do than watch the airport to see who is doing what.

today I did watch it run, if you noticed the last picture.

If you have no interest in the Navion why try to derail the thread?

OBTW, I have't been at BVS all that long, he has.
 
What a great looking plane. Always thought the Navion was good looking, the twin is twice as much.

But, alas, I add nothing.



_______________

Back to watching Jack Lemmon and Walter Mathau in this thread. Getting some popcorn.
 
JoseCuervo said:
What a great looking plane. Always thought the Navion was good looking, the twin is twice as much.
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Think what the Part 23 re-write will do for maintaining these aircraft.

The Navion Assiocation owns the TCDS for these and could add any engine they like to the TCDS.
 
Tom-D said:
Think what the Part 23 re-write will do for maintaining these aircraft.

The Navion Assiocation owns the TCDS for these and could add any engine they like to the TCDS.
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Unfortunately nothing since it weighs >2700lbs. :(
 
Tom-D said:
Think what the Part 23 re-write will do for maintaining these aircraft.

The Navion Assiocation owns the TCDS for these and could add any engine they like to the TCDS.
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Part 23 rewrite only pertains to single engine aircraft with 4 seats or less.
 
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