Twin Crash

N801BH

N801BH

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This was posted on another thread... I assumed it was a low pass, aileron roll at too low of an altitude as it looks like the plane was way faster the VMC.. I have asked several pilots here and none of them can agree on the deal.. some say left engine failed, some say right, some say stalled because it got too slow......

What say you ?:dunno::dunno:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
 
Flash of white at moment of roll, video quality is poor but it almost looks like something broke causing the roll
 
Looking again looks like a stab half broke off as whe the plane turns inverted I don't see it.

Edit, yes, my answer is failure of the right horizontal stab and resulting roll imbalance
 
I'm in agreement with you, Ben. He looks to have been going too fast for it to be a Vmc issue. I'm thinking intentional aileron roll.

Bob Hoover, he was not. Sad. :(

Duncan's idea is also plausible, the video isn't clear enough for my eyes to see that detail, though.
 
Skylane81E said:
Looking again looks like a stab half broke off as whe the plane turns inverted I don't see it.

Edit, yes, my answer is failure of the right horizontal stab and resulting roll imbalance
Click to expand...

I think at :17 it might have hooked a tree, watch the treetop as the left wing goes over it, really hard to see.
 
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No way it was a Vmc roll. Way too fast, he could have done an accelerated stall, had rudder in to complete his turn and it snap rolled...
 
The rate at which that King Air rolled is too fast for its normal rate IMO. I do see something weird going on with the right stab just before it rolled...
 
There is something going on with the left engine just prior to the roll. Some sort of flash of white and I don't think it's smoke. If the left elevator fell off I can't imagine the right being enough to cause such a roll and over power the ailerons.

If the left engine caged it would have wanted to roll the other way. To be honest, I have no idea what caused this.
 
Sorry but the last thing that would happen if the left wing clipped a tree, is a roll to the right.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'm in agreement with you, Ben. He looks to have been going too fast for it to be a Vmc issue. I'm thinking intentional aileron roll.

Bob Hoover, he was not. Sad. :(

Duncan's idea is also plausible, the video isn't clear enough for my eyes to see that detail, though.
Click to expand...


:confused::confused::confused: Deja vu? Oh well, yeah, way too much energy for a VMC type roll, no need for full power at that point, he was at a healthy speed and altitude even for minimum power on one. There is a large adverse yaw moment at the very onset bringing the bottom of the tail into view first in a flash of white. Stbd prop go into reverse? I also wonder was there something behind that tree that he caught? I couldn't really make out flaps and gear position either.
 
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Offset Beta in the air is the only thing making sense. Looks like one prop went hell for reverse.
 
No way that was an intentional aileron roll attempt. And even if it was, you couldn't get that kind of roll rate in that airplane with aileron alone. It was a snap roll, which is driven by yaw, causing one wing to stall. Goes around quick. Even the dumbest twin jockey on earth who doesn't know how to do an aileron roll properly in a plane like this would not attempt one while in a descending turn, at 50' AGL. Didn't look like the wing clipped anything either...looked like a smooth snap roll. Looks like it's skidding pretty good to the right before it rolls. You can see right yaw followed by a smooth rollover.

Skylane81E said:
Right stab missing as plane rolls inverted
Click to expand...

No, it's there. It's blanked for a moment, but you can see it reappear just before going in.

Threefingeredjack said:
In the video I saw it rolled left. At :19 the right wing and stab are pointing straight up. If it had rolled right you would see the left side.:dunno:
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Plane was flying toward the camera. Plane rolls left from the camera operator's perspective. That's right roll for the airplane.
 
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Look again. It clearly rolled right.
 
Definitely not an intentional roll.

Was there any background info on the incident?

Looks like he was in a pretty good skidding turn base to final. He could have overstressed the aircraft or could have hit something - can't see very well due to the tree in the foreground.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Stop at 16. Then do stop action from there on. The right wing goes from 3 o'clock to 12 o'clock, with the rudder pointing left before it goes behind the tree. Unless I'm looking at a different video.
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Um, that's the left wing. CCW rotation from the camera's perspective. That's right roll from inside the airplane.
 
Amazing how much video is all over youtube the first responders running up to the burning wreckage while somebody is filming is rather amazing....anybody understand Portuguese?
 
RoscoeT said:
Um, that's the left wing. CCW rotation from the camera's perspective. That's right roll from inside the airplane.
Click to expand...

:rofl: All this time I was concentrating on the fricking wing and didn't pay attention to the fact the plane was coming towards me, in a right turn to the runway. This is only the second time in my life I have been wrong. :D Sorry to waste the thread space. :dunno:
 
I don't think beta would do that. Reverse could but there should be a reverse lockout on the King Air.
 
About one to two seconds before the rolls there's a high frequency pitch-change, any correlation (thrust reverse, etc.)?
 
Something broke...what..I have no idea.
 
I mean maybe he got slow enough that he did in fact Vmc roll, and before the roll tried to power up with one engine? I dunno, but the approach looks fast. VMC on the 99 goes to up 130kts with a failed engine unfeathered so that could have had something to do with it.
 
Inverted said:
I mean maybe he got slow enough that he did in fact Vmc roll, and before the roll tried to power up with one engine? I dunno, but the approach looks fast. VMC on the 99 goes to up 130kts with a failed engine unfeathered so that could have had something to do with it.
Click to expand...

If that's what happened it's an epic f- up in energy management considering the approach. The props have a reverse lock out system that keeps them from reversing until what, squat switch? Is it possible that a pilot who believes he has a 'trick' to doing short landings could set up a steep approach and stick the handles in hard reverse counting on the switch to trigger reverse ASAP?
 
Looked to me like he was in a slight right bank, "cheated" with right rudder to line up at the last minute and pulled hard to break his decent...

My snap rolls look just like that but higher and no fireball...+


RIP to those killed.

Chris
 
Hiperbiper said:
Looked to me like he was in a slight right bank, "cheated" with right rudder to line up at the last minute and pulled hard to break his decent...

My snap rolls look just like that but higher and no fireball...+


RIP to those killed.

Chris
Click to expand...
It's just hard to tell with the video. I don't see a dramatic skid, maybe a little, and I certainly don't see anything indicating a real hard pull...Just hard to say.
 
The translation have these two comments with the news video.

Published on Apr 20, 2012 by CAMFWAYNE5
The aircraft had just taken off, and be with a full tank, is suspected of an explosion in the air. There is still no confirmation of casualties.


To my God, explosion in the air? there was a breakdown in one of the engines, and he could not return to the runway and exploded on the ground.
 
jesse said:
It's just hard to tell with the video. I don't see a dramatic skid, maybe a little, and I certainly don't see anything indicating a real hard pull...Just hard to say.
Click to expand...


When the vid starts you see (I believe) the runway he was going for. At around 05 you see the plane slide sideways (right rudder) and the nose rotate up like he was trying to kill his forward motion and arrest his decent. Look at the decent prior to the incident. The nose went quickly from nose down to "level" to seeing the bottom of the plane.

He rolled the same direction he was skidding. The right wingtip was lagging all the time. He did it quickly. And he rotated around his fore/aft axis.

Anyway; for them, the end came quickly...:(

C
 
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