Twin Comanche - right seater

saracelica

saracelica

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saracelica
So my husband picked up a new hobby. Getting the "Multi Engine instrument" on his certificate. He's almost done with the training and proud of his dedication in doing it. Then there is me with a new (6mths) old PP certificate in my wallet.

I presume at some point he'll want to go take the Twin Comanche out on one of our airplane adventures. However since I was in the plane with an instructor only once I was the one who got to have the brakes. :) (That instructor was very trusting I presume!)

Which leads me to my question. Worst case scenerio, husband and I go on a trip and on the way back he falls violently ill. Sure I can probably figure out the airplane (it is only a couple extra knobs and stuff) but it's the landing I'm thinking. I'd hate to get it almost all the way to the ground and then stall it and die trying to save my life?

Recommendations? I believe approach speed in that thing is 120 how do I get it from 100+ to 0 with no brakes? Do I see if his instructor will let me do right seat time? Hope for the best? Not fly in it? I suppose there is some sort of parking brake in it would I be able to reach it from right seat? All I'd care about is "getting it on the ground and if I have to do it sans landing gear I would....just curious on thoughts.
 
Pinch hitter training covering scenarios as you describe?
 
In that highly unlikely scenario, you have a handbrake. On the earliest comanches, there were no toe brakes on either side, just the same handbrake. And if you run off into the grass or some bushes thats the least of your concerns at that point.
 
When I say pinch hitter I just meant not a "full blown" Multi education - just the bare basics of operating the aircraft in an emergency. I did the same thing which is how I got hooked on the SEL.
 
Sara, all that stuff you do in the Cherokee 6 with the motor and the prop and all?

Do it twice.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Pinch hitter training covering scenarios as you describe?
Click to expand...

Try finding someone teaching a Pinch Hitter course these days. Karen has expressed interest in such a thing, and I've looked. Doesn't really exist anywhere but in people's memory.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Sara, all that stuff you do in the Cherokee 6 with the motor and the prop and all?

Do it twice.
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Nope -- just do it once, but grab the two identical side-by-side levers together when you do. Only other thing is remember to put the gear down once you're in the pattern.
 
denverpilot said:
Try finding someone teaching a Pinch Hitter course these days. Karen has expressed interest in such a thing, and I've looked. Doesn't really exist anywhere but in people's memory.
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You just need the right instructor. I'm pretty sure AOPA still has the course knowledge material on their web site.
 
I got my MEL in a Twinkie and was a PA-30/39 examiner, and I don't remember approach speeds anywhere near 120 mph (mph is what the airspeed indicator read back then). Dirty stall speed is 60... x1.3 is 78.

It is reputedly difficult to land, but I never had any problems. Just lucky, I guess.

Bob Gardner
 
I did pinch hitter for SEL with my airplane club.

I'm good with the knobs and whatnot I can "fake it" I'm sure. My real question is how do I drop the speed in a hurry? Do I just go to a big airport with a 10k foot runway and let it bleed off? or go careening into the grass? Would a maneuver like that hurt my license/certificate??
 
How much brake do you need in the Cherokee 6? It purd near coasts to taxi speeds on it's own, right?


Piper PA-32-300 - Performance Data
Gross Weight: 3400 lbs
Empty Weight: 1846 lbs
Stall Speed (dirty): 55 kts
Landing:
Ground Roll 630 ft
Over 50 ft obstacle: 1000 ft


Piper PA-30, B Twin Comanche - Performance Data
Gross Weight: 3600
Empty Weight: 2210 lbs
Stall Speed (dirty): 60 kts
Landing:
Ground Roll 700 ft
50 ft obstacle: 1875 ft

http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/info/airplane413.shtml

Not that different.

After you touch down, slap the old man upside the head and tell him to wake up and step on the brakes.

You could S turn to scrub speed, or turn off into the grass if push came to shove.
 
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saracelica said:
I did pinch hitter for SEL with my airplane club.

I'm good with the knobs and whatnot I can "fake it" I'm sure. My real question is how do I drop the speed in a hurry? Do I just go to a big airport with a 10k foot runway and let it bleed off? or go careening into the grass? Would a maneuver like that hurt my license/certificate??
Click to expand...

Here's a checklist:

Stay above the blue line on the ASI. Always.

Fly normal pattern faster than usual.

Toss out flaps. Note first item. Power as required.

Land.

Close throttles.

Push on brakes.

If you go into the grass, no one will care.

You'll be too busy visiting hubby in ICU to care too.

Figure out flying issues after hubby is well.

If hubby not well, hope he has life insurance without an aviation waiver.
 
denverpilot said:
Here's a checklist:

Stay above the blue line on the ASI. Always.

Fly normal pattern faster than usual.

Toss out flaps. Note first item. Power as required.

Land.

Close throttles.

Push on brakes.

If you go into the grass, no one will care.

You'll be too busy visiting hubby in ICU to care too.

Figure out flying issues after hubby is well.

If hubby not well, hope he has life insurance without an aviation waiver.
Click to expand...
if you stay above blue line you'll be flying till you run out of gas
 
The Twin doesn't have brakes on the passenger side. Hence my main question.

Do I pull the mixture to help stop? I don't think I'd really care if I damage the engine as long as I'm on the ground.
 
If you want to be sure of stopping quick just leave the gear up :)
 
JHW said:
if you stay above blue line you'll be flying till you run out of gas
Click to expand...

LOL, well.. Until landing. See, this is why I let the pros write checklists. :)

As far as there not being any brakes on the passenger side...

 
saracelica said:
The Twin doesn't have brakes on the passenger side. Hence my main question.
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Doesn't it have a center handbrake?

Do I pull the mixture to help stop?
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If there's no handbrake, yes, pull the mixtures together once you're on the ground, but keep steering with your feet until you roll to a stop.

I don't think I'd really care if I damage the engine as long as I'm on the ground.
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You won't hurt the engine doing that unless it's a Turbo Twin Comanche, and even then, it's not that likely you'll do serious damage shutting down without a cool-down of the turbos.
 
saracelica said:
Do I see if his instructor will let me do right seat time?
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I would start with this. Also, remember you don't need to make a perfect landing. It just needs to be survivable. You have a big advantage over spouses who are not pilots at all. I taught a couple pinch hitter students years ago. One in a C-182 and one in a C-210. Neither one was a pilot.
 
Everskyward said:
I would start with this. Also, remember you don't need to make a perfect landing. It just needs to be survivable. You have a big advantage over spouses who are not pilots at all. I taught a couple pinch hitter students years ago. One in a C-182 and one in a C-210. Neither one was a pilot.
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my wife would be better off putting our 9-year-old in the front seat
 
N801BH said:
:rofl::lol::eek:...

I guess that is always an option.:yes:
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she talks a good game. If you ask her if she wants to learn how to fly someday, she'll tell you "Oh I already know how, I just need dad to start the engines for me"
 
Ron Levy said:
Doesn't it have a center handbrake?

If there's no handbrake, yes, pull the mixtures together once you're on the ground, but keep steering with your feet until you roll to a stop.

You won't hurt the engine doing that unless it's a Turbo Twin Comanche, and even then, it's not that likely you'll do serious damage shutting down without a cool-down of the turbos.
Click to expand...

No hand brake on the twin Comanche- throttle quadrant is in that location.
 
Find a long runway and coast to a stop or hit the grass to help slow down in the event that ever happens and there is no had brake. You will figure it out in that situation.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
So where is the parking brake on a Twinkie? I can't remember.
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Right below the pilot side yoke. It's some sort of valve or lock, you push the brakes and lock them with the little handle.

My recommendation for the OP would be to go up for an hour with the instructor and to just learn the basics of flying the twinky. No need to learn anything fancy about engine failures etc., just how to fly and land the thing.
 
weilke said:
My recommendation for the OP would be to go up for an hour with the instructor and to just learn the basics of flying the twinky. No need to learn anything fancy about engine failures etc., just how to fly and land the thing.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I'm hoping to do that but I wanted to have some suggestions from "experts"
 
Landing from the right seat is a challenge in any plane when you have not done it before. It's a piece of cake once you have done it a few times.

Don't give me this "I'm only a PPL single" stuff.
You are a PILOT, period.
You can fly the plane.
If you can fly the plane you can land the plane.
You just need to get some dual for doing it in a twin from the right seat.

Start with having your hubby ride in the left seat in the 172 while you do TO&L from the right.
(assuming that you two can tolerate each other - if not, get someone else to ride shotgun on the left)
Once you feel comfortable flying the Hawk from the right then it is time to get a pinch hitter on landing from the right seat in the Twinkie - your husband's CFI?

As far as the brakes, fergidabout it. It'll be the least of your worries. You can slide over into the grass once you are about half way down the runway.
If you take out a runway light or two, so what?
If that doesn't stop you before the end, then ground loop it when you reach the end (just stand on the left rudder)

As far as the engines, simply pull the mixture once you are rolling on the runway and do not even think about the turbo/engine. It is not YOUR problem in that situation. Money can fix it.
(probably will not need any fixing because you will be back at partial throttle on short final - engine should be just fine)

And once you can land from the right and get the pinch hitter dual in the Twinkie, guess what?

You can fly/land from the right and he can't.

I sense a new multi engine student in the making - maybe even a CFI.
 
Saracelia: with both mills going it is just a single that stalls a bit quicker (less warning) than a single, which you (in the case of the twinkie) are going to "fly on" to the runway.

Have a CFI teach you that a couple of times. That's all you need.
 
Having done it, watched it and taught it, my experience indicates that many students let themselves get psyched about having two motors and:

1. Think that flying them is harder than it is
2. Think that twins go faster and therefore all speeds are higher than singles
3. Think blue line speed is relevant for landings
4. Fail to understand where/when the added complexities other than emergencies really occur

My responses are:

1. If you can get the door closed, the engine started and the pre-flight checklist completed, most of the added difficulty/complexity is handled.
2. Some go a bit faster, but performance of the little ones is very close to that of big singles. Speeds may be a wee-tad faster, but not much. The Seneca that I used for ME training was less capable and flew more like a little plane than the 210 I owned at the time.
3. Blue line is a single engine climb speed. Different speeds should be used for approach and landing. Be sure you understand the differences.
4. Once you're airborne, singles and twins fly much the same. My 250 Comanche and Twinkie felt about the same at low altitude. Landings were similar because the same wing was used for both planes.

The biggest differences are that many of the preflight and pre-takeoff checks require X 2, along with some checks that aren't typically performed (like prop feather test) on singles.

Emergencies and single-engine ops are taught as part of the ME rating, but if the pilot goes cold at the same time an engine goes cold, you can just assume it's not your day.
 
saracelica said:
I did pinch hitter for SEL with my airplane club.

I'm good with the knobs and whatnot I can "fake it" I'm sure. My real question is how do I drop the speed in a hurry? Do I just go to a big airport with a 10k foot runway and let it bleed off? or go careening into the grass? Would a maneuver like that hurt my license/certificate??
Click to expand...

Where does "drop the speed in a hurry" come from? You don't come storming into an airport at cruise speed and suddenly slow down....you begin the slowing process maybe five miles out. When you get a chance, learn "the numbers" for the Twinkie. Experiment: 20" and 2300 rpm gets you what airspeed in level flight? 18" and props forward? If you leave the props alone and reduce manifold pressure by three inches, what rate of descent do you get? What rate of descent do you get when you hang the gear out and make no other changes?

If you are not MEL-rated, careening off into the grass will have no effect on your certificate...you do not have a license.

Bob Gardner
 
When I said "drop the speed in a hurry" I was thinking of the *home* runway where it's only 2000 ft, you pilots that've been flying forever probably feel that is pretty long but seems like it'd go by pretty fast in an emergency.

I like this discussion!
 
bobmrg said:
Where does "drop the speed in a hurry" come from? You don't come storming into an airport at cruise speed and suddenly slow down....you begin the slowing process maybe five miles out.
Click to expand...

I interpreted her question as "how do I slow down from touchdown speed without any brake pedals?" I don't think she was necessarily talking about airspeed on the approach.

If you are not MEL-rated, careening off into the grass will have no effect on your certificate...you do not have a license.
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Aside from the fact that you have bigger issues at the moment than your certificate (surviving comes first!), I'm sure Bob is right. Why would the FAA initiate enforcement action for a poor landing against a non-MEL pilot who managed to save the lives of herself and possibly her pilot in an emergency? I seriously doubt they have any grounds to act on your ASEL cert.
 
and if you had that situation, Saracelica, why woud you go to your horm port of 2000 feet? I'd be making for a place with 4000+ known to the EMS services....and fire trucks.
 
saracelica said:
When I said "drop the speed in a hurry" I was thinking of the *home* runway where it's only 2000 ft, you pilots that've been flying forever probably feel that is pretty long but seems like it'd go by pretty fast in an emergency.

I like this discussion!
Click to expand...

What Bruce said in post 36. Go somewhere with long runways.
 
dukeblue219 said:
Why would the FAA initiate enforcement action for a poor landing against a non-MEL pilot who managed to save the lives of herself and possibly her pilot in an emergency? I seriously doubt they have any grounds to act on your ASEL cert.
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I thought the FAA motto was "We're not happy until you're not happy" :) Just like thinking through issues such as this.

Of course now he decides he wants to get his motorcycle endorsement! :yikes:
 
bbchien said:
and if you had that situation, Saracelica, why would you go to your horm port of 2000 feet? I'd be making for a place with 4000+ known to the EMS services....and fire trucks.
Click to expand...

KTOL is a 11 miles away (15 from Toledo Exec.) and has a 10599 x 150 feet runway. I would assume fire and rescue are on the field - the airport diagram shows a fire station.
 
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