TWA Flight 800

kimberlyanne546

Final Approach
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Messages
7,726
Location
California
Display Name

Display name:
Kimberly
Found more aviation on Netflix streaming:

Series "Best Evidence" (Episode 1):

Investigation Discovery

1996

TWA flight 800 investigation
 
Last edited:
Cool. I have downloaded the entire Mayday (Air Crash Investigation) series from sources that shall remain nameless :wink2: They are very well done and there are 98 episodes. Many of the causes of large aircraft going down are relevant to GA aircraft also, everything from inadequate preflight (Aeroperú Flight 603) to careless maintenance (Alaska Airlines Flight 261).
Those episodes are everywhere on youtube :D. I've watched most of them and there is stuff to be learned from each of them.
 
SNL had the best report on it.

"TWA flight 800 crash has been determined to be caused by frayed wires in the fuel tank. The wires frayed when they were hit by a missile."
 
SNL had the best report on it.

"TWA flight 800 crash has been determined to be caused by frayed wires in the fuel tank. The wires frayed when they were hit by a missile."

Not only that, but it was the magical jihad missile which leaves no evidence of fragments, pitting, or blast.
 
Not only that, but it was the magical jihad missile which leaves no evidence of fragments, pitting, or blast.

No, no, no, no... There was plenty of evidence. They just hid it and did the best job of keeping a secret. Ever. ;-)
 
No, no, no, no... There was plenty of evidence. They just hid it and did the best job of keeping a secret. Ever. ;-)

That's right. An expert on government conspiracies on the red board tells me that this kind of thing can be easily "spoofed." :rofl:
 
For what it's worth, I fly the 747. I don't know a single pilot flying the airplane who believes the official version, and everyone I know, myself included, firmly believes the flight was hit by a MANPAD.

I know an individual who just retired out of the Classic who lost his son and wife in TWA-800. In fact, it's the reason he began flying the 747; he felt it was something he had to do to come to terms with the loss, sort of like getting back on the horse. There's no doubt in his mind either regarding the cause.

We have an applicable operational AD involving the center wing fuel tank with specific requirements about minimum fuel in the tank if the CWT fuel boost override pumps are to be used, and exactly how much fuel we can use, and when. Nobody, whether it's the maintenance staff, flight training department, or crews believes there's an issue with wiring or pumps. That was never the issue.

I've often thought about TWA 800 while climbing out of JFK going north toward the Tracks. Even today if we end up going out close to El Al, someone will comment "uh-oh."

The official song and dance was so full of holes, for anyone that knows the airplane, that it's patently obvious and quite transparent. TWA 800 was shot down. I'm not going to discuss conspiracy theories because it's irrelevant; there's no "conspiracy." Most certainly there was an official story and then there's the truth, but there's a reason behind that. The reason is no longer that significant in light of changing times, and the official report is never going to be altered, but those operating the aircraft with experience in type and who know the circumstances surrounding the event put zero credence in the popular, official account. It's just not true.
 
SNL had the best report on it.

"TWA flight 800 crash has been determined to be caused by frayed wires in the fuel tank. The wires frayed when they were hit by a missile."

For what it's worth, I fly the 747. I don't know a single pilot flying the airplane who believes the official version, and everyone I know, myself included, firmly believes the flight was hit by a MANPAD.

I know an individual who just retired out of the Classic who lost his son and wife in TWA-800. In fact, it's the reason he began flying the 747; he felt it was something he had to do to come to terms with the loss, sort of like getting back on the horse. There's no doubt in his mind either regarding the cause.

We have an applicable operational AD involving the center wing fuel tank with specific requirements about minimum fuel in the tank if the CWT fuel boost override pumps are to be used, and exactly how much fuel we can use, and when. Nobody, whether it's the maintenance staff, flight training department, or crews believes there's an issue with wiring or pumps. That was never the issue.

I've often thought about TWA 800 while climbing out of JFK going north toward the Tracks. Even today if we end up going out close to El Al, someone will comment "uh-oh."

The official song and dance was so full of holes, for anyone that knows the airplane, that it's patently obvious and quite transparent. TWA 800 was shot down. I'm not going to discuss conspiracy theories because it's irrelevant; there's no "conspiracy." Most certainly there was an official story and then there's the truth, but there's a reason behind that. The reason is no longer that significant in light of changing times, and the official report is never going to be altered, but those operating the aircraft with experience in type and who know the circumstances surrounding the event put zero credence in the popular, official account. It's just not true.

That and that.
 
After reading everything that I've could find about flight 800, put me down that it was shot down.
 
I'm not going to discuss conspiracy theories because it's irrelevant; there's no "conspiracy."

How could physical evidence of a missile strike be kept hidden without a conspiracy? :confused:
 
I too believe the flight was shot down. 153 eyewitness reports to support my crazy opinion based on a "conspiracy theory".
 
I think the NTSB just found it easier to take a stance of "we couldn't prove it was a missile even if we wanted to, due to subsequent damage and seawater washing off residue... and besides, it's usually some quirky maintenance thing anyway. So please accept that it was some weird known maintenance item that was already being dealt with successfully throughout the 747 fleet." There is some precedent... the JAL 747 that crashed due to a tiny bracket installed with the wrong shim behind it, or the illegal forklift-assisted procedure that caused an AA DC-10 to lose an engine and pylon right after takeoff. I suppose the FBI, or the White House, or Pentagon could gag the NTSB, but... I'm not so sure they actually needed to.

But it still strikes me as odd that that Washington didn't admit it was most likely a terrorist missile, even though they had at least one "credible" claim of responsibility come in after, and several prior warnings from sources they were monitoring.
Since when has any government been unable to turn a security breach into public-opinion gold? It's all a matter of spin... especially if you're looking for precedent to go to war. This was known long before 2001... Pearl Harbor, the USS Maine, etc.
Maybe they just didn't have a war plan ready yet... :dunno:
 
I'm not going to get into whether it was or wasn't a missile.

But think about it. If it was... And it was covered up. What's the most obvious reason?

Someone would be utterly embarassed/de-throned because of WHO did it.

If there was a cover-up, it wasn't just about that there was a missile. It was about the backlash that'd hit once the investigation "found out" who it was.

So if it was a cover-up, someone already knew who probably did it. It's always been that way. I contend that IF there was a cover-up, it was plenty busy.

Even the fact that most of the 9/11 folks were Saudis and the flights allowed to take Saudi family members home after everyone else was grounded was allowed to be found out by that doofus filmmaker, has always been fascinating... if you think about the bigger picture a bit...

Michael Moore wasn't smart enough to put all those pieces together. "They" made him a rich man. He had one "hard-hitting" documentary under his belt from sheer willpower and stubnornness.

"National Security" throughout history has always really meant, "The rich and ultra-powerful POed someone we thought was not our enemy and now need money and troops to kick them in the shins."

The main exception to that rule are disconnected battles like the Cold War where two countries fight via proxy by arming intermediaries. The game is strange and quite different in that type of battle.

Historically, terrorism is usually a direct result of prior bad behavior by the larger of two combatants unless the larger is softening up the smaller for an attack by breaking their will to fight. Tit for tat. Ask the CIA what they did to make Osama and followers so personally angry. It has slowly been leaked to the press.

Guys like Osama weren't simply swayed by a religious cult. He used it for his purposes, to find dumber people wiling to be Martyrs, actually. And I bet he was played like a fiddle in some ways, too. Take a ruthless dictator power-grubbing personality human and feed them the right information, true or false, they'll be planning death and destruction immediately thereafter.

Not trying to go into the details about Iraq. Using it just as a similar but not the same, example.
'
Now loop back around and apply to TWA 800 if you're trying to prove the missile theory. Whom did we anger that we needed to keep it very quiet about who it was? Find that trail you might prove it. Or more likely you'd end up dead/missing if you found the closet key to the closet the skeleton is hidden in.

They know it's the Information Age and everyone has cameras. It's mildly convenient that TWA 800 went down off-shore.

IF... It was a missile. And IF someone was sending a message... they made sure to do it away from the cameras. And IF that's the case, the message was personal. They knew as soon as they heard the aircraft was down, who sent it, and why.

One sometimes also would have to dig into who was on board. Targets are rarely random.

The only constant is that human nature rarely changes. History is littered with dead people who believed or did not believe the "official" government stories about certain events, depending on what the powers-that-be wanted them to believe or not believe.

Every once in a while a true whistleblower shows up. But they're as rare as Hen's teeth. Everyone's getting paid. Currency/Legal Tender, or to stroke an ego with power.
 
I never believed it because too many people would have known, and people simply suck at keeping secrets.
 
I never believed it because too many people would have known, and people simply suck at keeping secrets.

I find that argument appealing too, but as I sat here reading the thread, I remembered the fact that documents have been found that showed the Air Force was secretly encouraging UFO rumors near Area 51 because they wanted cover for test flights of secret experimental aircraft. A non-trivial number of people must have known about that, but they managed to keep the information out of the public eye for decades, until after it was declassified. :dunno:
 
For what it's worth, I fly the 747. I don't know a single pilot flying the airplane who believes the official version, and everyone I know, myself included, firmly believes the flight was hit by a MANPAD.

The official song and dance was so full of holes, for anyone that knows the airplane, that it's patently obvious and quite transparent. TWA 800 was shot down.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
 
I can't comment on this because my last duty post before retirement was in a DHS intelligence unit, and as part of my security brief-in I was told of the shoot down of TWA 800, the controlled demolition of the WTC and then asked to swear on a Bible to keep my mouth shut. A little grey alien from Area 51 swore me in, Elvis held the Bible. :D
 
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Agreed.
Conspiracy theoretists always conviniently disregard the aspect of having to explain why one/more people would keep such a bombshell info to themselves forever. Human nature doesn't work that way.
 
Last edited:
Those of you who believe the conspiracy theories are giving whoever is allegedly covering this up way too much credit. The sheer number of people who would have to be involved to hide this is too great. There is absolutely no way this could be kept secret.

As for those of you who have read the report and dispute it, I would like you to address specific areas in that report that you believe are incorrect and let's debate those. To simply state "it was wrong" is meaningless. You have to prove your statements. And to preempt those who may say that the NTSB did not prove their statements, again, point me to a specific area that you disagree with (page and paragraph in the report) and let's debate the specifics. I am sure there are some smart people here who could weigh in.

Threefingeredjack: You nailed it. :D

And the 747 Captain, with all due respect you're a bus driver and are not automatically qualified to have the definitive opinion on somebody else's bus and what happened with it.
 
Last edited:
I too believe the flight was shot down. 153 eyewitness reports to support my crazy opinion based on a "conspiracy theory".
Unfortunately, the physical evidence of the recovered components makes it absolutely clear to anyone who's ever examined aircraft hit by missiles (and I did that for 12 years) that no external impact occurred. Of course, I suppose the conspirators could have found and removed every single piece of the accident aircraft from the ocean floor and disposed of them, then found a 747 somewhere, blown it up in secret from the inside, and deposited those pieces in the same place without anyone every catching them and nobody involved ever spilling the beans. I just don't think it particularly likely.

But then again, maybe I was part of the conspiracy and I'm just trying to continue to fool you all. OTOH, no ground-launched MANPAD could have hit that plane at that speed and altiude. It's just not within those systems' envelope.

But then again, maybe it was carried aloft by terrorists in a stealth-modified Piper Cub and launched from there...;)

But then again...

:sigh:

Y'all have fun.
 
As for those of you who have read the report and dispute it, I would like you to address specific areas in that report that you believe are incorrect and let's debate those. To simply state "it was wrong" is meaningless. You have to prove your statements. And to preempt those who may say that the NTSB did not prove their statements, again, point me to a specific area that you disagree with (page and paragraph in the report) and let's debate the specifics. I am sure there are some smart people here who could weigh in.

Amen to that.
 
Unfortunately, the physical evidence of the recovered components makes it absolutely clear to anyone who's ever examined aircraft hit by missiles (and I did that for 12 years) that no external impact occurred. Of course, I suppose the conspirators could have found and removed every single piece of the accident aircraft from the ocean floor and disposed of them, then found a 747 somewhere, blown it up in secret from the inside, and deposited those pieces in the same place without anyone every catching them and nobody involved ever spilling the beans. I just don't think it particularly likely.

I thought I remembered that there was specific evidence that was inconsistent with the missile theory. Thanks for the reminder as to what it was.
 
For what it's worth, I fly the 747. I don't know a single pilot flying the airplane who believes the official version, and everyone I know, myself included, firmly believes the flight was hit by a MANPAD.

I know an individual who just retired out of the Classic who lost his son and wife in TWA-800. In fact, it's the reason he began flying the 747; he felt it was something he had to do to come to terms with the loss, sort of like getting back on the horse. There's no doubt in his mind either regarding the cause.

We have an applicable operational AD involving the center wing fuel tank with specific requirements about minimum fuel in the tank if the CWT fuel boost override pumps are to be used, and exactly how much fuel we can use, and when. Nobody, whether it's the maintenance staff, flight training department, or crews believes there's an issue with wiring or pumps. That was never the issue.

I've often thought about TWA 800 while climbing out of JFK going north toward the Tracks. Even today if we end up going out close to El Al, someone will comment "uh-oh."

The official song and dance was so full of holes, for anyone that knows the airplane, that it's patently obvious and quite transparent. TWA 800 was shot down. I'm not going to discuss conspiracy theories because it's irrelevant; there's no "conspiracy." Most certainly there was an official story and then there's the truth, but there's a reason behind that. The reason is no longer that significant in light of changing times, and the official report is never going to be altered, but those operating the aircraft with experience in type and who know the circumstances surrounding the event put zero credence in the popular, official account. It's just not true.
Given the number of documented center wing fuel tank explosions in various Boeing aircraft, including cases where wiring was the spark source, your statements are disingenuous. The fact that the aircraft survivability folks at China Lake and Wright-Patt were able to duplicate both the conditions and the results is even more compelling. Further, the fact that no MANPAD in the world could hit that plane where it was makes any such assertion ludicrous.

The truth is such explosions had been happening in similar Boeing designs for years, but due to various parameters being a bit off optimal, the results had not been as catastrophic (although deaths had occurred, notably in a maintenance-related B-52 accident on the ground at IIRC McConnell AFB in Wichta). It was only a matter of time before all the stars came into alignment and a catastrophic in-flight event occurred. You roll the dice long enough, and eventually you hit snake-eyes.

The only way to guarantee not losing at this game is not to roll the dice at all, and that's the recommendation we in the combat aircraft survivability business made to the commercial aviation industry -- inert or foam the tanks, because sometimes there will be an explosive mixture, and sometimes a spark will occur, and eventually they'll both happen at once as they did in TW800, among other incidents both in the US and internationally, like the 737 that blew up at the gate in Manila a few years before TW800, and which was conclusively shown to have been sparked by frayed wiring in the center wing fuel tank.

Of course, the airlines refused to accept the associated cost and weight penalties of fuel tank ullage explosion protection systems, so the crap game continues. At least they now know what conditions are most conducive to explosivity, and they have put in place procedures to minimize the risk of those conditions occurring, but all they did was reduce the odds, not eliminate the problem.
 
Last edited:
Unfortunately, the physical evidence of the recovered components makes it absolutely clear to anyone who's ever examined aircraft hit by missiles (and I did that for 12 years) that no external impact occurred. Of course, I suppose the conspirators could have found and removed every single piece of the accident aircraft from the ocean floor and disposed of them, then found a 747 somewhere, blown it up in secret from the inside, and deposited those pieces in the same place without anyone every catching them and nobody involved ever spilling the beans. I just don't think it particularly likely.

But then again, maybe I was part of the conspiracy and I'm just trying to continue to fool you all. OTOH, no ground-launched MANPAD could have hit that plane at that speed and altiude. It's just not within those systems' envelope.

But then again, maybe it was carried aloft by terrorists in a stealth-modified Piper Cub and launched from there...;)

But then again...

:sigh:

Y'all have fun.
Then what was that fireball that was screaming up towards an airplane that so many people saw? Same with the explosive residue that some of the cloth from the seats tested positive for...I'm not 100% sold on anything, but there is alot of evidence that goes against the official report and many unanswered questions.
 
a spark in a fuel tank full of fuel won't ignite. Especially Jet-A. An empty tank will as the fumes may well light. What would the state of the tank be on takeoff and climb for a trip across the Atlantic?
 
a spark in a fuel tank full of fuel won't ignite. Especially Jet-A. An empty tank will as the fumes may well light. What would the state of the tank be on takeoff and climb for a trip across the Atlantic?
I heard somewhere that it was basically empty.
 
Unfortunately, the physical evidence of the recovered components makes it absolutely clear to anyone who's ever examined aircraft hit by missiles (and I did that for 12 years) that no external impact occurred. Of course, I suppose the conspirators could have found and removed every single piece of the accident aircraft from the ocean floor and disposed of them, then found a 747 somewhere, blown it up in secret from the inside, and deposited those pieces in the same place without anyone every catching them and nobody involved ever spilling the beans. I just don't think it particularly likely.

But then again, maybe I was part of the conspiracy and I'm just trying to continue to fool you all. OTOH, no ground-launched MANPAD could have hit that plane at that speed and altiude. It's just not within those systems' envelope.

But then again, maybe it was carried aloft by terrorists in a stealth-modified Piper Cub and launched from there...;)

But then again...

:sigh:

Y'all have fun.

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
 
Then what was that fireball that was screaming up towards an airplane that so many people saw? Same with the explosive residue that some of the cloth from the seats tested positive for...I'm not 100% sold on anything, but there is alot of evidence that goes against the official report and many unanswered questions.
So called witnesses are often horribly unreliable, it has been known from the past that even large number of people could be affected by visual hoaxes, over-interpretation, ability to see things they want to see, etc.
I wonder if you take all 747s still flying and perform tests on explosive residues how many would test positive.
 
Last edited:
Then what was that fireball that was screaming up towards an airplane that so many people saw? Same with the explosive residue that some of the cloth from the seats tested positive for...I'm not 100% sold on anything, but there is alot of evidence that goes against the official report and many unanswered questions.
Eyewitness reports are the least reliable evidence we have. And the sort of MANPAD a terrorist group of that era would have had doesn't look like a "fireball," it looks like a corkscrewing smoke trail. Also, those eyewitnesses were so contaminated by the time they were questioned by people who knew the right questions to ask that their credibility stinks -- another black mark for the FBI's insistence on keeping the "witnesses" away from the NTSB and other aircraft experts because it was a "criminal investigation."

As for the alleged "explosive residue" from the seats, there wouldn't be any if a MANPAD had hit the fuel tank, and there was adequate alternate explanation of substance found. The damage is just totally inconsistent with a missile hit, but completely consistent with an internally-sparked ullage explosion.

Of course, maybe I'm part of the conspiracy and blowing smoke at you, but I really did spend many years on fuel tank ullage explosion prediction and prevention. Dig into the JTCG/AS and SUVIAC libraries and, if you have the access, you can find my work. I presented at both the FAA/SAE Transport Fuel Flammability Conference in 1997 and the DoD-sponsored transport aircraft survivability conference about the same time.
 
Last edited:
I heard somewhere that it was basically empty.
That's correct -- this was not a max range run, and the airlines don't like hauling weight they don't have to. And, since the a/c packs are right under it, and had been running on the ground, the fuel/air mix was heated just right to go "bang."
 
Well that explains why the exploding missile ignited it!
Actually, as Andy Pascal demonstrated, a missile impact would not have created the ullage explosion which broke up the aircraft. A missile impact would have created such a large hole in the tank that the overpressure would have vented through the hole and would not have been enough to rupture the structure. Also, MANPADs are IR seekers, and it would not have hit the fuselage tank anyway -- it would have hit the engine. Of course, high velocity fragments from the exploding warhead might have impacted the tank and created the necessary spark to initiate the explosion, but then there would certainly be no "explosive residue" in the cabin, and there would have been characteristic fragment penetration wounds in the skin of the aircraft -- and there were none.
 
So called witnesses are often horribly unreliable, it has been known from the past that even large number of people could be affected by visual hoaxes, over-interpretation, ability to see things they want to see, etc.
I wonder if you take all 747s still flying and perform tests on explosive residues how many would test positive.
You mean like testing dollar bills for cocaine residue?
 
So called witnesses are often horribly unreliable, it has been known from the past that even large number of people could be affected by visual hoaxes, over-interpretation, ability to see things they want to see, etc.
I wonder if you take all 747s still flying and perform tests on explosive residues how many would test positive.

Probably a fair number from farmers (fertilizers), and users of firearms (explosive residue from firing the weapon).

A farmer was stopped at the TSA just a couple of days ago because of fertilizer residue giving a false positive as explosives.

http://www.nbc11news.com/news/headl..._airport_147313775.html?storySection=comments
 
Last edited:
To me the only mystery and question mark about TWA 800 is inability of NTSB to replicate the explosion of the tank on the ground and they apparently tried very hard.
 
To me the only mystery and question mark about TWA 800 is inability of NTSB to replicate the explosion of the tank on the ground and they apparently tried very hard.
I saw some pretty spectacular video of such explosions at the Transport Aircraft Survivability Symposium in St Louis in 1993 -- three years before TW800 happened. Our interest there was military transports and combat damage, but the ullange explosion prediction work was directly applicable to the TW800 investigation, and many of the people who presented there were consulted by NTSB in that later investigation. I don't recall who did those vidos at TASS, but I've seen plenty of video of ullage explosions involving all sorts of aircraft.

And, as I said above, virtually the same thing happened to a 737 at the gate in Manila in 1990 (although on that one the ignition source was identified -- chafed wiring) six years before TW800. There was a wiring inspection AD as a result, but nobody did anything about the underlying problem of allowing an explosive mixture to exist without protection. As I said before, they just figured they could prevent any ignition source from arising and thus not have to worry about explosivity -- and they were wrong.

It's a real problem, and remains so today. Keep rolling the dice, and eventually they'll roll snake-eyes again.
 
Last edited:
The NTSB facility where TWA 800 is reassembled is just up the street from me. It's a pretty compelling wreck to walk through. Frankly, I'm not in with the conspiracy theorists, in the several hours I spent with the NTSB guys I am convinced of their analysis.

There are a number of problems with the missile theory. Part of it was what Ron says, there's no sign of an such an impact. A common thread in those who believe they saw a missile said they looked up when they heard a noise. Now figuring the speed of sound, what they saw when they looked up could not have been the event that made the noise. The sound was, in fact, the original explosion. The things they observed subsequently were after the aircraft broke apart.

There were quite a number of researchers who went out specifically to prove the theory and they failed.

The alleged finding of explosive residue was indeed tracked "by seat number" to an earlier practice plant and search exercise held on that airframe.

What they do have is quite firm proof that something blew up in the center tank and you can see the way the damage propagates from there. Subsequent recreations of the conditions make the alleged situation (near empty center tank, heat from prolonged operation of air conditioner packs on the ramp on a delayed hot day departure, detection of other arcing in similar wire bundles)...

It was quite a tour.
 
Back
Top