Turbo vs non-turbo Piper Arrow

[Skylane81E]

I view a turbo about the same way I view a twin, they exist for a reason, but unless you need what they are providing its money I would rather spend elsewhere

 

[Sac Arrow]

I remember you telling me about that. Any idea what the exhaust components cost?

No clue, I've never had to replace them.

5 minute? So dramatic. Was the mechanic Cuban by any chance?

Nope, pasty white old guy. But a turbo failure doesn't necessarily mean engine failure, you're just going normally aspirated - obviously the higher you are the more of a problem it is, you just have to lean the engine accordingly. But you won't have full takeoff power though, the TSIO 360 is boosted to 41 inches to develop full power. Could be an issue if you're high and in terrain.

 

[Alexb2000]

Huh... Those look pretty cool. How does it work in terms of routing the oxygen tube? (O2 in the Mooney is above your head in the center of the plane). Is it a permanent mod to the headset?

They work with old and new Bose. You have to trim about a 1/16" from one of the plastic pieces to clear the sheet metal bracket that holds the boom. It gets sandwiched in there and screwed down with the factory screws. So not a permanent mod.

The O2 tube comes off the boom at the ear piece. In my bird it goes down across my lap and up to the overhead console.

Passengers like it because nothing touches you and it's just like a second mike. Nothing in your nose or against your face. Female passengers seem to really worry about landing with a mask outline. I still check them with an oximeter, but so far no problems.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a turbo. I've had the Ovation up to 16K several times, and when there's weather I wish I had better climb performance in the mid-teens. I can average better than 1000fpm to 10K but up at 16K I'm at 400fpm or less. And for the longer trips that I do, and topping weather, the turbo would be great. However, there's still no point to it on short trips. Even with a turbo on a long-body Mooney it's going to take you 8nm per 1000 feet to climb and descend. Going to 20,000 feet where the turbo will really shine will take 160nm just for the climb and descent (in fact, likely more). Just not worth it for a 200nm trip where you'll be spending only 10 minutes in cruise if you did that.

Again, though, you'd better be going somewhere.

And on the headwind days...

The beauty of a turbo vs. say a turbine is that you don't have to climb, but you can anytime you want.

Definitely... But in the Ovation I can climb to 16K and cross Lake Michigan up north within glide range of shore at all times without a turbo too. (Ahhh, excess horsepower. )

Believe me, I lust after turbos - But for many pilots, they don't make sense. If frequent long-distance travel is your mission, then they do. I'm kind of in the middle - I do about 5-10 long trips per year. I must admit, a turbo would have been really nice on a couple of them in the past year, but not having it didn't keep me from completing the mission either.

In some ways, the birds with lots of extra horsepower instead of a turbo are better - You get to go pretty fast on *all* your trips, still maintain a good time-to-climb up to 15K or so, and don't have to maintain a turbo. It's the really long-distance stuff where the turbo really shines.

So... In all, Alex, I agree with you on why turbos are good - I just think that a lot of newer pilots don't recognize their limitations.

I'll probably further my rep as an elitist a-hole, but IMO every piston used for travel should have ~300HP AND a turbo. I wish they made engines with more. Performance can increase safety in many scenarios IMO.

Some of this argument is relative. People will argue to the death that you don't "need" a turbo unless you live in Leadville and then "invest" in a $100K panel for an old 182.

BTW an Ovation is one of the best performing NA singles so it does blur the line a little to begin with.

 

[Skylane81E]

I'm not going to tag you as elitist, a true long haul traveling single to me is a 210, Bonanza or mooney, a mooney can get away with a bit less engine because there is less plane to drag around. It is why I have a 182, fits nicely between the real traveling airplanes and the Sunday flyers

 

[flyingcheesehead]

They work with old and new Bose. You have to trim about a 1/16" from one of the plastic pieces to clear the sheet metal bracket that holds the boom. It gets sandwiched in there and screwed down with the factory screws. So not a permanent mod.

The O2 tube comes off the boom at the ear piece. In my bird it goes down across my lap and up to the overhead console.

Passengers like it because nothing touches you and it's just like a second mike. Nothing in your nose or against your face. Female passengers seem to really worry about landing with a mask outline. I still check them with an oximeter, but so far no problems.

Sounds pretty nice. Are there just a couple of strategically-placed holes on the boom then? Do you have to have a higher flow of oxygen due to some of it potentially escaping? Obviously no oxymizer-type solution here.

How much do you pay for an O2 fill? I've had the Mooney for a year now. It's got a big Kevlar tank in it now, but I've only gone from about 1800 to 1100 PSI with the Oxysaver cannulas. Of course, if I had a turbo I'd go high a lot more often.

The beauty of a turbo vs. say a turbine is that you don't have to climb, but you can anytime you want.

True, but then you don't get the performance gains of a turbo either.

I'll probably further my rep as an elitist a-hole, but IMO every piston used for travel should have ~300HP AND a turbo. I wish they made engines with more. Performance can increase safety in many scenarios IMO.

Depends on the kind of travel. I've flown a fixed-gear 182 for 400+ hours from Wisconsin to the East, West, and Gulf coasts. I borrowed a portable O2 system for one trip, and flew one leg on that trip at 14,500 and one at 17,500, other than that I stayed in the non-oxygen altitudes. Never really missed having a turbo.

Now that I'm flying the Ovation, I've wanted a turbo a couple of times. I don't know if having a bigger/higher/faster kind of airplane has changed how I travel via GA (I don't think so), or if I have a bit more get-there-itis thanks to the fiancée (she certainly doesn't actively pressure me), or what... And I don't think there are any trips I've done in the Mooney that I wouldn't have done in a club plane (DA40/182). Maybe the extra performance has simply changed my thinking so that I tend to fly over the top of layers more and I end up needing to fly ever higher to stay out of the potentially-icy tops.

You certainly don't need 300hp or a turbo to travel - For example, an R182 is an excellent traveling machine - But I think that we all fall victim to the notion that we don't want less than what we have, and maybe we want *just one more* bit of capability - I know I look with envy at the Ovation on my field that has FIKI and G1000.

BTW an Ovation is one of the best performing NA singles so it does blur the line a little to begin with.

Very true. That's probably another reason why I say a turbo *isn't* needed in most cases - Plus, while I do a fair bit of long cross-country flying, I also do a lot of shorter trips - KMWC to 06C, KSBM, 3D2 etc. for dinner, KMSN for flying club board meetings, C29 to visit with my parents - All of these are under an hour in the Ovation, most of them more like 20 minutes, so a turbo is worthless for these trips, and I probably do 3-4 of these for every long trip.

 

[Alexb2000]

I'm not going to tag you as elitist, a true long haul traveling single to me is a 210, Bonanza or mooney, a mooney can get away with a bit less engine because there is less plane to drag around. It is why I have a 182, fits nicely between the real traveling airplanes and the Sunday flyers

I followed a fuel injected 550 powered 182 out of Taos the other day. Very impressive aircraft. Someone with that setup wouldn't be far behind your examples. I don't know what that conversion would cost, but I was impressed with the speed and rate of climb.

Taos is at 7,000' also.

Thought I'd mention it in case you win the lottery.

 

[CT Arrow]

I've been looking at listings online for a Piper Arrow III or IV and I'm torn between getting a regular to turbocharged version. It seems like there are a lot more turbocharged Arrows for sale vs the regular. I know that the turbo engines would be more expensive to maintain but that's pretty nonspecific. How do the turbos compare to the regular engines in their ability to make TBO and maintenance costs? A lot of the listing online are aircraft that have Merlyn wastegates or intercoolers or both installed. How much would accessories like those improve engine temperatures and reliability?

Depends on your mission and budget. I have a NA Arrow IV, nicely equipped and meets my missions of 3-4 hour trips. Anything longer is a Commercial ride unless I have time to spare. Speeds are around 136 Kts, 8-8.5 GPH, LOP

I have flown the III and IV. Both are similar and the III would be better if you are dealing with shorter runways. My observations:

The IV will use more runway length.
The IV feels a bit more stable then the III.
The IV needs at least 80 kTS over the tail on final or handling gets mushy.
You need to fly both the III and IV and decide.

Finally, there are alot of IV's out there and they are priced way less then a III.

Regarding turbo's, I'll leave that discussion for those that fly or have flown behind turbos.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I would rather run a 20 kilo race than get in an un-air conditioned airplane on a 130 d F tarmac, ditto flying 20,000' unpressurized.

I go to the lake and sail when the tarmac is that hot.

But I agree flying between 10-20k is open range with no traffic to speak of, even at 11-14k you see little or no traffic.

I'm not real surprised that find myself in disagreement with most.

I think of a turbo as an option on many airframes that cost a little more when new ~5-7%, a little in maintenance, and maybe 30 lbs useful. For that price it effectively doubles the flight envelope. Who wouldn't want that?

I use the Rocket Engineering oxygen boom's. passengers love them as do I. Makes O2 a non-issue.

Leave somewhere like North Las Vegas on a summer afternoon with a ramp temp of about 130. Push all the knobs forward climb at 8-900 FPM to 17k not touching the engine. Cruise home in smooth cold air. What could be easier?

Top a winter storm system full of misery at 20k and ride in perfect conditions on top, it never gets old.

10-20k is no man's land and a great way to avoid a lot of traffic and unfavorable routings.

Any flying in the summer southwest thermals and I want to be at 16 minimum.

On the tail wind days climb up and get a real push (often 30-50 knots).

Climb through weather with 100% of rated power. This can mean a lot at certain times.

Climb high and increase glide range, 20k over a swamp, cold water, etc. is a lot more comfortable than 2k.

Mountains of course.

The real issue is many pilots have a mental service ceiling of 10k. In that case, I agree a turbo offers nothing.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I view a turbo about the same way I view a twin, they exist for a reason, but unless you need what they are providing its money I would rather spend elsewhere

Or have a bit more money to burn while you are trying to look cool.

I agree. It is fun to go where others cannot. It is fun to have one on the ramp at Comanche fly ins (only 29 out of 5500 ever made Turbos). It is like owning a 72 GTO (which I am also restoring). Not as practical as my Toyota Echo.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Depends on your mission and budget. I have a NA Arrow IV, nicely equipped and meets my missions of 3-4 hour trips. Anything longer is a Commercial ride unless I have time to spare.

So you're going about 540nm in your 4 hours... What if you could go 680nm in that same amount of time? To me, anything that will help eliminate being self-loading cargo and TSA rape victim is a good thing!

I would rather run a 20 kilo race than get in an un-air conditioned airplane on a 130 d F tarmac, ditto flying 20,000' unpressurized.

I find that sucking on O2 isn't bad at all - It's less of a pain than I always envisioned. I think the biggest pain is having a portable tank floating around the cabin, so now that I've got it built in, I go up to those altitudes much more frequently. It's still gotta be a pretty long trip to be worthwhile, though, and if the air is smooth and cool and clear above lower, there's not much reason for me to climb above 12K or so.

Oh, and if it's 130ºF on the ramp, I'd want to be way up at 20K! Gotta get up out of the heat and bumps!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It is fun to have one on the ramp at Comanche fly ins (only 29 out of 5500 ever made Turbos).

Wow, really? I didn't realize the Turbo Comanches were so rare.

Of course, I think I've only seen one in person...

 

[CaptLabrador]

Maybe its just my experience with what are probably crooked beat up flight school arrows...but why an arrow when maybe there is a 206 or 210 out there. I cannot stand flying the PA28R-200. Feels underpowered, heavy, ovens on hot days and just doesnt do anything for me?

Just my two cents, my experiences in them havn't been great.

Okay, go figure since I wrote this I flew in another arrow today. well I am eating my words because it was a wonderful ride. I guess the previous ones were just crooked...well one I know because the strut went through the wing but hey. This Arrow has given me a little bit of faith in Piper products now. cruised at a solid 135 kts and felt like it actually wanted to fly.

 

[CT Arrow]

To me, anything that will help eliminate being self-loading cargo and TSA rape victim is a good thing!

I don't really share your point of view. I travel commercial extensively and while TSA has it's issue, it rarely impacts me. Knowing "how" to travel is the key and having airline status perks helps ease the pain; expedited TSA services, priority boarding,,,. The experience is what you make out of it and how you handle it.

 

[Alexb2000]

Sounds pretty nice. Are there just a couple of strategically-placed holes on the boom then? Do you have to have a higher flow of oxygen due to some of it potentially escaping? Obviously no oxymizer-type solution here.

How much do you pay for an O2 fill? I've had the Mooney for a year now. It's got a big Kevlar tank in it now, but I've only gone from about 1800 to 1100 PSI with the Oxysaver cannulas. Of course, if I had a turbo I'd go high a lot more often.

Look at them on the Rocket Engineering site. They are really well made and yes the O2 comes out of a couple of holes designed to blow toward your nostrils. Surprisingly, you really don't have a higher flow than a canula. You're right no oxymizer is possible.

I pay $80 at the dealer, which is about normal. Sometimes I can find it as cheap as $45. Sometimes it's more. I go through about 6 big tanks a year.

 

[wsuffa]

I don't really share your point of view. I travel commercial extensively and while TSA has it's issue, it rarely impacts me. Knowing "how" to travel is the key and having airline status perks helps ease the pain; expedited TSA services, priority boarding,,,. The experience is what you make out of it and how you handle it.

And I'd be more in Kent's camp.

Granted that PreCheck has made things a LOT better at terminals where it exists (and in particular the new ability to use pre on international itineraries), I have a lot of issues with TSA, especially when carrying expensive camera gear or pilot gear. With pre-check it's generally a non-issue (though international travel was, until recently, a problem). Last trip through IAD, the precheck line was 60 deep and took nearly as long as the posted time for the regular lines downstairs.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I don't really share your point of view. I travel commercial extensively and while TSA has it's issue, it rarely impacts me. Knowing "how" to travel is the key and having airline status perks helps ease the pain; expedited TSA services, priority boarding,,,. The experience is what you make out of it and how you handle it.

BS you only minimize the pain sometimes. If you travel much you are getting beat like a New Orleans whore and probably in denial that bubba isn't gonna beat you no more for no good reason.

but of course there is tomorrow.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Okay, go figure since I wrote this I flew in another arrow today. well I am eating my words because it was a wonderful ride. I guess the previous ones were just crooked...well one I know because the strut went through the wing but hey. This Arrow has given me a little bit of faith in Piper products now. cruised at a solid 135 kts and felt like it actually wanted to fly.

It also depends which model of Arrow you're flying. I've flown all four.

The I is somehow a real dog with just 20 less horsepower - I always felt like the climb rate and speed were uncomfortably low until I got the gear up, and even then it was fairly anemic. The I is essentially an Archer with fuel injection, C/S prop, and retracts so it's somewhat heavier and is going to do worse than the Archer at least until the gear is up, and then it won't do much better.

The II I flew was better - It was an old factory demonstrator for King Radios and was well-equipped and well-rigged. I'd be happy with it. I've also flown some III's and I have more time in the III than any of the others and IMO the III is the best of the bunch - Straight tail, tapered wing, 200hp. 135 knots is about right. It's not going to win any contests, but it's a solid plane that has decent performance.

The IV, I'm not a big fan of. Sloppy control feel on takeoff and landing (no prop wash), extra mx expense and harder to preflight the T-tail, it just gave up a lot of the good things about the III for a few extra knots of speed and a "big-plane" look that really kinda looks silly on a plane of its size. I'd take a IV over a I, all else being equal, but not by much.

And, of course, as with any type, some examples are better than others.

 

[CaptLabrador]

And, of course, as with any type, some examples are better than others.

This one is a III and remarkably different feeling. The others Ive flown were I's 180 hp, and crooked...very poor examples of aircraft.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I don't really share your point of view. I travel commercial extensively and while TSA has it's issue, it rarely impacts me. Knowing "how" to travel is the key and having airline status perks helps ease the pain; expedited TSA services, priority boarding,,,. The experience is what you make out of it and how you handle it.

For those of us who don't travel (much) for a living and don't have expedited TSA services, priority boarding, or airline perks... It's a pain in the ass. Luckily I've been able to do all of my work travel via GA, and the type of traveling I do is where GA shines - Non-hub to non-hub airport/areas, mid-range distance (about 500nm), with a coworker. It's way faster (2.5-3 hrs) than either driving (12 hrs) or the airlines (~8-10 hrs) and it's actually cheaper than the airlines as well!

For vacation travel... Well, if I go to Hawaii or Europe or somewhere else that'd be incredibly difficult and expensive via GA it's worth subjecting myself to the hassle of airline travel (tho if I had the money for it, I'd totally charter a G-V instead). Within North America, airline travel really isn't worth it to me. In the Mooney, I can get pretty much anywhere in the ConUS east of the Rockies as fast or faster than the airlines with better comfort, better view, better customer service at both ends, better pretty much everything. And if I'm supposed to be having fun, airline travel sure ain't it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

This one is a III and remarkably different feeling. The others Ive flown were I's 180 hp, and crooked...very poor examples of aircraft.

The I's are dogs even when they aren't crooked. The difference between the I and the III, as you noticed, is remarkable.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I pay $80 at the dealer, which is about normal. Sometimes I can find it as cheap as $45. Sometimes it's more. I go through about 6 big tanks a year.

How many hours do you fly in a year, and how many of those are you breathing O2? What altitudes do you normally fly at?

6 big tanks a year is quite a bit...

I don't know how much an O2 fill is at my home FBO yet. They simply have a 4-tank rig on a trailer. I have gotten a portable tank filled at an FBO for about $35 before tho.

 

[CT Arrow]

BS you only minimize the pain sometimes. If you travel much you are getting beat like a New Orleans whore and probably in denial that bubba isn't gonna beat you no more for no good reason.

but of course there is tomorrow.

And you are probably one of the shining examples of TSA headaches....

 

[CT Arrow]

For those of us who don't travel (much) for a living and don't have expedited TSA services, priority boarding, or airline perks... It's a pain in the ass. Luckily I've been able to do all of my work travel via GA, and the type of traveling I do is where GA shines - Non-hub to non-hub airport/areas, mid-range distance (about 500nm), with a coworker. It's way faster (2.5-3 hrs) than either driving (12 hrs) or the airlines (~8-10 hrs) and it's actually cheaper than the airlines as well!

For vacation travel... Well, if I go to Hawaii or Europe or somewhere else that'd be incredibly difficult and expensive via GA it's worth subjecting myself to the hassle of airline travel (tho if I had the money for it, I'd totally charter a G-V instead). Within North America, airline travel really isn't worth it to me. In the Mooney, I can get pretty much anywhere in the ConUS east of the Rockies as fast or faster than the airlines with better comfort, better view, better customer service at both ends, better pretty much everything. And if I'm supposed to be having fun, airline travel sure ain't it.

I agree traveling commercial sucks but I can't change the system nor do I have on-demand air charter at my beck and call. I learned over the years to use what is already in place to make my traveling easier and less hassle free.

 

[Alexb2000]

How many hours do you fly in a year, and how many of those are you breathing O2? What altitudes do you normally fly at?

6 big tanks a year is quite a bit...

I don't know how much an O2 fill is at my home FBO yet. They simply have a 4-tank rig on a trailer. I have gotten a portable tank filled at an FBO for about $35 before tho.

Around 250 hours a year. I fly 10-20K unless winds say otherwise loud enough, so quite a bit of o2 use.

One thing to keep in mind about my numbers, I refill at 1/3 to 1/2 a tank. I have a friend who almost died in icing because he was out of O2 and couldn't climb above it. Soooo.. I fill it early and often. If I go back to a private hangar I'm going to build an O2 rig like this so I don't have to ever worry about running low:

http://www.csobeech.com/Oxygen-Fill-System.html

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I agree traveling commercial sucks but I can't change the system nor do I have on-demand air charter at my beck and call.

But you are happy to pimp for the TSA. WFT.

I learned over the years to use what is already in place to make my traveling easier and less hassle free.

And you suppose you are the only one around here to do that? And you wonder why you get nailed for saying such stupid things.

 

[CT Arrow]

But you are happy to pimp for the TSA. WFT.



And you suppose you are the only one around here to do that? And you wonder why you get nailed for saying such stupid things.

Tony, I real feel sorry for you. It must be difficult to tye your shoes in the morning.

You have an issue with me, here is my email: ctarrow@gmail.com.
Take it off-line....

 

[CaptLabrador]

If you do get an arrow just dont do this

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Not you personally. How could I have a problem with anyone smart enough to own an Arrow let a lone any Pilot?

I have a problem with losing our rights, tsa, fusion centers, Russia like requirements to document our travels with ID or papers which remind me of WWII movies in Germany nor do I appreciate the TSA apologists.

I do not travel Comm Air anymore and I feel sorry for all those who must do it for their jobs.

The fact that you can minimize their intrusions in now way allows that it is acceptable.

 

[weilke]

I have a problem with losing our rights, tsa, fusion centers, Russia like requirements to document our travels with ID or papers which remind me of WWII movies in Germany nor do I appreciate the TSA apologists.

I do not travel Comm Air anymore and I feel sorry for all those who must do it for their jobs.

The fact that you can minimize their intrusions in now way allows that it is acceptable.

Just now, at 1109 I rolled up at DCA for a 1145 departure. Walked through the TSA 'pre' line without even unhooking my briefcase from the rollaboard. Since 1118 I am sitting in the airline club answering emails. Same deal yesterday, fast-track at Heathrow, a good lunch in United business and about 4 hrs of sleep followed by a seamless trip through CBP and customs at IAD.

It is what you make out of it and how much you are willing to pay. If you travel once a year on Spirit or AirTran, your experience may be different.

 

[bbchien]

The turbo is about five grand to replace, and you generally go through two of them to one engine TBO. I've had one nearly fail in flight. It was making audible grinding noises and the mechanic said it was probably five minutes away from seizing.

That's a full rental power Turbo arrow.

AS I have commented before, I am now on engines # 5 and 6. 1-4 all made turbo TBO. Guys with no stake in the aircraft are my worst nightmare.

Even on checkrides, my aircraft comes with me. Even in the third seat.

 

[CT Arrow]

Just now, at 1109 I rolled up at DCA for a 1145 departure. Walked through the TSA 'pre' line without even unhooking my briefcase from the rollaboard. Since 1118 I am sitting in the airline club answering emails. Same deal yesterday, fast-track at Heathrow, a good lunch in United business and about 4 hrs of sleep followed by a seamless trip through CBP and customs at IAD.

It is what you make out of it and how much you are willing to pay. If you travel once a year on Spirit or AirTran, your experience may be different.

Bingo!

 

[Frank]

Does weight and balance play a role in the turbo IIs not doing so well? We had one at a flying club I belong to, and it was very easy to load it so that it was out of balance forward, which in turn meant that the nose gear could take a beating, and I always wondered if the engine was not getting beat up when pilots dropped the nose too hard on landing. Of course, too far forward CG could also slow the plane down a lot and make handling seem terrible, as well.

 

[Ghery]

Maybe its just my experience with what are probably crooked beat up flight school arrows...but why an arrow when maybe there is a 206 or 210 out there. I cannot stand flying the PA28R-200. Feels underpowered, heavy, ovens on hot days and just doesnt do anything for me?

Just my two cents, my experiences in them havn't been great.

My problem with a PA-28R-200 has nothing to do with power (or lack thereof). Beats up my knees for unknown reasons and after 3 hours it's all I can do to crawl out of the plane.

Does weight and balance play a role in the turbo IIs not doing so well? We had one at a flying club I belong to, and it was very easy to load it so that it was out of balance forward, which in turn meant that the nose gear could take a beating, and I always wondered if the engine was not getting beat up when pilots dropped the nose too hard on landing. Of course, too far forward CG could also slow the plane down a lot and make handling seem terrible, as well.

We have a 3 blade prop modification on the club's Arrow I. Two up front and I need some weight in the baggage compartment to keep the CG aft of the forward limit. This does not help handling.

 

[Frank]

We have a 3 blade prop modification on the club's Arrow I. Two up front and I need some weight in the baggage compartment to keep the CG aft of the forward limit. This does not help handling.

Are you saying that adding weight in the baggage compartment does not help handling or that the forward CG does not help handling?

 

[Ghery]

Are you saying that adding weight in the baggage compartment does not help handling or that the forward CG does not help handling?

Forward CG. Requires trim that adds drag. Same as any other plane, best speed with least drag is with aft CG. That block of concrete we put in the baggage compartment adds nothing except for moving the CG back a little bit.