Turbine MX costs

flyersfan31

flyersfan31

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Freiburgfan31
I was looking at the high class airplane porn the other day (i.e. turboprops) and got to wondering. What kind of mx costs do you face on, say, a Pt6 or a Garrett AiResearch over the lifecycle. I pretty much know the OH and annual costs of maintaining different piston engines, but nothin about turbines.

We had some aeroderivative turbines in some of our powerplants at my old company. I seem to recall A/B/C inspections, with varying degrees of cost/complexity. The only ongoing cost I can think of if you're living with a turboprop is a compressor wash, maybe 1AU every 25hrs? I know there is MUCH more.

Anyone have any general data points on cost of ownership?

(Curious, just curious)
 
The Pratts are surprisingly benign for years, then you spend some money. On a year-to-year basis, they are often cheaper than the big-bore pistons, for two reasons:
1. The overhaul interval is twice as long, at 3,600 hours. They can go 8,000 hours on life extension programs, used by the owners of most older airplanes.
2. They will normally make TBO.
3. Like piston engines, there is no overhaul requirement for part 91 airplanes. Just run them until they need something. The life extension programs allow 8,000 hrs between overhauls. That's forever for a GA airplane.
4. A hot section inspection HSI is required at each mid-life (every 1,800 hours, can be 10k per side or 40k per side. In most cases the 1,800 hours of turbine time will cost no for maintenance than a big-bore piston. and in some cases much less. But fuel burn will be higher. But turbines are usually faster than pistons, so the trip times are reduced, so fewer hours flown to cover the same miles. We did HSI's on two dash -21's last fall for less than 12.5k per side, which gives the owner another 1,800 hours before they require anything else other than normal maintenance. He won't live that long.

Average guy sees less than 40 GPH for his piston twin, almost double that for a King Air 90, craps his pants and goes to the house without thinking it through. Sometimes the turbine makes sense, sometimes it doesn't.



flyersfan31 said:
I was looking at the high class airplane porn the other day (i.e. turboprops) and got to wondering. What kind of mx costs do you face on, say, a Pt6 or a Garrett AiResearch over the lifecycle. I pretty much know the OH and annual costs of maintaining different piston engines, but nothin about turbines.

We had some aeroderivative turbines in some of our powerplants at my old company. I seem to recall A/B/C inspections, with varying degrees of cost/complexity. The only ongoing cost I can think of if you're living with a turboprop is a compressor wash, maybe 1AU every 25hrs? I know there is MUCH more.

Anyone have any general data points on cost of ownership?

(Curious, just curious)
Click to expand...
 
I have a buddy with a 2001 Meridian. His last annual was $65,000, of which about half was engine-related, due to repairing inlet corrosion. Neither Pratt nor Piper would cover the repair under warranty (actually 2 repairs within 2 months of each other) because they said it was caused by the fact that he didn't do compressor washes per Pratt's recommendation -- after EVERY FLIGHT that's in the vicinity of the coast. He's in Fort Lauderdale.

The inlet corrosion issue is affecting about 10 percent of the Meridian fleet and there is no real fix, only continually re-repairing it.

Piston planes you can fly them until something breaks, get it repaired, and go again. Turboprops you really have to be more proactive and get things before they break.

Edit: Oh, and overhauls on turbines are all over the place. Typically, you won't get a cost quoted until they open up the engine. But for a PT6A, you're facing at least $250K to $400K apiece, depending on the variant.
 
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The person who I bought my Aztec from replaced it with a Cheyenne II.

The engines are considered "higher time" but still have 1500 hours left on them. I think they go to 6,000. So if you think about that, his "higher time" engines still have about as much time left as the "low time" engines in the Aztec he sold me.

The catch is that it's $250,000 to overhaul the engines... each. It would take me a lot of engine maintenance to get up to that overhaul price. Plus he burns 70 gallons per hour in cruise (total), although he goes 260-270 kts doing it at altitude. If you look at mpg of the Cheyenne vs. the Navajo, the Cheyenne is about 15% worse mpg, but goes a lot faster doing it. Oh, and the props cost more.

I don't know anything about the other maintenance that he needs to do on it, and he hasn't owned the plane long enough to expect to have problems with it. It really does depend on your mission. For people who fly a lot (probably on the order of 500+ hours per year) and otherwise it fits within their missions, I suspect the turbines actually could make more sense. For most of us, the piston engines probably make more sense. I would be very surprised if I could ever justify a turbine aircraft for the flying I do.

I got to poke at a Meridian a few weeks ago. Very cool airplane. Apparently the owner uses it to fly to Florida a lot (from New Jersey), so for him the turbine made more sense.
 
Our last set of -42's at Dallas Airmotive was just over $400k for both. But they were first-run engines. Most people never overhaul them. No need to spend the money. The hot section is where all the heat and wear are generated, the power section is nothing more than a 15:1 gearbox and a few accessories.
Ken Ibold said:
I have a buddy with a 2001 Meridian. His last annual was $65,000, of which about half was engine-related, due to repairing inlet corrosion. Neither Pratt nor Piper would cover the repair under warranty (actually 2 repairs within 2 months of each other) because they said it was caused by the fact that he didn't do compressor washes per Pratt's recommendation -- after EVERY FLIGHT that's in the vicinity of the coast. He's in Fort Lauderdale.

The inlet corrosion issue is affecting about 10 percent of the Meridian fleet and there is no real fix, only continually re-repairing it.

Piston planes you can fly them until something breaks, get it repaired, and go again. Turboprops you really have to be more proactive and get things before they break.

Edit: Oh, and overhauls on turbines are all over the place. Typically, you won't get a cost quoted until they open up the engine. But for a PT6A, you're facing at least $250K to $400K apiece, depending on the variant.
Click to expand...
 
I actually spent some time talking to the mechanics at Skytech about that Meridian corrosion problem. They rolled their eyes at that P&W recommendation, as you can imagine. That's not a solution, it's ridiculous.


So, say an average of $350,000 every 6000hrs? that's (counting on fingers, lessee here) about $58/hr overhaul reserve. Not bad.

Then again you've got, what, $20k annuals for a Meridian. I imagine a TBM 700 would be maybe a little more. A King Air? $30k?

Single turboprops make a lot of sense - burning maybe 40gph? 280pph? But going maybe 240-260kts (not the Meridian, but the TBM). Twin turbines like the Cheyenne, maybe less sense, for the private owner, that is.
 
Depends on what the private owner wants to do. Family with three kids and a nanny, couple of kids friends, all the stuff that goes along can fill a King Air cabin in a New York minute. Not much weight, but lots of cubes. You can buy a nice King Air for the same or less money than any of the turboprop singles, and have something you can load up and go.

In the big cabin market, a used B-200 for $1.2 mil vs a used PC-12 for $2.4 mil is a slam dunk. "yeah, but what about the operating costs?" comes the cry from the amateurs. As is the case with most owners, they have no clue that the big money is in the cost of the asset and the fixed costs.

flyersfan31 said:
I actually spent some time talking to the mechanics at Skytech about that Meridian corrosion problem. They rolled their eyes at that P&W recommendation, as you can imagine. That's not a solution, it's ridiculous.


So, say an average of $350,000 every 6000hrs? that's (counting on fingers, lessee here) about $58/hr overhaul reserve. Not bad.

Then again you've got, what, $20k annuals for a Meridian. I imagine a TBM 700 would be maybe a little more. A King Air? $30k?

Single turboprops make a lot of sense - burning maybe 40gph? 280pph? But going maybe 240-260kts (not the Meridian, but the TBM). Twin turbines like the Cheyenne, maybe less sense, for the private owner, that is.
Click to expand...
 
I had the opportunity to maintain PT-6s for a couple of decades. They are way expensive to maintain, and often have unexpected and huge expenses.

The first shock I remember is when we hot sectioned a -20 on an old A90. During manufacture, P&W scribed mark on the PT wheels for their own purposes. Unfortunately, those scribe marks made them "unairworthy." Pratt would not change their mind or help with any of the costs. $50,000 per wheel, or something obscene like that.

Then the PT blades had some kid of corrosion on them, even though we followed the engine washing schedule recommended by Pratt. We were able to find some used serviceable ones of these, but I think it was something like another $10K/ side for these.

Then we bought a 200, and later a 350. The surprises never ended. Fuel control untis, combustion liners, etc................these things are a huge expense. Don't get me going on exhaust stacks....but those are Beech parts.
 
wabower said:
In the big cabin market, a used B-200 for $1.2 mil vs a used PC-12 for $2.4 mil is a slam dunk. "yeah, but what about the operating costs?" comes the cry from the amateurs. As is the case with most owners, they have no clue that the big money is in the cost of the asset and the fixed costs.
Click to expand...

That argument goes down to cars, too, where people go out and spend $35,000 for a new car becaus gas is "killing them" on their SUV that gets half the fuel economy. Of course, the SUV depreciated a whole bunch and they got 1/4 of what they paid for it on trade-in, with only 40,000 miles on it.

This is why I like my Ford. The gas is cheap in comparison to the fact that it's been reliable and cost me very little to buy. Yet, I still get comments about people thinking it's an expensive toy. Go figure... :confused:
 
kgruber said:
I had the opportunity to maintain PT-6s for a couple of decades. They are way expensive to maintain, and often have unexpected and huge expenses.

The first shock I remember is when we hot sectioned a -20 on an old A90. During manufacture, P&W scribed mark on the PT wheels for their own purposes. Unfortunately, those scribe marks made them "unairworthy." Pratt would not change their mind or help with any of the costs. $50,000 per wheel, or something obscene like that.

Then the PT blades had some kid of corrosion on them, even though we followed the engine washing schedule recommended by Pratt. We were able to find some used serviceable ones of these, but I think it was something like another $10K/ side for these.

Then we bought a 200, and later a 350. The surprises never ended. Fuel control untis, combustion liners, etc................these things are a huge expense. Don't get me going on exhaust stacks....but those are Beech parts.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. I worked several years on the ground-crew for a cropduster that flew 3 PT6A's on the spray planes. The only engine trouble we ever had out of any of the turbines I worked with was two summers ago, one of the -34's started making metal. End of the season for him. He parked it and had a guy come up from AR to dismount the engine and drive it back for o/h. He had come up from Louisiana to help out and his plane looked pretty 'run-out' to begin with. We had a low fuel pressure issue on one of our planes a few years ago, but I think they found that to be a quick fix.
 
It's a whole new world of cost I'e finished 2 hots in the last 3 months, Meridan = $39,000. We lost 16 CT blades due to sulfidation at $1,129.00 ea. A -34 Jetprop = 21,000, we lost the inlet guide vane due to cracking requiring a new unit, all CT blades passed. Both ships were at 1700 hrs and had no performance issues. I had a Pratt caused compressor FOD repair at $213,000! fun fun.

Preventive maintenance should include 100 hr compressor and CT washes. 400 hr fuel nozzle flow checks and alternator brush and bearing change. 500 hr start/gen brush replacement. 1000 hr start/gen overhaul and oil filter replacement.

You pay a hefty price for performance, reliability, and sex appeal. And you can expect the price of parts to be high and long down time for major repairs.

The Jet prop will be my next aircraft or replacement for the Malibu.
 
I've known a couple guys that moved up from piston twins to King Airs; each was a B-90. The each got in thinking they could get time in the plane without expensive hot sections. First guy sold his after the first $50,000 plus annual with a hot section shortly afterward. Second fella just did a hot section that was over $25,000 after putting just over 100 hours on the plane.

Here are some C-90 numbers from Conklin and De decker:

Non-fuel Cost per Hour

Make/Model: Used King Air C90A
Program Length: 10 Years
Direct Cost (Average):
Fuel $ -
Fuel Additives/Lubricants -
Maintenance Labor 172.87
Parts 174.17
Inspections 8.19
Engine Restoral 145.06
Component Overhaul (All) 18.71
Life Limited Components (All) 12.58
Total Direct Cost per Hour - 10 Year Average: $ 531.57

Notice this is without fuel.

Add to that: cost of the plane; hanger; recurrent training; insurance. I think you'll find it's well over $1,000 per hour to operate for someone getting 250 hours a year in it. It's all just a matter of what's affordable to you.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Add to that: cost of the plane; hanger; recurrent training; insurance. I think you'll find it's well over $1,000 per hour to operate for someone getting 250 hours a year in it. It's all just a matter of what's affordable to you.

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...

There is no doubt that this would be conspicuous consumption at its worst for me. I can conjure up all sorts of reasons and excuses, but there's just no way I could or would throw that kind of coin at a plane. If I told my wife we had a $200k bill for an engine repair she'd toss me out of the house. Reason: she'd have to keep working that much longer to pay for it!!!
 
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