Tube and Fabric tie down Southern California?

[Addicted2climbing]

Hello All,

I am a Student pilot about 75% done and my goal is to immediatley after get my tailwheel endorsement and buy a vintage taildragger. Something like a Champ, J3, J5, L2.. Unfortunately I am 6'4" tall so a luscombe, C140 is out even though they would be desireable being metal. A Tcart or Chief is a possibilty if I fit, but chances are will need a tandem arangement.

My problem is I live in the Los Angeles area and there is not much chance I could afford a Hanger. Sharring one is a possibility, but chances are I would need to keep it outside on a tie down for the first year or so of owning while I see if there is added funds for a hanger. Also none of my local airports have awnings to keep a plane under so it will be outside.. I fear this is a big no no, but curious if it would work with covers for the wings, stab, rudder and glass? Anyone have any experience with tube and fabric planes left out in the weather in So Cal? I know modern covering has come a long way so maybe its not as big a deal now...

 

[Fearless Tower]

Hello All,

I am a Student pilot about 75% done and my goal is to immediatley after get my tailwheel endorsement and buy a vintage taildragger. Something like a Champ, J3, J5, L2.. Unfortunately I am 6'4" tall so a luscombe, C140 is out even though they would be desireable being metal. A Tcart or Chief is a possibilty if I fit, but chances are will need a tandem arangement.

My problem is I live in the Los Angeles area and there is not much chance I could afford a Hanger. Sharring one is a possibility, but chances are I would need to keep it outside on a tie down for the first year or so of owning while I see if there is added funds for a hanger. Also none of my local airports have awnings to keep a plane under so it will be outside.. I fear this is a big no no, but curious if it would work with covers for the wings, stab, rudder and glass? Anyone have any experience with tube and fabric planes left out in the weather in So Cal? I know modern covering has come a long way so maybe its not as big a deal now...

A 170 would probably work well for you -vintage looks and feel and all metal. Basically a 172 cabin with the wheel in back where it belongs.

If you are interested in one, PM me - I am looking to sell my 1948 170 - I'm not far away - San Diego if you want to take a look and see if it will work for you.

As far as your question about tube and fabric outdoors - it can be done with modern fabrics and good care. I know of alot of fabric covered taildraggers out here that are tied down outside, although the sun and moisture do still take their toll over time.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Where in LA are you located?

 

[Addicted2climbing]

I am in Burbank Ca..

I would consider a 170 for sure. Unfortunatley right now, all my funds are going towards getting my license. My goal would be to purchase something in the fall or early next year. Another possiblity in metal would be a straight tail 172 and do the tailwheel conversion. I am currently helping with the design CAD work for a friend who is redesigning a new Tailwheel conversion for early 172 models using a grove gear. He is part owner in the STC. Wha looked like a simple project ot him and myself has turned into a complete redesign... But its fun work..

One of the reasons I am leaning toward tube and fabric though is I just liek the nostalgia of them. Also they fall within a price range easier to justify to the wife... My goal is something in the 25K range or less.. If less then any remaining funds could possibly go toward a hanger.

Marc

 

[Fearless Tower]

How far are you willing to drive? You can sometimes find hangars if you go east toward Chino or Corona.

Personally, I wouldn't want to keep a fabric plane outside at BUR, but CNO tends to be a little drier.

25k or less probably won't get you into anything like a 170 (at least not a well maintained one). You probably can get into a Champ or possibly a lower powered Citabria in that range though.

 

[Tom-D]

My problem is I live in the Los Angeles area and there is not much chance I could afford a Hanger. Sharring one is a possibility, but chances are I would need to keep it outside on a tie down for the first year or so of owning while I see if there is added funds for a hanger. Also none of my local airports have awnings to keep a plane under so it will be outside.. I fear this is a big no no, but curious if it would work with covers for the wings, stab, rudder and glass? Anyone have any experience with tube and fabric planes left out in the weather in So Cal? I know modern covering has come a long way so maybe its not as big a deal now...

Rag and tube is my thing, I restore and recover old aircraft.
The new fabric systems have no problems setting out in the sun, the problem we have now is the wooden formers, they are effected by the humidity, and swell breaking the varnish protection/seal, then they rot.

When the recover is completed over properly protected wood using urethan 2 part varnishes the wood will be good to go 25-30 years out side.

Sun and UV are no longer any problems for the new finishes, after all paint is paint and it will only be as good as the manufacturer makes it.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Rag and tube is my thing, I restore and recover old aircraft.
The new fabric systems have no problems setting out in the sun, the problem we have now is the wooden formers, they are effected by the humidity, and swell breaking the varnish protection/seal, then they rot.

When the recover is completed over properly protected wood using urethan 2 part varnishes the wood will be good to go 25-30 years out side.

Sun and UV are no longer any problems for the new finishes, after all paint is paint and it will only be as good as the manufacturer makes it.

While that is true about the new fabrics and finishes, something to keep in mind is that a lot the cheaper fabric planes have older fabric and or lower quality finishes. It is unfortunately not uncommon to find planes where they have put new paint on older fabric. A knowledgable IA will be able to spot this on a pre-buy if you don't notice it first.

Before I bought my 170, I passed on a Citabria that had a recent paint job (less than 5 years) over 20 year old fabric. It looked really nice....from a distance.


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[Tom-D]

While that is true about the new fabrics and finishes, something to keep in mind is that a lot the cheaper fabric planes have older fabric and or lower quality finishes. It is unfortunately not uncommon to find planes where they have put new paint on older fabric. A knowledgable IA will be able to spot this on a pre-buy if you don't notice it first.

Before I bought my 170, I passed on a Citabria that had a recent paint job (less than 5 years) over 20 year old fabric. It looked really nice....from a distance.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

And then you get this:

 

[Tom-D]

An old friend and A&P-IA was buying a Stinson 108, he told the owner the price he would pay for the aircraft, the seller thought that was too low, the buyer told the seller that the aircraft was due for a re-cover, the seller said " oh no it was painted 4 years ago".

My friend went to his truck gat a 2 foot piece of ordinance tape and pressed a foot of it on the side of the fuselage, and asked the seller if he wanted to pull it off.

The seller said sure pull it. off came a 2 foot section of paint.
the seller was a bit upset.

 

[Fearless Tower]

the seller was a bit upset.

He's the one who said 'pull it off'!

 

[Tom-D]

He's the one who said 'pull it off'!

When Ceconite is used it is always the paint that fails, never the fabric.

Never punch test ceconite, there is no approved test for it.

 

[Addicted2climbing]

How far are you willing to drive? You can sometimes find hangars if you go east toward Chino or Corona.

Personally, I wouldn't want to keep a fabric plane outside at BUR, but CNO tends to be a little drier.

25k or less probably won't get you into anything like a 170 (at least not a well maintained one). You probably can get into a Champ or possibly a lower powered Citabria in that range though.

When the time finally comes where I can actually buy a plane I will see what my budget can afford. I doubt a 170 is in my range but who knows. Plus I'll have access to my friends 172 conversion as well. There is just something about a nostalgic plane that I have always liked. Never one for old cars, but planes that is another story. I think I'd be happy as a clam with only old tail dragger that burns in the 5 gph range. I love the chief but I'm told that I am too tall.

 

[Addicted2climbing]

Rag and tube is my thing, I restore and recover old aircraft.
The new fabric systems have no problems setting out in the sun, the problem we have now is the wooden formers, they are effected by the humidity, and swell breaking the varnish protection/seal, then they rot.

When the recover is completed over properly protected wood using urethan 2 part varnishes the wood will be good to go 25-30 years out side.

Sun and UV are no longer any problems for the new finishes, after all paint is paint and it will only be as good as the manufacturer makes it.

I see you have a Fairchild 24 with the Warner engine. Wow that's a beauty. I would have listed a Fairchild in my list above, but know its out of the range for me. Still one day I would love to go for a ride in one. I am not too far from Santa Paula airport and it is loaded with nostalgic planes from Howard's to a couple of Ryan's. Also many other amazing planes.

I am getting my feet wet in aircraft tube and fabric construction as my Eaa chapter has a club project and we are building a cygnet. It was a donated project that was close to done, but we stripped it and are going through it and fixing a few mistakes. We had to cut out all the wing attachment points and I had to design new ones in Solidworks that were two piece so that they could be installed to a fuselage that has already been welded. Lots of good experience. I am looking forward to learning how to cover the fuselage when the time comes.

I figure this experience will allow me to learn just what is involved in restoring an old tail dragged and if I am willing to do it or if I want to splurge for one already restored. Either way I am sure there will always be something to fix.

Thank you for your reply regarding the modern fabrics. It gives me hope that in. A pinch I can keep whatever I buy outside until I can find a hanger partner...

Marc

 

[N1347B]

When the time finally comes where I can actually buy a plane I will see what my budget can afford. I doubt a 170 is in my range but who knows. Plus I'll have access to my friends 172 conversion as well. There is just something about a nostalgic plane that I have always liked. Never one for old cars, but planes that is another story. I think I'd be happy as a clam with only old tail dragger that burns in the 5 gph range. I love the chief but I'm told that I am too tall.

I have friends your height who own and fly Luscombes. There are many seat options. One is as simple as adjusting the padding in the seat.

Deb


1948 Luscombe 8E
"Lester"

 

[Skylane81E]

What about an EAB with folding wings? Take it home at the end of the day.

 

[Tom-D]

I see you have a Fairchild 24 with the Warner engine. Wow that's a beauty. I would have listed a Fairchild in my list above, but know its out of the range for me.

Marc

Pay me now or pay me later, you can buy better aircraft than you can build.

 

[pmanton]

25k or less probably won't get you into anything like a 170 (at least not a well maintained one). You probably can get into a Champ or possibly a lower powered Citabria in that range though.

3 years or so ago I did a pre buy on a fairly decent 170B that went for 30K.
They are availble with luck.

Incidently both my wife and I are from Burbank--before your time though.
Burroughs 56 for me 58 for the wife. Soloed at Grand Central Air Terminal in 54.

Paul
N1431A
N83803
2AZ1