TSA threatens blogger

Maybe the TSA should consider hiring the GeekSquad...

The agents then said they wanted to take an image of his hard drive. Frischling said they had to go to WalMart to buy a hard drive, but when they returned were unable to get it to work. Frischling said the keyboard on his laptop was no longer working after they tried to copy his files
 
They should get SAG cards - they're all actors in the Security Theatre!
 
Spike, since you know more about this stuff than I do, maybe you can clarify, but...

If they didn't have a search warrant, what gave them the right to enter? It sounds like he invited them in - I certainly would have shut the door in their face. Also, don't subpoenas usually provide for some reasonable time to gather and submit the required information? Why bother with these guys at all that evening if all they're allowed to do is to hand-deliver a subpoena?
 
Interesting. If the subject of the article (forgot his name already) had been a little more assertive, things could have been interesting (I don't mean in some kind of crazy standoff kind of way).

On the one hand, I can't say I have a problem with the government taking certain steps to find out who leaked the stuff. On the other hand, the manner in which they did so is...concerning.

Everybody likes to rag on the Constitution. In cases like this, it's your - and, by extension, our - best friend.
 
Spike, since you know more about this stuff than I do, maybe you can clarify, but...

If they didn't have a search warrant, what gave them the right to enter? It sounds like he invited them in - I certainly would have shut the door in their face. Also, don't subpoenas usually provide for some reasonable time to gather and submit the required information? Why bother with these guys at all that evening if all they're allowed to do is to hand-deliver a subpoena?

Bottom line is that it would seem this particular circumstance became what is known as a "consensual encounter." Absent certain circumstances (which aren't easy to discuss in generalities, but which don't really seem to be present), that means there's nothing objectionable (in the legal sense) about what happened here.

As to subpoenas: suffice it to say that they're frequently misused and/or abused. In the not-so-far-away past, subpoenas have been used to flat-out subvert the warrant process - and there's no arguing that. I'm not going to get into details, but just google something like "subpoena and 'federal government,'" and you'll see what I'm getting at.
 
Each time I think the TSA can't get any worse, they surprise me.
 
Each time I think the TSA can't get any worse, they surprise me.


X2. Most of the ones I encountered have been less than stellar and really don't have a clue about basic airport and airline operations.
 
Doesn't this statement sum it all up?

“To go into this one reporter’s house and copy his computer files and threaten him, it strikes me that they’re more aggressive with this reporter than with the guy who got on this flight.”
 
God I wish they'd come and "Investigate" why I have a link to that document on my website as well.

Please, god, let the TSA investigate me.
 
I do NOT like the TSA, but I do have a question that has always bothered me...if something is classified and someone who has authority to view it leaks it, they can get into trouble.

Yet why is it that a reporter then flashes said classified document across the world and they cannot be touched? Of course I say this and I posted the whole SD over at AOPA! LOL
 
I do NOT like the TSA, but I do have a question that has always bothered me...if something is classified and someone who has authority to view it leaks it, they can get into trouble.

Yet why is it that a reporter then flashes said classified document across the world and they cannot be touched? Of course I say this and I posted the whole SD over at AOPA! LOL

Classified information that is exposed somehow to the press is no longer "secure."

The landmark case is New York Times v. US
 
God I wish they'd come and "Investigate" why I have a link to that document on my website as well.

Please, god, let the TSA investigate me.

Nick, should we tip off the TSA that you have the document on your website?

(serious question - if you do, it might set a good precedent overall. I know you're the sort who won't back down from these folks)
 
Each time I think the TSA can't get any worse, they surprise me.

Hey, there's plenty of amendments to the Constitution that they haven't shredded yet! This one hits at the 1st, and they've pretty much tossed the 4th in the bin already. I'll bet they're not real fans of the 2nd either!

Soon, they'll be showing up on your doorsteps with overnight bags if you live near an airport, demanding to be quartered in your home.:yikes:
 
I do NOT like the TSA, but I do have a question that has always bothered me...if something is classified and someone who has authority to view it leaks it, they can get into trouble.

Yet why is it that a reporter then flashes said classified document across the world and they cannot be touched? Of course I say this and I posted the whole SD over at AOPA! LOL
Are you suggesting that the document the blogger put on his website was classified?

I have not read anything to suggest that it was. The fact that the document was sent to unsecured to many airlines, travel agents, and other such industry people suggests that at most it would have been an official use only document. Not exactly the Pentagon Papers.

Do you have anything to support the ascertain the document was classified and is protected as such? If you do can you also help me to understand why the document was sent out by the TSA to many people who did not likely have the authority to view such classified documents?
 
Are you suggesting that the document the blogger put on his website was classified?

I have not read anything to suggest that it was. The fact that the document was sent to unsecured to many airlines, travel agents, and other such industry people suggests that at most it would have been an official use only document. Not exactly the Pentagon Papers.

Do you have anything to support the ascertain the document was classified and is protected as such? If you do can you also help me to understand why the document was sent out by the TSA to many people who did not likely have the authority to view such classified documents?

The linked article specifically said that it was NOT classified.
 
John et all, if you really want to know:
http://www.ridetheskies.com/Screening_Management_SOP_Redacted.pdf

The only warning is "Sensitive Security Information" at the top and bottom of each page and a disclaimer on the first that reads:

"SENSITIVE SECURITY INFORMATION
WARNING: THIS RECORD CONTAINS SENSITIVE SECURITY INFORMATION THAT IS CONTROLLED UNDER 49 CFR PARTS 15 AND 1520.
NO PART OF THIS RECORD MAY BE DISCLOSED TO PERSONS WITHOUT A “NEED TO KNOW,” AS DEFINED IN 49 CFR PARTS 15 AND
1520, EXCEPT WITH THE WRITTEN PERMISSION OF THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THE TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION OR
THE SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION. UNAUTHORIZED RELEASE MAY RESULT IN CIVIL PENALTIES OR OTHER ACTION. FOR U.S. GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, PUBLIC DISCLOSURE GOVERNED BY 5 U.S.C. 552 AND 49 CFR PARTS 15 AND 1520."

edit: The American People have a need to know, IMHO.
 
John et all, if you really want to know:
http://www.ridetheskies.com/Screening_Management_SOP_Redacted.pdf

The only warning is "Sensitive Security Information" at the top and bottom of each page and a disclaimer on the first that reads:

"SENSITIVE SECURITY INFORMATION
WARNING: THIS RECORD CONTAINS SENSITIVE SECURITY INFORMATION THAT IS CONTROLLED UNDER 49 CFR PARTS 15 AND 1520.
NO PART OF THIS RECORD MAY BE DISCLOSED TO PERSONS WITHOUT A “NEED TO KNOW,” AS DEFINED IN 49 CFR PARTS 15 AND
1520, EXCEPT WITH THE WRITTEN PERMISSION OF THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THE TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION OR
THE SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION. UNAUTHORIZED RELEASE MAY RESULT IN CIVIL PENALTIES OR OTHER ACTION. FOR U.S. GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, PUBLIC DISCLOSURE GOVERNED BY 5 U.S.C. 552 AND 49 CFR PARTS 15 AND 1520."

edit: The American People have a need to know, IMHO.

There's Classified information and there's unclassified.

Classified is protected and managed under an entirely different set of rules.

Even "For Official use Only" is not "classified."

It appears they are ginning up some sorta quasi-classified category for this doc.
 
There's Classified information and there's unclassified.

Classified is protected and managed under an entirely different set of rules.

Even "For Official use Only" is not "classified."

It appears they are ginning up some sorta quasi-classified category for this doc.

There are laws making it a felony for a government officer/employee/agent/etc. to knowingly disclose classified information. So, presuming something is classified, it's a felony to disclose it to someone not authorized to see it.

But, at that point, the cat's out of the bag. Legally speaking, is it a felony for your Average Joe to circulate something that was classified, but was leaked?

As in, if I'm some guy to whom classified information is disclosed through no complicity of my own, is it illegal for me to show it to my buddies?

I don't know if it is or isn't. Obviously, if it is, there are certain issues of constitutional magnitude there - if I'm some kind of reporter (I hesitate to call a "blogger" such, but I think they'd qualify under the 1st), there's an additional issue added.

Like I said, I don't find it unreasonable for the government to investigate how this got leaked; I do, however, find the manner of the investigation (presuming it to be true, of course) to be concerning.
 
There are laws making it a felony for a government officer/employee/agent/etc. to knowingly disclose classified information. So, presuming something is classified, it's a felony to disclose it to someone not authorized to see it.

But, at that point, the cat's out of the bag. Legally speaking, is it a felony for your Average Joe to circulate something that was classified, but was leaked?

As in, if I'm some guy to whom classified information is disclosed through no complicity of my own, is it illegal for me to show it to my buddies?

I don't know if it is or isn't. Obviously, if it is, there are certain issues of constitutional magnitude there - if I'm some kind of reporter (I hesitate to call a "blogger" such, but I think they'd qualify under the 1st), there's an additional issue added.

Like I said, I don't find it unreasonable for the government to investigate how this got leaked; I do, however, find the manner of the investigation (presuming it to be true, of course) to be concerning.

According to my father, who deals with classified materials all the time, yes, it is still illegal to KNOWINGLY release classified materials, even if you are not one of the people that was supposed to be privvy to it in the first place.
 
According to my father, who deals with classified materials all the time, yes, it is still illegal to KNOWINGLY release classified materials, even if you are not one of the people that was supposed to be privvy to it in the first place.

I took a very quick gander at the U.S. Code a few minutes, and it looks like your dad is right - the applicable statute doesn't discriminate between who does the disclosing/publishing/etc.

But, what's interesting is that this particular statute only makes it a crime to disclose certain types of classified information - namely, those relating to intelligence gathering activities. Granted, there might be other provisions buried in Title 18 or elsewhere relating to the disclosure of classified information, but it looks like 18 USC 798 (the linked statute above) only deals with disclosure of information relating to intelligence activities.
 
There are laws making it a felony for a government officer/employee/agent/etc. to knowingly disclose classified information. So, presuming something is classified, it's a felony to disclose it to someone not authorized to see it.

But, at that point, the cat's out of the bag. Legally speaking, is it a felony for your Average Joe to circulate something that was classified, but was leaked?

As in, if I'm some guy to whom classified information is disclosed through no complicity of my own, is it illegal for me to show it to my buddies?

I don't know if it is or isn't. Obviously, if it is, there are certain issues of constitutional magnitude there - if I'm some kind of reporter (I hesitate to call a "blogger" such, but I think they'd qualify under the 1st), there's an additional issue added.

NY Times v US specifically addressed the press.

I suppose the TSA Lawyers told the "investigators" to push since the blogger had no such protection.
 
I took a very quick gander at the U.S. Code a few minutes, and it looks like your dad is right - the applicable statute doesn't discriminate between who does the disclosing/publishing/etc.

But, what's interesting is that this particular statute only makes it a crime to disclose certain types of classified information - namely, those relating to intelligence gathering activities. Granted, there might be other provisions buried in Title 18 or elsewhere relating to the disclosure of classified information, but it looks like 18 USC 798 (the linked statute above) only deals with disclosure of information relating to intelligence activities.

There are other provisions (such as Critical Nuclear Weapon Design Information)

As usual, wikipedia does a good job on this topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restricted_Data
 
I took a very quick gander at the U.S. Code a few minutes, and it looks like your dad is right - the applicable statute doesn't discriminate between who does the disclosing/publishing/etc.

But, what's interesting is that this particular statute only makes it a crime to disclose certain types of classified information - namely, those relating to intelligence gathering activities. Granted, there might be other provisions buried in Title 18 or elsewhere relating to the disclosure of classified information, but it looks like 18 USC 798 (the linked statute above) only deals with disclosure of information relating to intelligence activities.

My question, based on the New York Times v. US link posted above - does that set precedent that basically invalidates that portion of the statute? Common law being a very powerful thing and all, it seems that once it has been leaked to someone who was not supposed to have it, the classification of the document is no longer valid, no?

edit: Also - is there an official definition that the SCOTUS uses to determine the meaning of the word "Press?" Could posting it to an aviation forum, for example, be considered the posting of news in the same way that a newspaper is?
 
But the document was not classified. That should change things.
 
But the document was not classified. That should change things.

It should. To avoid getting political, but still referencing the point - was not Dick Cheney's attempted use of a "sort of classified" document stamp shown to be also not a real classification?

IIRC, it was not held as classified.
 
Classified information that is exposed somehow to the press is no longer "secure."

The landmark case is New York Times v. US

Holy wow...what bassackward thinking that ruling is!

So it is "secret" until someone, anyone, "gives" it (against the law) to a reporter, who then has free reign to publish it? WTF?
 
Are you suggesting that the document the blogger put on his website was classified?

I have not read anything to suggest that it was. The fact that the document was sent to unsecured to many airlines, travel agents, and other such industry people suggests that at most it would have been an official use only document. Not exactly the Pentagon Papers.

Do you have anything to support the ascertain the document was classified and is protected as such? If you do can you also help me to understand why the document was sent out by the TSA to many people who did not likely have the authority to view such classified documents?

No...not at all, sorry if that is the way it was taken, this story was merely a convenient vehicle for me to ask my question.
 
NY Times v US specifically addressed the press.

I suppose the TSA Lawyers told the "investigators" to push since the blogger had no such protection.

Oops. I read that as NYT v. Sullivan.

My guess is that if this issue we're discussing in this thread were to end up before the USSC today, the majority would find that "bloggers" would qualify for press protection (assuming that such a status is necessary to trigger the prior restraint issues from NYT v. US - prior restraint is a very broad 1st Amdmt. doctrine that generally applies across the board).

At any rate, the whole thing is probably moot at this point.
 
My question, based on the New York Times v. US link posted above - does that set precedent that basically invalidates that portion of the statute? Common law being a very powerful thing and all, it seems that once it has been leaked to someone who was not supposed to have it, the classification of the document is no longer valid, no?

edit: Also - is there an official definition that the SCOTUS uses to determine the meaning of the word "Press?" Could posting it to an aviation forum, for example, be considered the posting of news in the same way that a newspaper is?

What we're looking at is the doctrine of "prior restraint." It's certainly legal mumbo-jumbo that not many people, including myself, have a good handle on - simply because it happens infrequently, because it's highly frowned on.

Anyway, a prior restraint is what it's name sounds like - a restraint on saying/publishing something before it's said or published. It's simply the government telling you that you're not allowed to say something.

For instance, if there's a law stating "thou shalt not discuss aviation matters on an internet forum under penalty of imprisonment," that's a prior restraint, because it places a "restraint" on you saying something "prior" to you actually saying it.

And, that's severely frowned upon, because freedom of expression is valued in this country.

So, in order to impose a prior restraint, there is a very high burden that the government has to meet. Classified information, where the classification is valid (that's very important, vis-a-vis some of the other issues raised in this thread), certainly meets that burden - the interest in protecting, say, convoy schedules in 1942 is ridiculously higher than whatever minimal interest there might be in publishing those schedules.

So, just look at it as a "balancing test" - if public interest in keeping something from being published vastly (and I mean beyond any reasonable dispute whatsoever) outweighs the interest in free speech, a prior restraint is potentially justified.

Make any sense? If it doesn't, it's probably because it's one of those things where: 1) you know it when you see it but can't explain it; and 2) I only have a minimal understanding because prior restraints just aren't seen frequently outside of law school classrooms (which shows how seriously they're frowned on).
 
So, just look at it as a "balancing test" - if public interest in keeping something from being published vastly (and I mean beyond any reasonable dispute whatsoever) outweighs the interest in free speech, a prior restraint is potentially justified.

But when someone like TSA distributes thousands of copies of a document electronically, what kind of reasonable expectation can be had that the document can be restrained? Seems to me if they're going to do an e-mail blast, they should be smart enough to know that people are going to hit the "forward" button...


Trapper John
 
And, that's severely frowned upon, because freedom of expression is valued in this country.

So, in order to impose a prior restraint, there is a very high burden that the government has to meet. Classified information, where the classification is valid (that's very important, vis-a-vis some of the other issues raised in this thread), certainly meets that burden - the interest in protecting, say, convoy schedules in 1942 is ridiculously higher than whatever minimal interest there might be in publishing those schedules.

Your explanation makes sense, but in this very narrow context (and nearly every SOCTUS ruling hinges on one or two very narrow judgments) the TSA is clearly testing the definition of "press." Otherwise, they'd be using their investigative techniques on finding out who in government leaked the information.

Everyone that worked on or around a SAC base knew that nukes were stored there. Duh.

But we could neither confirm or deny the presence of nuclear weapons. Anyone that did would be liable under various federal and military statutes.

"Common knowledge" that is validated by a government agent is bad.
 
But when someone like TSA distributes thousands of copies of a document electronically, what kind of reasonable expectation can be had that the document can be restrained? Seems to me if they're going to do an e-mail blast, they should be smart enough to know that people are going to hit the "forward" button...


Trapper John

Precisely. TSA hasn't figured out what DoD did long ago -- anything on the internet is "Unclass" and no classified data should ever be distributed via the net, ho matter how many S's in your http.
 
So it is "secret" until someone, anyone, "gives" it (against the law) to a reporter, who then has free reign to publish it? WTF?

Actually, think about it a bit. If something is published on the front page of the NYT, how "secret" is it now? Should the WaPo not be able to reprint the article because the information is "classified"? It's certainly no longer secret, so what interest is there in preventing republication?
 
Your explanation makes sense, but in this very narrow context (and nearly every SOCTUS ruling hinges on one or two very narrow judgments) the TSA is clearly testing the definition of "press." Otherwise, they'd be using their investigative techniques on finding out who in government leaked the information.

I agree.

Well, I suppose it could be rank incompetence, too. :)

Everyone that worked on or around a SAC base knew that nukes were stored there. Duh.

But we could neither confirm or deny the presence of nuclear weapons. Anyone that did would be liable under various federal and military statutes.

"Common knowledge" that is validated by a government agent is bad.

Right. I think the "primary enforcement mechanism" is to cut these leaks off at the pass, so to speak. In other words, keep the cat in the bag by imposing some significant criminal liability for leaks - because it seems pretty clear that once the information has been leaked, there's not much that can be done (and, even if there were something, once it's out, there's just no undoing the damage).
 
So you are speaking in favor of unionizing the TSA?

Well, the main point is that they are actors in a ludicrous drama, not participants in a legitimate and well-conceived security apparatus.

As for whether they should be members of a union or not, I have no particular opinion one way or the other about that. If the TSA deals as competently with their employee-relations initiatives as they do with their core mission, then I suspect an organization effort might do well.
 
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