TSA goes partially sane!

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Jim Logajan

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Knives to be allowed through security, among other things:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/06/travel/tsa-carry-on-hawley/index.html

Sharp objects can no longer bring down aircraft, former Transportation Security Administration chief Kip Hawley told CNN, and the search for knives interferes with the search for objects that can harm aircraft.
...
"You can commit acts of violence on an aircraft with what is allowed now. With a Coke can, a key, a ruler, and some duck tape, you can make a 12-inch razor-sharp sword. And every eighth-grader would be able to do that."
...
"The air marshals and the flight attendants have legitimate concerns, certainly, for their own safety, but the threat of taking over a plane with a small, sharp instrument is zero," Hawley said. "You cannot necessarily prevent violence on an airplane, but that is not the TSA's mission. TSA's mission is to prevent a successful, catastrophic terrorist attack, and you cannot get a successful, catastrophic terrorist attack with a small knife or a Wiffle ball bat."
​
 
So, why was Kip Hawley utterly devoid of common sense when he had the job?
 
Jeff Oslick said:
So, why was Kip Hawley utterly devoid of common sense when he had the job?
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Beats me - I've always suspected there is a law of the universe that says the IQ of a person drops when they are assigned any sort of managerial responsibility. (Not to be confused with the "Peter Principle" which I think claims something else.)
 
So does this mean every TSA agent has confiscated their fill of Leathermans so now they will be allowed?
 
Jim Logajan said:
Beats me - I've always suspected there is a law of the universe that says the IQ of a person drops when they are assigned any sort of managerial responsibility. (Not to be confused with the "Peter Principle" which I think claims something else.)
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I think it has more to do with the "CYA first" principle than Peter's. For most bureaucrats the #1 concern is not catching the blame for anything that goes wrong.
 
I found it really interesting that the TSA will now allow people to carry small pocket knives on board aircraft now. But, here's a warning, don't try it in Michigan! It is still against Michigan State law to bring any type of knife, or any type of weapon for that matter, into an airport in Michigan and I believe it is a felony.

I also remember that KPHN, where I kept my airplane, had a policy banning people who have a valid CCW license from bring their licensed weapon onto the airport grounds.

Jean
 
Maverick said:
I found it really interesting that the TSA will now allow people to carry small pocket knives on board aircraft now. But, here's a warning, don't try it in Michigan! It is still against Michigan State law to bring any type of knife, or any type of weapon for that matter, into an airport in Michigan and I believe it is a felony.

I also remember that KPHN, where I kept my airplane, had a policy banning people who have a valid CCW license from bring their licensed weapon onto the airport grounds.

Jean
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Airports are not a gun free zone under Michigan law and NO airport authority can over-ride that. However, the boarding area for a commercial flight is gun free under federal law. You can carry in the terminal, but not past the security check points.

I suggest you familiarize yourself with Michigan's concealed weapons law before making such a statement.
 
Norman said:
Airports are not a gun free zone under Michigan law and NO airport authority can over-ride that. However, the boarding area for a commercial flight is gun free under federal law. You can carry in the terminal, but not past the security check points.

I suggest you familiarize yourself with Michigan's concealed weapons law before making such a statement.
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I am familiar with Michigan's gun laws as I am a holder of a CPL. My post was accurate in the fact that the airport management and the county of Saint Clair which owns the airport posted that prohibition and handed out flyers to people visiting the terminal.

Now this was some time ago and I haven't been to that airport for several years since I had sold my airplane. I don't know if they ever changed that policy or not.

As for the knife issue, that has been in the news lately that it is still illegal to bring a knife into an airport under Michigan law.

Jean
 
Maverick said:
I am familiar with Michigan's gun laws as I am a holder of a CPL. My post was accurate in the fact that the airport management and the county of Saint Clair which owns the airport posted that prohibition and handed out flyers to people visiting the terminal.

Now this was some time ago and I haven't been to that airport for several years since I had sold my airplane. I don't know if they ever changed that policy or not.

As for the knife issue, that has been in the news lately that it is still illegal to bring a knife into an airport under Michigan law.

Jean
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Then you know the places that are off limits. The county can't over-ride state law.
 
I would respectfully disagree due to the provision that any business can prohibit people from carrying a weapon into their facilities if they post such a prohibition. The company I work for has such a policy and so do many of our customers that I visit from time to time.

There is even a local gun shop that I visit that also prohibits it's patrons from carrying concealed weapons into their facility even though they are CPL holders. They must bring their pistols in unloaded and in a case.

I think we have strayed off topic at this point.

Jean
 
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Maverick said:
I would respectfully disagree due to the provision that any business can prohibit people from carrying a weapon into their facilities if they post such a prohibition. The company I work for has such a policy and so do many of our customers that I visit from time to time.

There is even a local gun shop that I visit that also prohibits it's patrons from carrying concealed weapons into their facility even though they are CPL holders. They must bring their pistols in unloaded and in a case.

I think we have strayed off topic at this point.

Jean
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Publicly owned. They can't override state law. Just went through this in January. However, inside the FBO which may be privately owned, they can say no.
 
Maverick said:
I found it really interesting that the TSA will now allow people to carry small pocket knives on board aircraft now.
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No they do not allow that now.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/22/17866879-tsa-delays-knives-rule?lite

The Transportation Security Administration has decided to delay a controversial new rule that would have allowed small knives to be carried on passenger aircraft, the agency said Monday,
Bats, golf clubs and other sports equipment that was set to be permitted under the new rule, will also stay banned, for now.
The TSA calls this a temporary delay, but has not decided a new implementation date.
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And as of the 13th the TSA website still states that they are prohibited and that they expect to change the rule soon.

http://www.tsa.gov/traveler-information/small-knives-soon-be-permitted-carry-luggage
 
EdFred said:
Publicly owned. They can't override state law. Just went through this in January. However, inside the FBO which may be privately owned, they can say no.
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Ed,

Here's an excerpt from KPHN's rules. Note that CPL holders are exempt.

Emphasis is mine.

SECTION 100.6 WEAPONS AND EXPLOSIVES
No person except federal, state and local sworn peace or law enforcement officers; duly
authorized Department of Homeland Security representatives such as Transportation Security,
Customs and Immigrations officials; authorized Airport officials; members of the armed forces
of the United States on official duty; or persons with current concealed weapon permits, shall
carry any weapon or explosive material onto the Airport. Properly encased, unloaded sporting
guns may be carried for transshipment. The possession of said articles shall not be in violation
of any of the laws of the County, the State of Michigan or the United States.
 
Norman said:
Ed,

Here's an excerpt from KPHN's rules. Note that CPL holders are exempt.

Emphasis is mine.

SECTION 100.6 WEAPONS AND EXPLOSIVES
No person except federal, state and local sworn peace or law enforcement officers; duly
authorized Department of Homeland Security representatives such as Transportation Security,
Customs and Immigrations officials; authorized Airport officials; members of the armed forces
of the United States on official duty; or persons with current concealed weapon permits, shall
carry any weapon or explosive material onto the Airport. Properly encased, unloaded sporting
guns may be carried for transshipment. The possession of said articles shall not be in violation
of any of the laws of the County, the State of Michigan or the United States.
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It would appear that they have amended the original policy. When they first posted the policy it said nothing about exempting CPL holders. Personally I'm happy to see that they have included CPL holders in the exemption. As I said in an earlier post I have not been out to KPHN for some time now since I sold my airplane.

The argument that the county owned airport cannot override state law by banning CPL holder from carrying on the airport grounds may be valid. I would prefer not to test that position and take on the cost of defending that position in court. That could be very costly and something I do not have the resources for.

Jean
 
Maverick said:
It would appear that they have amended the original policy. When they first posted the policy it said nothing about exempting CPL holders. Personally I'm happy to see that they have included CPL holders in the exemption. As I said in an earlier post I have not been out to KPHN for some time now since I sold my airplane.

The argument that the county owned airport cannot override state law by banning CPL holder from carrying on the airport grounds may be valid. I would prefer not to test that position and take on the cost of defending that position in court. That could be very costly and something I do not have the resources for.

Jean
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Them changing that may have had to do with the state slapping their wrist.
 
EdFred said:
Them changing that may have had to do with the state slapping their wrist.
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I suppose that's possible, it could also be that someone, respected by the airport management, pointed out an oversight and they decided to correct it.

If I remember correctly it was at a meeting of the "Friends of the Airport" that I first received that flyer. I thought it was over reaching and vague enough to make you wonder if they meant the pubic buildings or the entire grounds of the airport. I couldn't help thinking about someone who might want to take their guns on a hunting trip up north in their own airplane.

When Michigan became a "Must Issue" state the restrictions on where a CPL holder could carry were tighter than they are now. I think there is enough history to suggest that people who have gone through the background checks and were granted a license to carry do not pose a significant threat to anyone.

I do worry about the "Open Carry" initiative though. There seems to be an interpretation in the law that would allow people to openly carry a weapon in Michigan without a valid CPL. I have seen there is a group telling people that, in the absence of a criminal act, the police do not have a right to even ask them for identification.

Jean
 
Maverick said:
It would appear that they have amended the original policy. When they first posted the policy it said nothing about exempting CPL holders. Personally I'm happy to see that they have included CPL holders in the exemption. As I said in an earlier post I have not been out to KPHN for some time now since I sold my airplane.

The argument that the county owned airport cannot override state law by banning CPL holder from carrying on the airport grounds may be valid. I would prefer not to test that position and take on the cost of defending that position in court. That could be very costly and something I do not have the resources for.

Jean
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Jean, Ohio is the same way, county and city governments hands are tied on what gets posted so unless it is a "Passenger carrying terminal" or a private business you are generally good to go
 
Maverick said:
I do worry about the "Open Carry" initiative though. There seems to be an interpretation in the law that would allow people to openly carry a weapon in Michigan without a valid CPL. I have seen there is a group telling people that, in the absence of a criminal act, the police do not have a right to even ask them for identification.

Jean
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It's already legal to open carry. It must remain visible. Carrying in a vehicle without a CPL, you must still lock the gun in a case/trunk separate from the ammo.


Fun fact: Other than casinos, a CPL holder may openly carry in pistol free zones where they can't carry concealed.
 
Maverick said:
It would appear that they have amended the original policy. When they first posted the policy it said nothing about exempting CPL holders. Personally I'm happy to see that they have included CPL holders in the exemption. As I said in an earlier post I have not been out to KPHN for some time now since I sold my airplane.

The argument that the county owned airport cannot override state law by banning CPL holder from carrying on the airport grounds may be valid. I would prefer not to test that position and take on the cost of defending that position in court. That could be very costly and something I do not have the resources for.

Jean
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According to their web site those rules were originally promulgated in 1995 with the last approval in 2009 so it's likely they were amended at some point.
 
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