Truth or Myth -- FAA Written Exam

bbchien said:
Where do rumors like this come from..........(!)?
Click to expand...
Easy. We live in a world in which 2 year old children get prep courses so they can score high on the nursery school entrance exam. That kind of environment is perfect for almost any myth about testing to take hold.

So far no examiner has ever mentioned my knowledge test scores. The examiners I know personally don't mention it either. Some will understandably (they are human beings after all) have some expectations with a very high score of a barely passing one, but they tend to go by the wayside very quickly, usually in the first few minutes of the oral.
 
Mark has it right...other than needing to review areas missed with the ACS in place (which makes more work for the examiner, which is never beneficial), an examiner is not going to significantly change his oral or flight check based on the written.

Any who do so based solely on written test score should be avoided, IMO.
 
Last edited:
EdFred said:
Say you score your 100% on the written - but you memorized all the answers (although, not as likely to happen now as it was) - you still have to have the oral. You memorized everything, so you don't necessarily know the why behind the answers. DPE [...] does a follow up with "why is that the case?" and you respond with "uh...." well, guess what, you just set yourself up for a difficult oral especially if all of your responses to "why?" is "uh." But that's going to be the case whether you scored 70 80 90 or 100.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Ed. I concur with you on all your points, with an emphasis on: (1) it's harder to ace the test by mere memorization than in the past, and (2) if you just memorized the answers you'll have a hard time at the oral no matter what was your score at the written.

If you scored 70, 80 or 90 and you can't reason on why procedures were established in a given way, or meteorology, or aerodynamics, or airplane mechanics, I think you'll come home hurt no matter what. And it's fair, because if you don't know how a carburetor works, I don't want you overflying my house.

But will the DPE go specifically harder on you if you had perfect score? Will he/she go out of his/her way to find your weak spots and crush you?
Hmmmm. It sounds a little paranoid and I seriously doubt it. I'd love to hear more from CFIs with a long experience.
 
71% is only over-achieving is you're a loser. Students, study hard and try to get a good score.
 
I got in the high 90's on that thing and was still disappointed. If my DPE cared it certainly didn't show. That check ride was great, more like a lesson than a test, and I learned valuable stuff.
 
I made some boneheaded mistakes on several questions that I knew the right answers and ended up with a 78%. I was expecting to get some extra grilling from the DPE, but when I made a comment about my score he said something to the effect of "I'd be more concerned if you got 100%" so he confirmed a little bit of the "rumor" to me. He simply went over a few of the areas that I missed questions on and we moved on from there so it wasn't that big of deal.

Honestly I doubt it's that big of a deal no matter what you score.

I read an interview with another DPE and he said he usually can tell within the first 15 minutes if a student is going to pass or fail anyways. I feel it's most important to show you have a commanding knowledge of the rules and regulations right away and the rest goes down hill from there. If you stumble out of the gate then it likely gets tougher as the oral continues. I felt as though he had already passed me before we even started the flight portion so the pressure was off and we had a great flight.
 
PBristolJr said:
Totally dependent on the DPE.
Click to expand...
^^^^^^^^^^^ That

If I had scored 100% and the DPE grilled me on the oral anyway, I wouldn't mind. Afterall, I went to my checkrides prepared to prove that I am not an incompetent dumba**. That's what the checkride (oral and practical) should be about, right?
So I don't mind a DPE who looks at a 100% score with suspicion. I would too.

FWIW, I told all my DPEs that I am an engineer and understand every aspect of my airplane and all its systems with high confidence level. Usually I would get one question on a system and 15 to 20 seconds into my detailed explanation, the bored DPE would realize I wasn't kidding and switch to weather or some more interesting topics. Hey, I warned them. :)
 
BigBadLou said:
^^^^^^^^^^^ That

If I had scored 100% and the DPE grilled me on the oral anyway, I wouldn't mind. Afterall, I went to my checkrides prepared to prove that I am not an incompetent dumba**. That's what the checkride (oral and practical) should be about, right?
So I don't mind a DPE who looks at a 100% score with suspicion. I would too.

FWIW, I told all my DPEs that I am an engineer and understand every aspect of my airplane and all its systems with high confidence level. Usually I would get one question on a system and 15 to 20 seconds into my detailed explanation, the bored DPE would realize I wasn't kidding and switch to weather or some more interesting topics. Hey, I warned them. :)
Click to expand...

I'm an engineer as well and a few weeks prior to my check ride I just so happened to see a small nick on the propeller. I researched several documents and opinions on what is too big and read a very good Hartzell paper on the topic.
Then come exam time while we walked up to the plane the DPE just randomly asked me how big of a nick can there be in the propeller. I smiled and went on for three or four minutes explaining to him all the opinions and that I personally agree with the manufactures recommendation of 1/32" and referenced the Hartzell paper I read. I even explained how they fixed it when it was outside of tolerance.
He just looked at me with a blank stare and didn't ask another question about the plane. hah
 
BigBadLou said:
^^^^^^^^^^^ That
FWIW, I told all my DPEs that I am an engineer and understand every aspect of my airplane and all its systems with high confidence level. Usually I would get one question on a system and 15 to 20 seconds into my detailed explanation, the bored DPE would realize I wasn't kidding and switch to weather or some more interesting topics. Hey, I warned them. :)
Click to expand...

Ha! You spoke my mind.
I suspect I and you have a lot in common in the way we think about problems.

My background is in EE, and I wouldn't tell the DPE that it's unlikely he can explain to me how ignition works to me without me having to stop him and correct him, because I don't want to antagonize him... but yeah, it's true.
 
Cool, I'll go google the Hartzell paper immediately!

Incidentally, my instructor asked me once the difference between primary and secondary radar.
I stopped talking after 5 minutes because I got him bored.
He never asked me anything related to radars anymore.
 
One thing that seems to be getting lost here is that it appears that all the commenters took their checkrides under the PTS not the new ACS. One commenter casually mentioned it, but it is worth mentioning again that under the new ACS the examiners are obligated ask questions about the missed written test questions. Because of this new rule, I would say that the higher you score on the written the easier your checkride will go.
 
mondtster said:
One thing that seems to be getting lost here is that it appears that all the commenters took their checkrides under the PTS not the new ACS. One commenter casually mentioned it, but it is worth mentioning again that under the new ACS the examiners are obligated ask questions about the missed written test questions. Because of this new rule, I would say that the higher you score on the written the easier your checkride will go.
Click to expand...

Good point. Great to hear.

What concerns me about the ACS is that, if I understand correctly, the candidate is supposed to explain and defend his/her maneuvers while performing them. And that's not what I trained for. I didn't practice doing ground reference maneuvers within +/-100 ft while giving a seminar on them, taking questions, and answering in clear, polished English.
That's unnerving.
 
I got a 100, DPE said I studied too hard...but he didn't seem concerned, he asked some questions, but oral was 15 minutes, since I answered his oral questions correctly as well, I never gave him an opening to go digging.
 
Daniele P. Scarpazza said:
What concerns me about the ACS is that, if I understand correctly, the candidate is supposed to explain and defend his/her maneuvers while performing them. And that's not what I trained for. I didn't practice doing ground reference maneuvers within +/-100 ft while giving a seminar on them, taking questions, and answering in clear, polished English.
That's unnerving.
Click to expand...

For the most part I believe the checkride will be the same as it was under the PTS except more scenario based. At the private level nobody is expecting you to display instructional knowledge of the maneuver while you're flying, just perform the maneuver safely and within the standards. Additional questions while flying and distractions were a possibility under the PTS, so that should be nothing new.
 
Daniele P. Scarpazza said:
Ha! You spoke my mind.
I suspect I and you have a lot in common in the way we think about problems.

My background is in EE, and I wouldn't tell the DPE that it's unlikely he can explain to me how ignition works to me without me having to stop him and correct him, because I don't want to antagonize him... but yeah, it's true.
Click to expand...


This. My degree is in EE and I spent 7 years in the field between active duty tours and I might have rolled my eyes during the alternator vs generator discussion.....
 
Daniele P. Scarpazza said:
My background is in EE, and I wouldn't tell the DPE that it's unlikely he can explain to me how ignition works to me without me having to stop him and correct him, because I don't want to antagonize him... but yeah, it's true.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't antagonize the DPE for the sake of ego, but what about when he tries to tell you something you know without a doubt is wrong? On my instrument oral the DPE asked me what preflight actions I needed to take with my GPS (a CNX-80). He pounced on me because I didn't include a RAIM calculation. I replied that unless the unit reported WAAS to be unavailable I didn't need to do one because my GPS was certified under TSO-C146a. He was adamant that I still did. Fortunately for me, this was before the rule banning the CFII from the oral exam and my guy came to my defense.

I have the impression that he was ready to fail me at that point... though I could probably have prevailed by showing him the relevant entry in the AIM, I'm not sure he would have taken that well.
 
I always get a kick out of those who say getting 100 on a test is a red flag because you may have memorized the answers, Yeah, right. Much better to just get a bunch of questions wrong. I would dare to guess that if you got a 100, you probably have got a good enough handle on the material that the DPE could ask away and you'd do just fine. I've heard that with the new ACS, the DPE has access to the exact questions that were missed instead of the just the subject areas and he's required to ask them to ensure that you've received the required instruction after the exam.
 
Daniele P. Scarpazza said:
Good point. Great to hear.

What concerns me about the ACS is that, if I understand correctly, the candidate is supposed to explain and defend his/her maneuvers while performing them. And that's not what I trained for. I didn't practice doing ground reference maneuvers within +/-100 ft while giving a seminar on them, taking questions, and answering in clear, polished English.
That's unnerving.
Click to expand...

I always verbalize my maneuvers when I have a CFI in the aircraft, and would do so with a DPE in the aircraft. Just talk about what I'm doing and why. Isn't hard, and I certainly don't do so for every turn of the wheel. You should get in the habit when yo have a passenger. Just describe what you're doing with the airplane and why you're doing it.
 
The oral isn't going to be "pick one of three answers" or even just a fill in the blank in most cases. You'll have to explain yourself. Both on my private and my instrument ride, I had instructors that gave up after asking a few questions understanding that my level of answer indicated I had a breadth of knowledge. Of course, every once and a while you'll get an examiner who feels it's necessary to play "stump the chump." He doesn't feel superior until he's found something you can't answer. This can be quite tedious if you know the material. Usually, it devolves into some contrived situation that you'd be best to let him win and get on with your life.

I've never scored less than 93 on an FAA written test. It has NEVER been an issue on the checkirde.
 
azure said:
I wouldn't antagonize the DPE for the sake of ego, but what about when he tries to tell you something you know without a doubt is wrong? On my instrument oral the DPE asked me what preflight actions I needed to take with my GPS (a CNX-80). He pounced on me because I didn't include a RAIM calculation. I replied that unless the unit reported WAAS to be unavailable I didn't need to do one because my GPS was certified under TSO-C146a. He was adamant that I still did. Fortunately for me, this was before the rule banning the CFII from the oral exam and my guy came to my defense.

I have the impression that he was ready to fail me at that point... though I could probably have prevailed by showing him the relevant entry in the AIM, I'm not sure he would have taken that well.
Click to expand...

I had that issue on my multi check ride. He insisted that the fuel capacity was about 10-20 gallons less than what I answered. He relented when I showed him the amount I answered coincided with what was in the POH. This DPE was also my glider instructor, so we both took it well.
 
mondtster said:
One thing that seems to be getting lost here is that it appears that all the commenters took their checkrides under the PTS not the new ACS. One commenter casually mentioned it, but it is worth mentioning again that under the new ACS the examiners are obligated ask questions about the missed written test questions. Because of this new rule, I would say that the higher you score on the written the easier your checkride will go.
Click to expand...
That I did not know, thanks for pointing it out. (I admit it is my fault because I did not care to familiarize myself with ACS since I do not intend to take another checkride anytime soon)
I understand the logic behind the rule and I fully support it. I myself went to both my checkrides prepared to prove that I have re-trained on the areas of deficiency from my written. And I was also prepared to discuss the one question that I failed and disagreed with (and my DPE agreed).
As long as we are competent and safe and are ready to prove it to the DPE, the checkride should be a no problem. And my last one was awesome, the DPE was a cool cargo ex-pilot, he knew a lot about icing and bad weather. :)
 
Someone revived the thread from 2013. Wheeee.

But anyway while we're here, the ACS did change the requirements and a DPE is required to ask scenario or other questions for every code missed on the written now, per the OKC seminar I attended via online last weekend.

^^ Some of the answers up there say the DPE never even looked at their answer codes missed. That will no longer apply.*

*For varying values of DPE compliance when there isn't a Fed watching them on the checkride. ;)
 
How would that even work? I mean, if you are good enough to purposely answer enough questions wrong to keep from too high a score, man...you could answer anything they asked you.

In the US is it even possible to know the questions ahead of time to memorize them? Here we get a bunch of sample exams, but they are just similar and not the same as on the exam. Also, if you did memorize the answers, I don't see that as being much different than knowing the answers. I mean, I study and "memorize" quite a bit from the ground school...some things you have to go deeper and think about but between that and flying experience it is kind of memorization anyway?

Maybe I'm missing the point.
 
There are or were 700+ questions in the pool, you couldn't remember them all, but you could remember the trick questions.
Instrument is another 700, generally considered the toughest of the writtens.
 
denverpilot said:
But anyway while we're here, the ACS did change the requirements and a DPE is required to ask scenario or other questions for every code missed on the written now, per the OKC seminar I attended via online last weekend.
Click to expand...

So, the trick for an easy oral is to miss a couple questions on topics that you have down cold?
 
LongRoadBob said:
In the US is it even possible to know the questions ahead of time to memorize them? Here we get a bunch of sample exams, but they are just similar and not the same as on the exam. Also, if you did memorize the answers, I don't see that as being much different than knowing the answers. I mean, I study and "memorize" quite a bit from the ground school...some things you have to go deeper and think about but between that and flying experience it is kind of memorization anyway?
Click to expand...
It's been reported that our test bank questions are no longer published, so you can't just memorize the answers. I don't know if that's true though, or if maybe it's true but the change hasn't been made yet.
 
azure said:
It's been reported that our test bank questions are no longer published, so you can't just memorize the answers. I don't know if that's true though, or if maybe it's true but the change hasn't been made yet.
Click to expand...

That's good to know and as it should be. I still think the brain power used to memorize everything would better be spent understanding and (as I've already experienced) concentrating on exactly what the questions are and answering best possible. I wouldn't even consider trying to dumb down my answers, I need all my brains to even possibly, hopefully get an ok score.

Also I want to be able to answer any (non bogus) questions. I want to know that I know. I have seen (keep in mind I am in Norway) in sample tests, bogus answers. One I can't recall now, two of the answers were both correct, I choose one and in the answer section they even lead with my answer, but still it was the other correct option that was "correct". I don't know how it is in the US, but when I brought this up with my club, they told me that they could and would contest marking that question wrong, if it made the difference between passing or not, and could "win".
 
Sorry to hear that you have bogus questions in the test bank too. That's the problem here as well, or at least it was, back in the 2012-3 time frame when I was finishing up my instrument rating. I used a lot of brain power making sure I understood everything I possibly could, but I knew the bank contained ridiculous questions that could not be figured out, so I also memorized the answers to those. On my last time through the IR written in 2012, there was one question like that, that was not in the published test bank, about how long IFR currency lasts. The answers that were not clearly wrong (and there were at least two of them) had vague, weasel-word kinds of wording that made it impossible to be sure either way about them. I think I understand the currency regs quite well and I still got that one wrong. So I'm not sure that not publishing the answers is "how it should be". It is, if the questions and possible answers are well formulated, but our government doesn't seem to be able to think up consistently good test questions. Sounds like yours is the same way, maybe it's just a government thing (ha!).
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
So, the trick for an easy oral is to miss a couple questions on topics that you have down cold?
Click to expand...

Haha I like the way you think. LOL!

azure said:
It's been reported that our test bank questions are no longer published, so you can't just memorize the answers. I don't know if that's true though, or if maybe it's true but the change hasn't been made yet.
Click to expand...

Haven't been public in 12 years or so.
 
denverpilot said:
Haven't been public in 12 years or so.
Click to expand...
Let me put it this way: it's been reported that they've revamped the test bank and are no longer using the old questions that were publicly available. They were certainly still using them for the IR written in 2012, since I recognized many of the questions when I took it that year.
 
Took the written and received a 92%. Had the Checkride 12 days later under the ACS and the questions were straightforward and I had no difficulty. I was surprised the oral was relatively short going through scenarios relating to route given to plan. New IR written focused a lot on approach plates and GPS questions. Oral focused on many areas covered in the written.
 
azure said:
Let me put it this way: it's been reported that they've revamped the test bank and are no longer using the old questions that were publicly available. They were certainly still using them for the IR written in 2012, since I recognized many of the questions when I took it that year.
Click to expand...

And many questions were the same under the "new" written I took after June 15.
 
For all the checkrides I've taken, all the people I've sent into checkrides, no one really cares about your written, it's the oral where knowledge is tested.

Written is more of a box to get checked off.
 
ja_user said:
Fact is, every DPE will ask you questions until you don't know something.
Click to expand...

Same for me with my PPL. I got a 93 on my written, examiner never brought it up. He was very thorough but fair with his questions, and just like you said, kept asking questions until I didn't know something, then turned it into a teaching opportunity.
 
You hear this sort of "logic" trying to be applied to things like GPAs. I once heard someone say a 3.9ish is the best GPA because it shows you are very smart but not afraid to take a few risks whereas a 4.0 means you were a book worm but didn't challenge yourself enough and likely didn't take enough risk. There's probably some truth to that (the one person I know that had a 4.0 in college took 'underwater basketweaving' type fluff classes to protect their GPA.)

As for the written, just do the best you can. So far as I've observed most DPEs are quite good at quickly determining if you know your **** or not. If they're comfortable that you know the material they're not going to waste their time or yours on an unnecessarily long oral.
 
Depends on DPE and the student.

I knew a kid who came over from Taiwan to get his PPL-CFI tickets. Kid had a 100% on his IR written, but could not answer any (even basic) questions. DPE sussed it out pretty quickly. Needless to say, oral did not go well.

My PPL written was around 77, iR was 90. Oral was about average for both.

Oh, and it was the same DPE.

So not sure where these myths come from..

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top