Trump pushing to privatize ATC

We are paying for ATC, currently, out of fuel taxes. However , as it is with most taxes, people that levy the tax forget we are already paying. Privatization can be as simple as Canada, where all GA pilots pay a yearly fee for access to most airports, to onerous like th European Union where you pay every time you land at an airport. These fees can be high and multiple, very expensive. I guess the "Devil" is in the details. (self serving cliche). In general , I tend not to favor privatization because the after mentioned reasons.

Cheers

You think a single penny of the fuel taxes will be rescinded if ATC is privatized? LOL. Not a snowball's chance in hell.

Contact your CongressCritter, express your opinion - it's the cheapest & best way to fight the battle. Unless, of course, your CongressCritter is Schuster or McConnell. Then you have a problem.

Congressmen represent 750,000 people. Senators roughly 3.2M. Let's be real clear... they truly don't represent you or give a jack about you.

Especially GA pilots. We don't even make a blip on their radar percentage-wise.

Seen AOPA or EAA denounce the Presidential budget yet? I know the thing is fiction, but usually the purveyors of fiction (lobbyists) at least know how to play along with the fake drama.

Personally I think things like free roads, free sidewalks, free public schools and free flying are a sign of a free society. Now I know, they aren't really free, they get paid for by taxes. But we tried all this toll road stuff years ago and have gradually, for good reason, moved to free (alright tax paid for) services. Not everything, but jeez. Who wants to go back to the old feudal system of private roads, private schools, even private armies. What is this 11th century Italy? Hey, lets charge our kids to play hopscotch on the sidewalk. I mean those sidewalks have to be paid for, ya know!

Right now in Colorado we need more money for roads. And I lot rather pay at the pump than stupid mickey mouse annoying tolls everywhere run by the mafia.

And then we gradually moved to not actually paying for those things but allowing politicians to move the money paid for those things elsewhere. You looked at the 20+ "fees" on the back of a Colorado Vehicle Registration lately?

Don't you also have private tolls on what used to be public roads? That **** ****es me right off, the gov't selling off the roads/bridges/whatever to private corps so they can collect tolls. The public paid for that road to be put in, not to be tolled to death.

Kicking in a few bucks to support the system? You know that money will be put right into a "general fund", right? It'll never go towards paying for the system... you know that, right?

This. Colorado already sold off multiple lanes to the toll road folks, and pretended to hold public meetings about it, while the toll equipment and signage were already lying in the ditches along US 36, ordered months before those meetings were held.

Their excuse? If they gave the toll road profits to the toll road company, the toll road company promised to maintain all of the other lanes.

Promises, promises. That'll never happen.

And let's not forget that all of the widening of our metro area highways has been accomplished by Eminent Domain.

I'm all for public roads. Fine by me. But Colorado isn't sending the taxes collected to roads, and then whines that they need to sell lanes to private toll companies to afford to maintain the other lanes. All without any public input, since they weren't going to send the massive sign posts lying in the ditches, and the LED signs back. There was no public meeting. That was just CDOT scrambling to make it look like there was.

This is as much about the airlines pushing more costs on GA, espcially turbine, and reducing access by GA in order to "encourage" corporate folks that fly GA now to fly airlines. The thinking is that they will be higher revenue passengers. Increased revenue, lower costs for the airlines.

From the ATC standpoint, the question the airlines ask is why each airplane is not charged the same amount for access to the ATC services when each takes about the same resources. An argument has also been made that slow GA takes more resources as they are in each sector for a longer period of time and should be charged more.

The airlines will cut off their noses in spite of their faces if they push this in the middle of a pilot shortage. Make GA more expensive, good luck finding kids who'll work for $30K their first year after paying money to fly every instrument approach. Keep lobbying for it, idiots. Shortsighted and stupid.

The airlines are forgetting that ATC llc. would only provide the absolute minimum service required, and would likely be staffed by close to minimum wage employees who can pass the required tests.
There aren't many ways to increase profit with higher productivity by experienced/skilled controllers, so there's no incentive to pay them much by the ATC llc. Certainly not as much as the FAA people make now. They earn every cent they make, but a privatized business would need to see return for investment from those people, and in ATC environment that's kinda hard.

ATC ain't broke, don't fix it.

Awww, you aren't looking forward to the high quality employee levels agencies like TSA have? C'mon! ;-) You attract only the best and brightest at $17/hr!
 
We are paying for ATC, currently, out of fuel taxes. However , as it is with most taxes, people that levy the tax forget we are already paying. Privatization can be as simple as Canada, where all GA pilots pay a yearly fee for access to most airports, to onerous like th European Union where you pay every time you land at an airport. These fees can be high and multiple, very expensive. I guess the "Devil" is in the details. (self serving cliche). In general , I tend not to favor privatization because the after mentioned reasons.

Cheers

You think a single penny of the fuel taxes will be rescinded if ATC is privatized? LOL. Not a snowball's chance in hell.

Contact your CongressCritter, express your opinion - it's the cheapest & best way to fight the battle. Unless, of course, your CongressCritter is Schuster or McConnell. Then you have a problem.

Congressmen represent 750,000 people. Senators roughly 3.2M. Let's be real clear... they truly don't represent you or give a jack about you.

Especially GA pilots. We don't even make a blip on their radar percentage-wise.

Seen AOPA or EAA denounce the Presidential budget yet? I know the thing is fiction, but usually the purveyors of fiction (lobbyists) at least know how to play along with the fake drama.

Personally I think things like free roads, free sidewalks, free public schools and free flying are a sign of a free society. Now I know, they aren't really free, they get paid for by taxes. But we tried all this toll road stuff years ago and have gradually, for good reason, moved to free (alright tax paid for) services. Not everything, but jeez. Who wants to go back to the old feudal system of private roads, private schools, even private armies. What is this 11th century Italy? Hey, lets charge our kids to play hopscotch on the sidewalk. I mean those sidewalks have to be paid for, ya know!

Right now in Colorado we need more money for roads. And I lot rather pay at the pump than stupid mickey mouse annoying tolls everywhere run by the mafia.

And then we gradually moved to not actually paying for those things but allowing politicians to move the money paid for those things elsewhere. You looked at the 20+ "fees" on the back of a Colorado Vehicle Registration lately?

Don't you also have private tolls on what used to be public roads? That **** ****es me right off, the gov't selling off the roads/bridges/whatever to private corps so they can collect tolls. The public paid for that road to be put in, not to be tolled to death.

Kicking in a few bucks to support the system? You know that money will be put right into a "general fund", right? It'll never go towards paying for the system... you know that, right?

This. Colorado already sold off multiple lanes to the toll road folks, and pretended to hold public meetings about it, while the toll equipment and signage were already lying in the ditches along US 36, ordered months before those meetings were held.

Their excuse? If they gave the toll road profits to the toll road company, the toll road company promised to maintain all of the other lanes.

Promises, promises. That'll never happen.

And let's not forget that all of the widening of our metro area highways has been accomplished by Eminent Domain.

I'm all for public roads. Fine by me. But Colorado isn't sending the taxes collected to roads, and then whines that they need to sell lanes to private toll companies to afford to maintain the other lanes. All without any public input, since they weren't going to send the massive sign posts lying in the ditches, and the LED signs back. There was no public meeting. That was just CDOT scrambling to make it look like there was.

This is as much about the airlines pushing more costs on GA, espcially turbine, and reducing access by GA in order to "encourage" corporate folks that fly GA now to fly airlines. The thinking is that they will be higher revenue passengers. Increased revenue, lower costs for the airlines.

From the ATC standpoint, the question the airlines ask is why each airplane is not charged the same amount for access to the ATC services when each takes about the same resources. An argument has also been made that slow GA takes more resources as they are in each sector for a longer period of time and should be charged more.

The airlines will cut off their noses in spite of their faces if they push this in the middle of a pilot shortage. Make GA more expensive, good luck finding kids who'll work for $30K their first year after paying money to fly every instrument approach. Keep lobbying for it, idiots. Shortsighted and stupid.

The airlines are forgetting that ATC llc. would only provide the absolute minimum service required, and would likely be staffed by close to minimum wage employees who can pass the required tests.
There aren't many ways to increase profit with higher productivity by experienced/skilled controllers, so there's no incentive to pay them much by the ATC llc. Certainly not as much as the FAA people make now. They earn every cent they make, but a privatized business would need to see return for investment from those people, and in ATC environment that's kinda hard.

ATC ain't broke, don't fix it.

Awww, you aren't looking forward to the high quality employee levels agencies like TSA have? C'mon! ;-) You attract only the best and brightest at $17/hr!
 
You guys that are "OK with some user fees" forget we ARE ALREADY PAYING...100ll and jet A is taxed to help pay for the FAA. Its like paying taxes/fees for roads and then driving on toll roads. IF that doesnt **** you off, it should. Thats how government works to slowly death grip all your money out in taxes and fees, a little here, a little there...
 
I don't mind kicking a few bucks into the system if that's what's needed. I'd just rather they do it by raising the existing AvGas tax rather than coming up with some new fee system. But no one wants to be the guy that voted for a tax increase, so that option isn't on the table.

Please don't be so weak.

I DO mind giving them more money, and I DO mind a cut in services.

If you ask any government entity, they always "need" more money, just like a kid always needs more candy.

I paid for a service, I demand that service, and don't try to charge me more, because there are 100 other people who would love your cush gov job.
 
Privatized tower is not the same as privatized ATC, only a small subset of it. It's the camel's nose under the tent. It's the first step in user fees. This is where the DOD will probably be GA's Best Friend. Looking at Schuster's perennial ATC Privatization plan, the DOD does NOT have a seat at the table.
The nose under the tent is ADS-B. Makes it almost too easy to run the meter. And they want you to buy the meter.
 
Please don't be so weak.

I DO mind giving them more money, and I DO mind a cut in services.

If you ask any government entity, they always "need" more money, just like a kid always needs more candy.

I paid for a service, I demand that service, and don't try to charge me more, because there are 100 other people who would love your cush gov job.
The federal avgas tax hasn't been raised since 1997. Inflation alone means that they are spending more to provide the same level of service, let alone investing in infrastructure upgrades. And I'd much rather they increase the tax than start collecting user fees.
 
Just curious; what is the worst case expected case for user fees? $50/year? $1,000/year?

Personally, I don't see a problem with reasonable user fees. But I think they should be levied on much more than ATC though.
Once the door is open there is no limit on the fees. What are you going to do, vote the self-selected BoD out of office?

I just received notice that the premium on my private long-term-care policy is going to double to an unaffordable level, so I will get out. That is by their design. They are not concerned about losing a private customer because their commercial policy holders will just pay it (assuming of course that the large policy holders are getting the same increase, which I doubt.)

ACA "compliant" policies have doubled in cost and halved, or worse, in benefits.

What will it take for people to realize that once the door is cracked open it takes nothing to push it wide open?
 
This is as much about the airlines pushing more costs on GA, espcially turbine, and reducing access by GA in order to "encourage" corporate folks that fly GA now to fly airlines. The thinking is that they will be higher revenue passengers. Increased revenue, lower costs for the airlines.

From the ATC standpoint, the question the airlines ask is why each airplane is not charged the same amount for access to the ATC services when each takes about the same resources. An argument has also been made that slow GA takes more resources as they are in each sector for a longer period of time and should be charged more.

I ran the calculator on NavCanada's site and determined that a similar system would add 5 - 8% to the cost to operate the Conquest. Not good at all, but not nearly enough to encourage me to go back to the spam can. Put another way, it is less than if Jet-A went up $1/gal.
 
With fees, its not so much the money, its the AGGRAVATION! Grrrr. Another bill to pay. And if you just put it all on the credit card automatically and ignore it. Well, I just can't.
 
Privatized tower is not the same as privatized ATC, only a small subset of it. It's the camel's nose under the tent. It's the first step in user fees. This is where the DOD will probably be GA's Best Friend. Looking at Schuster's perennial ATC Privatization plan, the DOD does NOT have a seat at the table.

I don't think ATC privatization can be called the first step in user fees. If anyone is good at adding on fees for things that are supposed to be paid for by taxes, its the government. You should see the fees on my water/garbage collection bill.

I'm in the "if it aint broke, don't fix it" camp on this. But I don't think privatization would hurt anything so long as there are no user fees.
 
The problem for GA is we get more from the FAA then we pay in. Everyone keeps throwing around the av gas fuel tax, but that only amounts to $25 million a year. The FAA spent almost $600 million on grants for GA only airports last year. Where did the rest of the money come from? Airlines and their passengers. If the airlines get to control the budget, GA is going to lose, even if it is simply the airlines want the money they generate to be spent only on projects/services benefiting them.
 
The nose under the tent is ADS-B. Makes it almost too easy to run the meter. And they want you to buy the meter.

ADS-B also has some benefits from an infrastructure perspective, especially in terms of allowing better approaches. This mostly impacts turbine aircraft (really jets). We still have to buy the meter since we operate in the same airspace.

Personally I don't have an issue so much with requiring people to ADS-B equipment. It's much like a Mode C transponder in terms of who actually needs it, and thus a lot of aircraft won't need it. I probably won't put a transponder in a Zenith 750 if I ever build one to fly out of our property, for example.

Where I do have an issue is if they start charging people for every flight because they can identify you, even if you're squawking 1200.
 
Where I do have an issue is if they start charging people for every flight because they can identify you, even if you're squawking 1200.
That is a real issue with me too.
Turn the battery master on, pay the government.
 
Privatization can mean many different things, and details matter. They could go to charging a small fee per year for GA aircraft under a certain weight, or they could do something else, like landing and segment fees. I think they way they get money now, through fuel taxes, is the most efficient, as far as collection goes. No need to make the system more complicated.
 
The federal avgas tax hasn't been raised since 1997. Inflation alone means that they are spending more to provide the same level of service, let alone investing in infrastructure upgrades. And I'd much rather they increase the tax than start collecting user fees.

Seems like ATC still is a coveted job and radars arnt catching on fire left and right, seems they have enough money, all else fails just chop some administration off.
 
This is nothing new...Obama was trying for it as well. I don't want to see it regardless but I have a feeling it will eventually happen. And when it does I feel safety will decrease which is not good. I can also see if it happens the value of our GA planes will drop and will be hard to sell.

I hadn't seen it yet but my coworkers told me they are also trying to pull federal funding for small airports. If that is true smaller airports will start drying up in time and add that to user fees and we will finally have the Death of GA which is what the gov and airlines want. But hey Drones will be free to move around..pfft!
 
If GA dies, the flight training industry dies, and the supply of 1500-hour pilots to replace retiring airline pilots dries up.
 
If GA dies, the flight training industry dies, and the supply of 1500-hour pilots to replace retiring airline pilots dries up.
Airlines will fund the future pilots they need through big school houses when GA dies. If they don't create flight training in house...
 
Airlines will fund the future pilots they need through big school houses when GA dies. If they don't create flight training in house...
Using what airports?
 
Using what airports?

I would guess the larger class D and C airports. 135 operations and corporate aviation will still be going. Just us small guys who cant afford it and the small Podunk airports will be gone. That's just my thought and im usually wrong so...hahahaha So ill take that back..GA wont be dead it will still be there but us small peeps in our bug smashers that fly for fun and travel will be out unless you have tons of money to burn.
 
I would guess the larger class D and C airports. 135 operations and corporate aviation will still be going. Just us small guys who cant afford it and the small Podunk airports will be gone. That's just my thought and im usually wrong so...hahahaha So ill take that back..GA wont be dead it will still be there but us small peeps in our bug smashers that fly for fun and travel will be out unless you have tons of money to burn.

Nah, just turn your xponder off. Im kidding, i think. Lol
 
Nah, just turn your xponder off. Im kidding, i think. Lol

I bet it will happen more than we know if this comes to head...Hmm....file a flight plan and get a bill to climb through that layer...nah txp off and punch through. I really see stuff like that happening if this really become true.
 
Hi everyone.

By Not having GA use ATC services, if they start charging, will impact everyone, not only GA. It is very likely that the accident rate will go up, for the GA, and the commercial flights are likely to be delayed, in busy areas, by not having the GA aircraft under ATC control.
Possibility exists that some collisions between commercial and GA are likely to occur.

As commercial operations / companies are finding out, GA is good for them also, they are now looking to pay $70-100,000.00 to train their own pilots.
 
I agree with you about the accident rates and safety. But who do you think is pushing for user fees?? The big companies!
 
Any user fee should be based upon the passenger mile. watch how fast the airlines will get it shut down.
 
Unless he has the balls to use the line item veto

Well, so long as we still have courts, that isn't going to happen with any success, regardless of the body parts involved.

There was a short-lived law that allowed this practice, but it was ruled unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court in 1998.
 
The federal avgas tax hasn't been raised since 1997. Inflation alone means that they are spending more to provide the same level of service, let alone investing in infrastructure upgrades. And I'd much rather they increase the tax than start collecting user fees.

I'd say GA use of "services" has remained flat since 1997, or even fallen, and the FAA themselves proved it with the mandatory re-registration numbers. They went down. Significantly.

With fees, its not so much the money, its the AGGRAVATION! Grrrr. Another bill to pay. And if you just put it all on the credit card automatically and ignore it. Well, I just can't.

Same here. Anyone with a *written* budget doesn't unless they have plenty of wiggle room in said budget. And they didn't get there by ignoring where dollars go. Or guessing what prices for things will be.

ADS-B also has some benefits from an infrastructure perspective, especially in terms of allowing better approaches. This mostly impacts turbine aircraft (really jets). We still have to buy the meter since we operate in the same airspace.

Wasn't there only ONE location where this was tried in the real world (Fedex) and the study said it added zero benefit. Let's be honest about the "better approaches" aspect. Even if it helps in a handful of locations, we're talking tiny benefits here mostly aimed at shippers who can actually see a benefit from a 1% faster arrival rate. The vast majority of GA can't. Charge those who gain from it for the full price to get their 1%. Not everyone.
 
Not just UK but all of Europe. I'd say the U.K. Is actually the best off in regards to GA. Germany is dead. Unless you're wealthy, you aren't flying GA in Germany. About all they can afford are sailplanes. A lot are winch launched because the scarcity of SE tows.

When I was there, you had widespread areas of non radar over Europe. Many rundown airports with little or no IAPs. Flew into one international airport (Mostar) and they had only an NDB approach. I'm sure things are better now but nowhere in the world do you have an ATC system and a GA community as strong as we have here.
 
From wikipedia:
"the general aviation industry "includes nearly 600,000 pilots, employs roughly 1.3 million people, and contributes approximately $150 billion annually to the U.S. economy.""

Reading this it doesn't sound so bad economically speaking.. I mean $150 billion for such a small fraction of users...why let it go. If these figures are accurate.
 
From wikipedia:
"the general aviation industry "includes nearly 600,000 pilots, employs roughly 1.3 million people, and contributes approximately $150 billion annually to the U.S. economy.""

Reading this it doesn't sound so bad economically speaking.. I mean $150 billion for such a small fraction of users...why let it go. If these figures are accurate.
I think they might be referring to aviation in general, not general aviation, since there are only about 600,000 pilots total, according to this FAA document.
Screen Shot 2017-03-18 at 09.11.37.png
 
And BIG R/C models.

Oh yeah, they're popular as well. I flew some R/C planes when I was stationed there. Bunch of restrictions on what, where and freqs to fly there.

Checked on getting my sailplane rating there. I recall, you had to pass a German language test. Costs were almost double you'd pay in the states.
 
I would guess the larger class D and C airports....
It seems to me that the only airports that would survive would be the ones that had enough airline traffic to support them. Doing all flight training at airports with that much airline traffic doesn't sound very practical. I also wonder if the airlines really want to pay to train pilots from scratch. And I doubt that non-airline commercial operators could afford to do it.
 
A good friend of mine lives in OKC and was asked to be part of a working group discussing privatization. He told me when we were discussing this the other night, that the issue of fees and the exact amounts were a major topic. He said that a GA plane in Canada pays $68/year and only pays for IFR services at certain major airports on a usage basis. He said that one of the ideas was to charge X amount for an IFR flight plan and X for a VFR flight plan ($10 and $5) and pointed out that when the amount of flights filing VFR flight plans would raise XXX dollars per year AND that the FAA likes for people to file VFR flight plans, that most VFR pilots would just not file thus losing that revenue stream and the safety factor. It was then discussed what about flight following? He said the discussion broke down over this issue and if they would charge each flight then. Very complicated system

ME, MYSELF and I personally would not oppose a single payment per year, PROVIDED I was entitled to full service for VFR and or Flight Following. But if I choose to ask for and receive flight following then I, for that yearly fee, would expect not to hear "Squawk VFR, radar service terminated".
As with all thing governmental, it will be slow and it will be messed up and most likely it will be an attachment to another bill.

Hey folks, there is a real pilot shortage so lets make it harder for people to come into the business and for the airlines just to develop their own training factories. Why you may ask when flying in certain areas of the country that you hear so many foreign accents at the locations of the big schools? My opinion is that GA is practically non-existent in their countries so they come here to learn.

We are FREE here...lets not mess it up please.
 
This comes up as a proposal with every budget. I'm reminded of Dean Wormer's quote "every year the trees are covered in toilet paper. Every year the toilets explode".

There just seems to be more toilet paper this go 'round.
 
If GA dies, the flight training industry dies, and the supply of 1500-hour pilots to replace retiring airline pilots dries up.

Europe is moving toward the multi-crew pilot license -- only 35 hours of flight time in a actual aircraft, the rest of the training is in a simulator (minimum 240 hours total) then direct to the right seat of a 737/A320/etc. I've seen reports that pilots can go zero to right seat in under a year.
 
This comes up as a proposal with every budget. I'm reminded of Dean Wormer's quote "every year the trees are covered in toilet paper. Every year the toilets explode".

There just seems to be more toilet paper this go 'round.
Things are very, very different this year
 
Europe is moving toward the multi-crew pilot license -- only 35 hours of flight time in a actual aircraft, the rest of the training is in a simulator (minimum 240 hours total) then direct to the right seat of a 737/A320/etc. I've seen reports that pilots can go zero to right seat in under a year.
Congress seems to think that 1500-hour pilots are safer than 240-hour pilots. I tend to agree. I also think that the 1500-hour rule makes it less likely for suicidal pilots like Andreas Lubitz to survive long enough to get into the cockpit of an airliner.

Now we just need to convince Congress that GA is necessary in order to provide a supply of 1500-hour pilots.
 
...The airlines will cut off their noses in spite of their faces if they push this in the middle of a pilot shortage. Make GA more expensive, good luck finding kids who'll work for $30K their first year after paying money to fly every instrument approach. Keep lobbying for it, idiots. Shortsighted and stupid...

The airlines will set up their own training academies or contract out to support the creation of pilot-mills. This is how the SE Asian airlines are dealing with their rapid growth, and Europe seems to be moving that way too. Train for purpose in specific aircraft types. A generation of computer systems operators.

That's how events like AF-447 happen...
 
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