Trip to LEX

[flyingcheesehead]

I took my second trip to Lexington, KY this weekend. When I did it the first time (2 years ago) it was a really big deal! (It was my first >100nm trip.) Now, doing it the second time and after flying to Gaston's and Houston this summer, the trip felt routine. Cool! The best part was that the flight down took under 3 hours as opposed to the 9 or so it takes driving. Sweet.

I did have a big first on this trip, though... First time doing the Chicago lakeshore route! We just got our Garmin 430 upgraded with Terrain awareness, and it went nuts. Pretty cool.

A snowstorm chased me out of MSN (which was part of the reason I headed east and did the lakeshore). Vis sucked (4-5 mi) for the first few minutes of the flight, but around Fort Atkinson it cleared right up. Well, cleared right up into a 6500-foot overcast anyway.

I punched in direct UGN, direct GYY, direct LEX and for the most part followed that route. I deviated somewhat on the lakeshore portion of the trip. I stayed down at 3500 after takeoff. At UGN I began a descent to 2000 for the lakeshore route. The only traffic I saw at all was airliners going over my head, so I snapped some pictures.

Near GYY I initiated a climb to 5500. Man, I love winter flying!!! Light and cold, I was getting 105 KIAS and 1600 fpm for my cruise climb. The remainder of the flight was pretty much routine. I did notice what appeared to be an abandoned airfield right in the middle of R-3403 (IIRC, the one just west of Cincinnati). Weird.

For the return trip, I took a light load of TAC-Air's $4.19 fuel and jumped over to KBMG to tank up on their $2.74 fuel. The weather wasn't as good as it was supposed to be, I spent most of this leg at 3500 and even had to descend to 2900 for a bit.

After KBMG I started out once again at 3500. I knew it was clear (well, 25,000 overcast, close enough) at Madison, so when I spotted a big blue hole near Terre Haute I climbed through it. The clouds didn't look as thick as they really were, I was expecting to climb only to 6500 but the tops turned out to be around 7200 so I went to 8500. My gray dreary day became a wonderful, sunny, glad-I'm-a-pilot day.

I got some good photos of the sun setting. That made me a bit nervous since there was still a solid undercast, but I managed to pick up the Rockford ATIS which was reporting clear. Sure enough, as the light crept from the sky, the undercast retreated below me to reveal the lights of Rockford. The odd, dusky lighting made it look hazy, but I could easily see Rockford, Beloit, and Janesville right away, and I could see Madison by the time I crossed the state line. That's greater than 50 miles visibility! Did I mention that I love winter flying? (Smooth as glass, too...)

Photos below:
#3 Downtown Chicago from the North
#2 Departing airline traffic over the city
#1 G430 terrain warning page approaching the city
#4,5,6 more shots of downtown
#7 FU mayor daley. RIP, KCGX. (Note that the control tower is still standing...)
#8 Kentucky state capitol building in Frankfort
#9 Sunset over the top

 

[spiderweb]

Ah . . . so sweet. . . .

 

[jesse]

Hmm. nothing personal.. but I don't think i'd make a habit out of VFR-on-top without an instrument ticket.

Just because you found a hole to go up, doesn't mean you'll find one to go back down in. I really wouldn't trust the weather reports on the other side being your way down. Plus if you have a problem enroute you are screwed, and have to admit to ATC what you've done.


I understand that you are close to your instrument ticket, but that doesn't mean you have it. similar to a student pilot right before the checkride taking friends up.
just my opinion though.

 

[Richard]

...The weather wasn't as good as it was supposed to be...

No, the wx WAS as it was supposed to be. It was the forecast that wasn't as good as it was supposed to be.

Kent, I'm glad you had a swell trip and I appreciate your good write-up with nice pictures.

 

[spiderweb]

I had forgotten that Kent isn't rated yet. I agree with this, but just for me. I never would go up through a hole. But I don't see anything wrong with a non-rated pilot doing this as long as s/he had a few outs. I wouldn't have done it, but I am ultra-conservative.

In Kent's area, there's a lot of IMC, so one has to make a choice. Actually, the thing that would concern me more than IMC is the icing and lake-effect snow.

Hmm. nothing personal.. but I don't think i'd make a habit out of VFR-on-top without an instrument ticket.

Just because you found a hole to go up, doesn't mean you'll find one to go back down in. I really wouldn't trust the weather reports on the other side being your way down. Plus if you have a problem enroute you are screwed, and have to admit to ATC what you've done.

. . .

 

[jesse]

I had forgotten that Kent isn't rated yet. I agree with this, but just for me. I never would go up through a hole. But I don't see anything wrong with a non-rated pilot doing this as long as s/he had a few outs. I wouldn't have done it, but I am ultra-conservative.

I can't really ever see it being a good option. Things will close up quick on you.

What's your out when you are enroute over solid overcast? Nothing. Your out is the weather reports on teh other side. It might close up before you get there, it might not.

Either way it seems like quite the risk to take.

I'm pretty sure the FAA agrees with me when it comes to on the vfr-on-top without an instrument rating. But I might be wrong.

 

[spiderweb]

I can't really ever see it being a good option. Things will close up quick on you.

Not always. You have to look closely at the weather.

What's your out when you are enroute over solid overcast? Nothing. Your out is the weather reports on teh other side. It might close up before you get there, it might not.

Either way it seems like quite the risk to take. This is why one has to be quite careful with the preflight planning.

Again, in principle I agree with you. I usually wouldn't purposefully climb up through a hole, for example. If, however, the clouds were associated with a passing front and I knew that it was clear on the other side, it might change my mind. Now that I have the IR, though, I always file.

I'm pretty sure the FAA agrees with me when it comes to on the vfr-on-top without an instrument rating. But I might be wrong.

I think you have to clarify what you mean by "the FAA agrees with me."

 

[EdFred]

I'm pretty sure the FAA agrees with me when it comes to on the vfr-on-top without an instrument rating. But I might be wrong.

Well, technically, yes, the FAA does agree with you. Since VFR-on-top is actually part of an IFR clearance. You can't file/fly IFR w/o the IR. However, what Kent did was VFR-over-the-top, in which case the FAA only agrees with you in one case - student pilots.

 

[jesse]

Well, technically, yes, the FAA does agree with you. Since VFR-on-top is actually part of an IFR clearance. You can't file/fly IFR w/o the IR. However, what Kent did was VFR-over-the-top, in which case the FAA only agrees with you in one case - student pilots.

Gotcha. I remember reading something about this and might have misinterpeted it.

Basically from what I understand there is nothing that says you can't, but the FAA won't really give a solid answer on it being legal or not.

I'm sure if something were to happen as a result of VFR over the top, the FAA would still try to eat you up..or at least make your life very difficult for awhile.

Perhaps some of you have more trust in your planes. I personally don't trust anything that I rent. The reason for this is, I find at least one thing or more broken on every flight. I find myself looking at the engine gauges about every 20 seconds now. Sometimes what breaks might be critical; sometimes it might be something that doesn't effect my operations. Othertimes I've had a list for the mechanic with about 10 items that took several weeks to fix.

I've had scenarios where I'm sure i could have went over the top and been fine. But instead I chose to sleep at some tiny airport in some really crappy building for about 12 hours for it to blow through. Was extremely late for work, had no cell signal and couldn't call them. But you know what? I didn't regret it.

It just all comes down to the level of risk that we are willing to accept. That is one I won't accept. Though perhaps one that will accept this risk, won't do something that I would do. Plus I'm too young to kill myself

It's all just a matter of checks and balances, hopefully you don't get too out of balance

 

[wsuffa]

I can't really ever see it being a good option. Things will close up quick on you.

What's your out when you are enroute over solid overcast? Nothing. Your out is the weather reports on teh other side. It might close up before you get there, it might not.

Either way it seems like quite the risk to take.

I'm pretty sure the FAA agrees with me when it comes to on the vfr-on-top without an instrument rating. But I might be wrong.

You have to understand the weather carefully. But it can be done very safely.

Back before I got my IR, at a tender 100 hours or so, I was willing to climb up under certain circumstances.

Here's a example. Early departure on a Saturday AM out of Cincinnati bound for Winchester, VA. Morning haze and lots of low clouds over West Virginia. I was over the top from about 20 miles after departure. As the sun came up, the low clouds and haze burned off. Within about 90 minutes, it was perfectly clear everywhere except a few mountain valleys. Now I did climb up as high as I could get that old 172RG (meaning 10K or so), giving me plenty of gliding room.

Forecasts are not always accurate, but I was quite familiar with typical conditions, the forecasts, and the accuracy of the forecast over the prior few days.

 

[jesse]

You have to understand the weather carefully. But it can be done very safely.

Back before I got my IR, at a tender 100 hours or so, I was willing to climb up under certain circumstances.

Here's a example. Early departure on a Saturday AM out of Cincinnati bound for Winchester, VA. Morning haze and lots of low clouds over West Virginia. I was over the top from about 20 miles after departure. As the sun came up, the low clouds and haze burned off. Within about 90 minutes, it was perfectly clear everywhere except a few mountain valleys. Now I did climb up as high as I could get that old 172RG (meaning 10K or so), giving me plenty of gliding room.

Forecasts are not always accurate, but I was quite familiar with typical conditions, the forecasts, and the accuracy of the forecast over the prior few days.

What bothers me. Isn't that I know I can get to the other side. It's that if something happens when I'm sitting here completely vulnerable.
For example, engine gets rough. Here you are with no place to land everywhere you look because it's just clouds. Your not IFR, you are not eqiupped to deal with this. So now what.. Hopefully at this point you'll tell ATC what you got yourself into. It's not going to be much fun though.

Like the FAA said. The problem with VFR over the top is you have no out. If you have a failure your only option is to deviate from the FARs. You'll have to declare an emergency for this and the FSDO is going to have a field day with you.

 

[wsuffa]

What bothers me. Isn't that I know I can get to the other side. It's that if something happens when I'm sitting here completely vulnerable.
For example, engine gets rough. Here you are with no place to land everywhere you look because it's just clouds. Your not IFR, you are not eqiupped to deal with this. So now what.. Hopefully at this point you'll tell ATC what you got yourself into. It's not going to be much fun though.

Like the FAA said. The problem with VFR over the top is you have no out. If you have a failure your only option is to deviate from the FARs. You'll have to declare an emergency for this and the FSDO is going to have a field day with you.

One may or may not have an out, depending on a lot of factors. Example: flying over valley fog is technically flying over the top. But both sides may be well beyond gliding range.

I'm willing to avoid a blanket statement and make the call based on conditions at the time. You may view it differently. Always OK to be more conservative, and I won't argue if you make that choice. There are circumstances where over the top can be perfectly safe, and other times where it will not be.

Having said all that, I do have my IR - and I use it all the time.

 

[Richard]

Basically from what I understand there is nothing that says you can't, but the FAA won't really give a solid answer on it being legal or not.

Lack of ruling does not preclude the legality of the act. More explicitly, following common law, a lack of prohibition is a legal inference that the act is in fact legal.

I'm sure if something were to happen as a result of VFR over the top, the FAA would still try to eat you up..or at least make your life very difficult for awhile.

Do you mean to imply that flying in such a condition is careless and reckless? If something were to happen, regardless (irregardless for Diana) of the conditions there would probably bring on the FAA/NTSB.

Perhaps some of you have more trust in your planes.

Along with that is trust in one's skill and knowledge of the route of flight. I made note of what Kent had written and chose to not comment on it in my earlier post because I would have done it too but with a caveat. The caveat is I am comfortable with my familiarity of the terrain and local ATC pratices. The only thing in Kent's post that made me uncomfortable was he had mentioned the wx was worse than forecast and still he made the go decision. When things start to differ significantly from the forecast it is a wake-up call to me and always prompts the question; since something changed, what else changed and by how much?

I personally don't trust anything that I rent.

I think trust in my skills and being familiar with the terrain trumps any trust in the a/c. I'm not gonna' let an a/c otherwise suitable for the intended flight limit how I fly. I avoid the corners of the box but that is a function of my capabilites not those of the a/c.

I've had scenarios where I'm sure i could have went over the top and been fine. But instead I chose to sleep at some tiny airport in some really crappy building for about 12 hours for it to blow through. Was extremely late for work, had no cell signal and couldn't call them. But you know what? I didn't regret it.

You made the correct decision for that time. And you didn't let external pressures sway your decision--good job. That does not imply that that same decision will be the best one next time in similar conditions. However, that past experience goes into your bag and may be used to influence future decisions.

It just all comes down to the level of risk that we are willing to accept. That is one I won't accept. Though perhaps one that will accept this risk, won't do something that I would do. Plus I'm too young to kill myself

It's all just a matter of checks and balances, hopefully you don't get too out of balance [/quote]

 

[jesse]

Well. I don't ever see a reason as to why the risk would outweigh the benefit doing this VFR.

It doesn't really matter how much you trust your skills. A superior pilot will use their superior judgement instead of their superior skills.

When you go VFR over the top, you no longer know what the ceiling is below you. Sure you can bust out your AWOS/ASOS as you are coming down and look at your sectional, cross your fingers, and hope ATC can save you. But I'm just going to avoid that.

I absolutely refuse to put myself in a situation to where I have no outs. VFR over the top is a perfect example of not having an out.

We've pretty much beat this debate dead. We'll all have different opinions. Really all you can do is make sure you understand the risk, and make your decision from there.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Kent:

Those are great pics and a great write up; thanks for sharing this. The Garmin is a wonderful piece of equipment, isn't it? Have you started using the nearest features where you highlight the nearest VOR, select it, and it automatically tunes it in for you? How 'bout the approach section.

I'm glad you're enjoying things.

Best,

Dave

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The biggest auto-merged mess of a post, ever.

The Garmin is a wonderful piece of equipment, isn't it? Have you started using the nearest features where you highlight the nearest VOR, select it, and it automatically tunes it in for you? How 'bout the approach section.

It sure is a great tool. These long trips allow some extra time to play around and get to know it better as well. I used the NRST pages extensively, especially while I was on top, to maintain good SA. I also use the Nav 1-3 pages quite a bit (Nav3 on ours being the Terrain page).

That terrain upgrade was well worth it. Only $600, which is roughly what I spent for the trip! We got on the list for the $1500 WAAS upgrade whenever it ships too.

When's your next trip to WI? We should get together again.

Hmm. nothing personal.. but I don't think i'd make a habit out of VFR-on-top without an instrument ticket.

Just because you found a hole to go up, doesn't mean you'll find one to go back down in. I really wouldn't trust the weather reports on the other side being your way down. Plus if you have a problem enroute you are screwed, and have to admit to ATC what you've done.


I understand that you are close to your instrument ticket, but that doesn't mean you have it.

Jesse,

I don't make a habit of it - I've only done it a handful of times, and never when there was much of a doubt about being able to get back down. The first time I did it I was somewhat nervous - It's hard to trust that weather report when there's solid undercast as far as the eye can see - But I had the assistance of Kath in the right seat and a split-com PS Engineering audio panel. She checked the weather in front of us which was very reassuring. I also did a large portion of my flight to Gaston's and Houston this summer over the top. The risks were slightly different that time as I was up to 12,500 for part of the flight (no 02 on board) and there was a lot of room beneath the clouds; this time there wasn't so much beneath the clouds but I had several thousand feet to climb if needed to avoid IMC.

However, I was on flight following and heard several pireps being given so I had a pretty good picture of where the tops were around me in addition to knowing the forecasts and monitoring things for the entire trip.

similar to a student pilot right before the checkride taking friends up. just my opinion though.

Not similar at all. That is a clear violation of 14 CFR 61.89(a)(1). A student pilot going VFR over the top violates 14 CFR 61.89(a)(7), but as a certificated pilot it is perfectly legal.

I can't really ever see it being a good option. Things will close up quick on you.

Had it been a matter of a hole over my destination airport and banking on that being there when I arrived, I wouldn't have gone up. However, I reviewed the weather extensively from both a "micro" and "macro" perspective prior to departure, and I knew that even if Madison was overcast, I'd be able to fly past Madison either to the north or the west and find clear skies.

What's your out when you are enroute over solid overcast? Nothing. Your out is the weather reports on teh other side. It might close up before you get there, it might not.

Nothing? I always have an out. My first out: An airplane that carries six hours of fuel, and the extensive weather review as noted above to be absolutely sure there was plenty of VFR weather surrounding the destination.

My second out: Yes, I am close to my rating. If a huge system somehow managed to appear out of nowhere despite every forecast and observation (yes, I was listening to many of the available weather broadcasts during the flight) and got me stuck on top despite the 3+ hour fuel reserve, I would have declared an emergency. Wx underneath the overcast was still VFR (bases around 4000-4500 MSL and vis P6SM for the entire route) so it would have been vectors to VFR below, most likely. If the weather got even worse and I had to shoot an ILS, I am quite confident in my ability to do so in an emergency situation, or I wouldn't have gone on top.

In fact, that reminds me of the first time I took this trip two years ago. My mother (an ex-ER nurse, which makes her VERY protective!) was afraid I was going to have an accident. I told her I'd ask at least two flight instructors whether they thought the flight was a good idea. They both answered in the affirmative, but one first asked this question: "If the weather got bad in a hurry, would you be able to control the airplane in IMC well enough to fly an ILS approach and survive if you had to?" The answer to that question was, and remains, "Yes."

I'm pretty sure the FAA agrees with me when it comes to on the vfr-on-top without an instrument rating. But I might be wrong.

Please provide references to support this. I've never heard of such a thing. If they don't want us to do it, wouldn't it be in the FAR's?

I'm sure if something were to happen as a result of VFR over the top, the FAA would still try to eat you up..or at least make your life very difficult for awhile.

I think that since I exercised due diligence and then some in my pre-flight planning WRT weather, I'd have a perfectly good explanation if something did go wrong. Nothing illegal, nothing careless/reckless.

Perhaps some of you have more trust in your planes. I personally don't trust anything that I rent.

This was a club plane, not a rental. Not quite as good as having your own, but I trust it more than a rental. I have probably around 40 hours in that bird (out of my roughly 240 total), all in 2005 (I have around 130 hours in so far this year). It just had its annual done recently, this was its fourth flight after the annual. (I also flew the first and third.) So, I had a more-than-sufficient level of trust in the plane for this type of operation.

The reason for this is, I find at least one thing or more broken on every flight. I find myself looking at the engine gauges about every 20 seconds now.

Funny how that works, isn't it (the gauge watching, I mean)? My CFII has gotten me to pay attention to certain things in the same manner. For instance, failing everything except the airspeed indicator and mag compass makes you realize just how much good information you can get from the ASI. Later on that same flight, that came in very handy as we had a rare carb-ice encounter (Piper Dakota) that I caught via a loss of about two knots on the ASI before any engine roughness became apparent.

Along with that is trust in one's skill and knowledge of the route of flight. I made note of what Kent had written and chose to not comment on it in my earlier post because I would have done it too but with a caveat. The caveat is I am comfortable with my familiarity of the terrain and local ATC pratices.

Hmmm... Terrain in that area consists of flat, flat, and more flat! Plus, as noted before, the G430 in that plane now has terrain alerting as well.

What "local ATC practices" would affect your decision whether or not to go over the top?

The only thing in Kent's post that made me uncomfortable was he had mentioned the wx was worse than forecast and still he made the go decision.

I should have clarified that "worse than forecast" was only about a 300-foot drop in the forecast ceilings from the night before to the morning of, and nothing else about the forecast changed significantly. The observed ceilings the day of the flight remained true to the forecasts and there was nothing in the forecasts that indicated worsening conditions.

Basically, the weather was such that I could have gone either under the scud or over the top. Frankly, I think I made the safer decision - Underneath it was darker, visibility was worse (still easily VFR, but not nearly the 50+ miles on top!) and who knows how many other scud-runners were out? Over the top I had much better likelihood of being in radar contact to enable traffic advisories, plus the better visibility would allow me to spot other traffic more easily myself as well. And, of course, there was hardly any traffic on top at 8,500. OK, I saw one airliner about 20-30 miles away headed for ORD and got exactly zero traffic calls up there.

What bothers me. Isn't that I know I can get to the other side. It's that if something happens when I'm sitting here completely vulnerable.
For example, engine gets rough. Here you are with no place to land everywhere you look because it's just clouds.

If the prop stops... Well, you're hosed whether you're rated or not. Should we never fly over the top or in IMC? The course of action would not be any different in either case (IR or not). Emergency checklist, and ask for help. You're gonna need it.

 

[jesse]

Re: The biggest auto-merged mess of a post, ever.

If the prop stops... Well, you're hosed whether you're rated or not. Should we never fly over the top or in IMC? The course of action would not be any different in either case (IR or not). Emergency checklist, and ask for help. You're gonna need it.

IMHO. No we should not ever fly over the top of a SOLID overcast VFR.

I'll do a scattered layer, but I am all over watching it. I've also only done it once, I'm more comfortable down low. But that is something I've grown very used to in my life. I'm also confident if I have to that I can land my plane in a field and sleep the night out. That said I still won't go less than 6SM and 2000 AGL ceiling.

I'm all about keeping a clean slate with the FAA. I really do not want to put myself in a situation to where my only out in an emergency is going to have a very large amount of paperwork.

I've declared an emergency once in my first 100 hours. It's something I'd rather avoid if I could.

Like I said we all have different opinions of what is dangerous and what isn't. Who is right? .. No one, thats the beauty

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Kent:
I'll be up this weekend, weather permitting for one of my niece's birthdays (she'll be 16). Don't know if I can break free though. It's a long flight up on Friday. Saturday we have lots of plans. Sunday would be my only option, perhaps a stop somewhere before headin back.

I really need to come up early sometime so I can work in a better visit. Problem is, when the girls are in school, I can only see them Friday night and Saturday; wind up flying home on Sunday. I'd like to see several folks up thata way!!

Dave

 

[gismo]

Kent:
I'll be up this weekend, weather permitting for one of my niece's birthdays (she'll be 16). Don't know if I can break free though. It's a long flight up on Friday. Saturday we have lots of plans. Sunday would be my only option, perhaps a stop somewhere before headin back.

I really need to come up early sometime so I can work in a better visit. Problem is, when the girls are in school, I can only see them Friday night and Saturday; wind up flying home on Sunday. I'd like to see several folks up thata way!!

Dave

It just so happens that I need to be in Madison this coming Saturday. Staying over for Sunday might be an option.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

It just so happens that I need to be in Madison this coming Saturday. Staying over for Sunday might be an option.

Well.....I'll be!! I think I have your cell #. Mine is 214.632.7132. If you hop up to Portage, I'll have a rental car. OTOH, Sunday sometime not too early in Madison or for lunch would be great!!

Dave

Well.....I'll be!! I think I have your cell #. Mine is 214.632.7132. If you hop up to Portage, I'll have a rental car. OTOH, Sunday sometime not too early in Madison or for lunch would be great!!

Dave

Sorry! My niece just called and told me her Great Uncle just passed away; looks like we'll be shooting for the following weekend.

Dave

 

[flyingcheesehead]

looks like we'll be shooting for the following weekend.

That'd probably work better anyway, I'm utterly swamped working on stuff for my flying club's annual meeting this Sunday evening.

I'm not only trying to analyze the numbers way further in depth than we've ever done before, I'm also trying to come up with numbers for what five different models of aircraft would cost us if we bought them new or used, did or didn't sell one of our Archers, did or didn't add five or ten members, etc...

 

[Richard]

I'm not only trying to analyze the numbers way further in depth than we've ever done before, I'm also trying to come up with numbers for what five different models of aircraft would cost us if we bought them new or used, did or didn't sell one of our Archers, did or didn't add five or ten members, etc...

Dang, it sounds like you'd save time by writing an algorithym for the local Cray. What's the estimated time required to fully consider all the possible permutations?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Re: The biggest auto-merged mess of a post, ever.

IMHO. No we should not ever fly over the top of a SOLID overcast VFR.

IMHO, we should take every opportunity to do so and enjoy the beautiful sights up there.

Nothing wrong with staying down low, but...

That said I still won't go less than 6SM and 2000 AGL ceiling.

Ironically, I would MUCH rather go VFR over the top, if possible, than to scud run beneath a 2000 AGL ceiling. I had to briefly duck down to around 2000 AGL on this flight, and I honestly felt MUCH safer being on top at 8500. If the engine goes at 1500AGL (legal vfr under that 2000 AGL) you have very little time to attempt a restart and very few options for places to land. At 8500 (~7600 AGL) you have some time, even if there's a short period of IMC involved, to head for the nearest airport, highway, etc. and attempt a restart.

I'm all about keeping a clean slate with the FAA. I really do not want to put myself in a situation to where my only out in an emergency is going to have a very large amount of paperwork.

I've declared an emergency once in my first 100 hours. It's something I'd rather avoid if I could.

The three-hour fuel reserve was my first out. No emergency, no paperwork. Second out would be getting vectored down, to an approach if needed. That may or may not generate paperwork.

I'm curious, since you've already experienced an emergency... What happened, what was the outcome, and what kind of paperwork was involved? I've been led to believe that most emergencies do not involve much, if any, paperwork.

Like I said we all have different opinions of what is dangerous and what isn't. Who is right? .. No one, thats the beauty

Naah, the beauty of the different opinions is that we have this board for endless discussions.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Dang, it sounds like you'd save time by writing an algorithym for the local Cray. What's the estimated time required to fully consider all the possible permutations?

Every free moment between now and the start of our annual meeting at 7 PM on Sunday.

We simplified things a bit tonight. Our older Archer lost money this year and we will sell it. Thus, it's now a question of 30 vs. 35 members, and what airplane do we buy. MUCH simpler problem.