Trip report (Europe): Croatia, Greece, Turkey

Excellent report!

One must observe that we have it so very good here- none of the gyrations with which you are saddled. "Prior Permission REquired" indeed!

I file an IFR flight plan on my cell phone, depart five minutes later... or, weather-permitting, I launch into VFR conditions and fly as I see fit.
 
Nice report! Really enjoyed it.

To add to what Spike said - it's really a shame that bureaucracy has made GA so difficult over there. People have proudly told me that they fly a whole 40 hours a year and that that's about as much as anyone else in the club flies. With a 182RG renting for almost $400/hr, that doesn't surprise me - probably won't help proficiency much, though....
 
So what's the deal with the PPR requirements? Are these places really that busy, or is it just a way to squeeze more money out of you?

Wonderful report, and the scenery in the adriatic was beautiful.
 
So what's the deal with the PPR requirements? Are these places really that busy, or is it just a way to squeeze more money out of you?
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Prob99 neither. These countries are full of "little men" who need to feel important. In fact these little men are found everywhere in airport management... going round enforcing the wearing of yellow jackets, etc. And they need to create work. PPR is just one of the ways this is done.

The exceptions to the above are a few airports which are genuinely massively busy, but there are only a few of them in Europe. London Gatwick EGKK is one (very busy for parts of the day) but they have landing and "mandatory handling" costs of about $150 and $600 (resp.) so the only "GA" there is an occassional bizjet. Heathrow EGLL bans light GA altogether; one of the very few to do so formally. I could fly to Gatwick but it is 24hrs PPR which I can probably understand.

A couple of months ago I planned to fly to Corfu, LGKR in Greece. I knew the place was 24hrs PPR so applied a few days beforehand. I got a reply back saying the airport is absolutely closed. I phoned them up and the man said there is an important security conference, with 30 jets arriving. With nothing to lose at that point, I told him their apron (ramp) is big enough for the whole Greek air force! Then he said they have 60 jets arriving... Hilary Clinton was one of them. They also kicked out their aeroclub out of there for the few days. My lady friend was flying in commercially and reported that only about two planes were parked there... and HK did not turn up anyway.

That is what most PPR is - just a paperwork creation scheme :) But it is a disease which is spreading in Europe.
 
Peter:

Without going all political, there are many here who regard the European Union as a model to be emulated here in the States. I am not one such person!

I certainly do hope, however, that you will find yourself over here sometime soon, so that some of these PoA-ers can buy you dinner and make you fly about.
 
SCCutler said:
Without going all political, there are many here who regard the European Union as a model to be emulated here in the States. I am not one such person!
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That is a very political issue. I think those people who think that the US should emulate the EU don't understand the completely different problems each entity is trying to solve.

I think the main issue in Europe for GA is that the airlines are seen as the customer. Interestingly enough, the FAA just specifically said that the flying public, and NOT the airlines, are its customer. Very different mindsets...
 
there are many here who regard the European Union as a model to be emulated here in the States
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That would be a disaster.

There is a huge vast massive difference between the European "Union" and the USA:

In the USA, while there are big cultural differences across the country (I have visited quite a number of times and deal with Americans almost daily), the vast majority of the inhabitants regard themselves as AMERICANS first and foremost. My guess would be close to 99%.

In Europe there is no equivalent cohesion, and it is inconceivable there ever will be - not in the next few centuries IMHO. Moreover, patriotism gets equated with nationalism which (ex WW2 especially) is a dirty word. But almost nobody (except a small number of young people in the N European countries; not the UK) thinks of themselves as "Europeans" in nation terms.

In aviation specifically, a lot of the European hassles come from airport financing. In the USA, the system is generally centrally funded, as an economic asset (like the railways etc might be regarded). In Europe, this is still the case in most places but there is a trend to force airports to stand on their own feet financially. This has happened fully in the UK, where airports have to make ends meet from landing fees, sales of fuel and food, but mostly from rents on commercial property located within. The enroute ATC bit has been sold off as well, which is more problematic for GA because GA under 2000kg doesn't pay enroute fees. The problem with splitting things up to this degree is that it is very hard for an airport to make money from air traffic by charging landing fees which are even remotely realistic; probably impossible in most cases. I am in US AOPA and read the stuff about user fee proposals in the USA and wonder where this will lead. But it's obviously a hugely complex situation.
 
SCCutler said:
Peter:

Without going all political, there are many here who regard the European Union as a model to be emulated here in the States. I am not one such person!
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That's true, and while I like visiting EU states I agree with your sentiment. Any other comments about the New World Order belong in Spin Zone.

I certainly do hope, however, that you will find yourself over here sometime soon, so that some of these PoA-ers can buy you dinner and make you fly about.
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+1.
 
There is nothing wrong with Europe that the next world war can't cure...
 
Ahh shoot, managed to hit send accidentally.. Along with my sarcastic comment about the cure for European bureaucracy, I wanted to also say that reading of all the planning and prior approvals and having to fly specific routes on your trip gives me chills and nausea...

I (we) routinely make 1200 mile flights from Michigan to Florida... I check the weather, etc. on DUATS, the wife loads the dog and his treats into the plane, and we go... We stop for fuel when we feel like it, at whatever airport we have not been to before - we have been known to drop down low and fly a river valley that looks interesting, or even deviate a hundred miles to see some land mark or other... I fly high or I fly low, depending on the winds... Same for the trip home... On trips where the weather is VFR I will not talk to ATC the entire trip - only make Unicom/CTAF announcements at the various airports...

In the USA we are slowly losing this freedom as permanent TFR's proliferate and the HSA goon squads consolidate their power...
denny-o
 
But in America it is still more about freedom than not. Yes you have to check for TFRs, but they're rare in most parts of the country and you can go where you will. That said, our international travel is not so different from Europe, with manifests and customs and whatnot if you fly outside the continental US. And most European states are small enough that you can leave your own national borders quite quickly.
 
steingar said:
But in America it is still more about freedom than not. Yes you have to check for TFRs, but they're rare in most parts of the country and you can go where you will. That said, our international travel is not so different from Europe, with manifests and customs and whatnot if you fly outside the continental US. And most European states are small enough that you can leave your own national borders quite quickly.
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If one stays within "Schengen" which is quite a bit of the EU and some more no customs or whatever if you cross borders. Just a flightplan(sometimes not even that) and you are good to go. The only real pain at the moment are equipment requirements(406 Mhz ELTs and mode-S)
 
Schengen has helped a lot within the main bit of western Europe.

Switzerland joined recently.

Greece is also in Schengen but ignores it for "vehicles" which includes aircraft ;)

UK pilots have to fly to an international (Customs) airport first. This is not actually a big deal because it is only at an international airport that ATC are obliged to speak English, so they are a good choice anyway.

Except for Netherlands (at the moment, I think) I think the ELT requirement is met by a handheld 406MHz beacon. One can buy one of those for the cost of a tank of avgas. Mode S costs more.......

The PPR problem remains however - Schengen or not.
 
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