Transponder is life

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
We Decided to go on a breakfast flight today. I need to get some flight time in and I have flown solo in awhile, so with the high DA I drove to the airport alone.

Normal routine and all is fine. I filed on the phone with Leesburg FSS while enroute with 2 legs, W00-2W5 and then 2W5-KCGE via the WHINO gate, exiting the SFRA.

Departing W00 2420ft runway on 18 is a slight hill climb. I'm looking for 55 to get airborne, but the ASI hovered at 50 for quite awhile while climbing the hill, then I'm aloft. A bit busy on climbout as I'm aware of the 2 airplanes in the vicinity. I let traffic know I'm out of the airspace.

I switch over to Potomac approach and announce that I'm aloft. They ask my position and I reply with a position report. They ask me to IDENT my transponder and I comply. Negative contact. Then they request I cycle. Negative contact. So I cycle, IDENT twice more before I could get him back on the radio, where he says transponder observed, have a number for you to copy.

Aw CRAP!

I get to 2W5 and call and am informed that they were about to send F-16s after me (face slap). He asks for my info (as if he didn't know???).

Thanks.

A call back (same place, different number) and I get a new transponder for the next leg and he also mentions the possible intercept. I was a little testy and commented that I felt it a waste of taxpayer dollars (not the right forum for the comment - sorry).

Nevertheless, picked up my 3 passengers and departed. Uneventful leg to CGE and ready to sit down for a tasty meal at Kay's.

Aw CRAP! Kay's is closed.

So we got transportation into town and ate at a really nice diner. 3 adults and a toddler for $35 bucks tax and tip (not bad). $20 tip to our driver and were back at enroute to W00.

1.9hrs and 3 landings and now I need to think about whether or not I'm going to do an ASRS (after reviewing the SFRA rule book again) and/ or wait for the FSDO call.

It was a good day

Now we have to think about if we're going to 2 cookouts. It's friggin hot out!
 
What I'm not seeing in your story is you calling Potomac on the phone before takeoff to get your discrete transponder code. Did you forget to do that, or just forget to mention it?
 
File the ASRS, it never hurts.
You filed, you called on the radio, and ATC had issues recieving what appears to be a valid xpndr, as they had no problems seeing you come home. You were talking and squawking, the problem was on their end, and for that they scramble F-16s?

Is there a place to post problems with the SFRA procedures?
 
Ron Levy said:
What I'm not seeing in your story is you calling Potomac on the phone before takeoff to get your discrete transponder code. Did you forget to do that, or just forget to mention it?
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Forgot to mention. Good catch
 
Kay's at CGE is closed on Wednesdays, and closes at 3pm on Sundays. I've learned the hard way.
 
I'd call them up and tell them to stuff their SFRA and that this is the U.S. of A. former land of the free and you plan on returning it to that.
 
I'm not sure why the controller threw a fit. You called ahead, got your code but it simply took awhile to tag up on his scope. technology isn't perfect all the time. If he was going to write you up for an operational error/deviation he would have told you on the phone. But, to be safe I would file an ASRS. Hopefully you have AOPA Legal but I'm sure it won't come to that.
 
I've had controllers get testy due to fatfingered squawk codes (once my fault as a student, once more recently, their fault), and there seem to be areas where they can't see you very well up by LUCKE. Sometimes I would wonder if the ident button was inop. Never had them mention an intercept. Maybe the guy was new?

What diner near CGE?
 
It was a place out in town....Cambridge Diner I think I overheard.
 
Don't sweat it Jaybird. Whatever . . . it will amount to small beans.
 
Definitely an ASRS. This was inadvertent and may be a technical issue beyond your control (weak transponder output, lead-salts on the nub antenna ?), an ASRS should get you out of the 90 days.

What type of Transponder ?
Did you have it on STBY before you took the runway or did you take it from OFF to ALT in one motion ? I found an older transponder in a borrowed aircraft that wouldn't send a squawk for several minutes anytime you went from OFF to ALT, even if it was already warmed up. Some of these still have vacuum tubes.
 
GeorgeC said:
I've had controllers get testy due to fatfingered squawk codes (once my fault as a student, once more recently, their fault), and there seem to be areas where they can't see you very well up by LUCKE. Sometimes I would wonder if the ident button was inop. Never had them mention an intercept. Maybe the guy was new?
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One thing I was told (but do not know for sure) is that in the DC SFRA, it is better to squawk the wrong 4-digit code than 1200. Apparently, that sets off fewer alarms and doesn't result in an automatic violation the way squawking 1200 does.
 
Ron Levy said:
One thing I was told (but do not know for sure) is that in the DC SFRA, it is better to squawk the wrong 4-digit code than 1200. Apparently, that sets off fewer alarms and doesn't result in an automatic violation the way squawking 1200 does.
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I can see why squawking 1200 represents a most grievous security breech. We're just lucky that the TSA and cohorts don't have SAMs armed and ready to blow any such miscreants out of the sky without warning. Hopefully all the airborne terrorist wannabes are guaranteed to dial that in on their transponders.
 
gismo said:
I can see why squawking 1200 represents a most grievous security breech. We're just lucky that the TSA and cohorts don't have SAMs armed and ready to blow any such miscreants out of the sky without warning. Hopefully all the airborne terrorist wannabes are guaranteed to dial that in on their transponders.
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It's in the Terrorist Operations Manual, page 42. "Thou shalt at all times squawk 1200 on the transponder of your hijacked aircraft."
 
Ron Levy said:
One thing I was told (but do not know for sure) is that in the DC SFRA, it is better to squawk the wrong 4-digit code than 1200. Apparently, that sets off fewer alarms and doesn't result in an automatic violation the way squawking 1200 does.
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1200 is the worst possible idea. You're better off squawking 7500...well, almost.

I know two pilots who've been busted for squawking 1200. One was an IFR, had GAI in sight and canceled. On short final a plane pulled out and cut him off so he went around. In the circuit he squawked 1200. That earned him a suspension. The other was pattern work squawking 1200. Another violation.

Please please please don't squawk 1200 in the imaginary circle.
 
Captain said:
1200 is the worst possible idea. You're better off squawking 7500...well, almost.

I know two pilots who've been busted for squawking 1200. One was an IFR, had GAI in sight and canceled. On short final a plane pulled out and cut him off so he went around. In the circuit he squawked 1200. That earned him a suspension. The other was pattern work squawking 1200. Another violation.

Please please please don't squawk 1200 in the imaginary circle.
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I suppose the (more) correct action would be to use the missed approach procedure while contacting departure? Serious question, not hacking on you, I have no experience in the Imaginary Circle of Death up there.
 
airguy said:
I suppose the (more) correct action would be to use the missed approach procedure while contacting departure? Serious question, not hacking on you, I have no experience in the Imaginary Circle of Death up there.
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The most, nay, only correct answer is to leave the transponder on the assigned 4-digit code until you land.
 
No, keep the assigned squawk code come fire or aliens. Even if you cancel IFR then keep the code. ATC sorta hosed the one guy by saying 'squawk appropriate code' when he canceled. Well, appropriate code means the code you're on.

Tough break. This all happened before the FAR requirement to do any training to fly VFR in the area.
 
oops, Cap'n Ron and I posted together at the same time...
 
Simple solution... I dont' plan to move to an airport inside the imaginary death zone.

I did take the online SFRA course and get a "certificate of training" and a number for my east coast trip two years ago... I didn't need it as the weather on the Maryland coast changed my routing to West Virginia as I headed south.
 
Some people make all SFRA operations out to be rolling the dice with your certificate. For anyone capable of flying (especially flying under / through / around a moderately busy Bravo area in the first place) it's a very small mental overhead, in my opinion.

Now the FRZ, on the other hand... :wink2:

The ATC phraseology when switching to CTAF and / or canceling IFR in the SFRA is (now, at least) very explicit about remaining on the code.
 
tiger said:
The ATC phraseology when switching to CTAF and / or canceling IFR in the SFRA is (now, at least) very explicit about remaining on the code.
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...and has been so since very early in the existence of the "Enhanced Class B" precursor to the DC ADIZ precursor to the DC SFRA. They made that change only a few months after it all started. It's gotten to the point I can recite it along with the controllers when they give it to me.
 
Same here. I no longer fly there, but always had the urge to reply "stop talkin', keep squawkin'" when they gave me the spiel...
 
I'm glad we don't have anything like the SFRA in AR. The worse ATC has replied with was please get the transponder fixed when you get back to base. I have talked to the guy in APP and all they do is tag your primary return and go from there.

Also interceptions around here is the military guys messing with you for kicks.
 
Okay, just re-did the SFRA course. It has been updated since I last took it, so I updated my knowledge and learned a few things, like JYO procedures, which I may not use anytime in the near future.

The lost transponder procedure says to communicate with ATC and comply with instructions. Based on that, I think I am in compliance. I think I may still file the ASRS just to enter my opinion on the waste of taxpayer resources when I was in compliance with the procedure.

Would it be helpful to have a ground review of SFRA procedures with a CFI & log it in my logbook in the event I catch a case?
 
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Screwing up in the DC SFRA is pretty bad no matter what you do. However, it may look even worse for you if you have documented training on the subject. Not sure it would make any difference though.

From my understanding, all infractions of the DC SFRA requires the FAA to turn the matter over to the DHS. No exceptions.
 
1 It is an infraction if there is an established procedure and it was followed?

2 Training is required to operate in the area, so they cannot punish you harder because of the theory that you should have known better.
 
The primary purpose of ASRS is not the "get out of jail free" aspect. The primary purpose is to collect anonymous data about aviation safety issues so the entire aviation community can learn from them. For that reason alone it is a good idea to file an ASRS any time you experience something where you felt the "way things worked" could be improved to provide a safer experience for all.

You never know, the next edition of ASRS callback might be about SFRA procedures!
 
Jaybird180 said:
The lost transponder procedure says to communicate with ATC and comply with instructions. Based on that, I think I am in compliance. I think I may still file the ASRS just to enter my opinion on the waste of taxpayer resources when I was in compliance with the procedure.
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The place to address that concern is your Congressional delegation, not NASA. If your concern is that there is a systemic problem which can be fixed (and I don't mean repealing the DC SFRA rules), that would be the issue to address with NASA, but I don't see such an issue here.

Would it be helpful to have a ground review of SFRA procedures with a CFI & log it in my logbook in the event I catch a case?
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I don't see why -- you did exactly what the rules say to do. I can't see any possible enforcement action unless the FAA wants to attempt to prove that the problem was operator error rather than mechanical malfunction.
 
OT but related: there is a procedure for lost comms and another for lost transponder, but no procedure for total avionics failure in flight. I guess in that case you're getting an F-16 visit, and if the guy is trigger happy, he can simply claim suicide by cop.:yikes:

Ya know, they have to prove they're protecting us.
 
Jaybird180 said:
OT but related: there is a procedure for lost comms and another for lost transponder, but no procedure for total avionics failure in flight.
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However, it has happened (lightning strike, IIRC), and the pilot did what he had to do to get on the ground safely -- and nobody shot him down or even intercepted him (pretty hard to do in that weather).
I guess in that case you're getting an F-16 visit, and if the guy is trigger happy, he can simply claim suicide by cop.:yikes:
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Individual pilots on this duty are not authorized to do shoot without specific orders. The RoE require authorization from one of four people, starting with the President and ending with the duty general at HQ NORAD. I suppose one of them could do it anyway, but it's not likely (the Air Force is pretty careful about who they let fly their airplanes), and the pilot would have to know s/he would be court-martialed for having done it, with an array of charges ranging from Article 92 "Failure to obey an order or regulation" to Article 118 "Murder."
 
I could send that right to the SZ, but not gonna.
 
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