Transition from 182 to PA-32RT-300

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by benyflyguy, Jan 19, 2021.

  1. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    2,921
    Location:
    NEPA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    Currently flying 182H with standard 6 pack with 430w with electric hsi. Autopilot with altitude hold. Solid club plane. Was my “getting back into aviation plane”. Did my IFR cert in it. Decent hauler. Not going to win any races but you can pack it pretty good and go. Range to outlast bladders.

    Recently have had to option to start flying a lance II (t-tail). Have to do 5 hours to get added onto insurance with my CFI and probably will do 5 more at least to be more comfortable. What are Some of the things I can expect or need to look out for?? As far as retract experience I have 25 hours in an arrow years ago.
    as far as the lance. Engine getting close to high time about 250 hrs to TBO. Six pack with KSN-770 (oh yeah) century autopilot with coupler
    So why? Family is getting bigger. Wife and two kids trips planned about 300nm with occ longer. Kids getting bigger 10 and 12 to boys. Starting to do wb calculations that require leaving fuel closer then I like.
    lance has more useful, club seating more comfortable, is a bit faster.
    Things I have thought about:
    1) wb- looks like with wb calculations you can get aft of cg pretty quick. so have to really pay attention to that
    2) t-tail. Seems often disputed but seems clear landing is very different and need to be mindful.
    3) fuel management tank switching- in recent times had to worry about this. So that is new-
    4) gps. The ksn-770 was not well received. Have been watching a lot of yT videos and looking to a steep learning curve. If what it took to get it updated is any indicator of what is in store for future-it’ll be a wild ride. Hardest part seems to be breaking down it’s complexities. If it really turns out to be a bear that just is impossible to overcome then might have to pony up for an avdyne 540.
    5) gear. I have retract time but it’s been awhile. I like checklists. Will have to be vigilant and make sure I stick to protocols in pattern as well as on long finals.

    Its a good fit for me and my family. Not perfect but often this journey never is right? What I’m I missing, or need to pay more attention to?? What are the pitfalls?
    I am going to stay club member on the 182 as it’s not too pricey and I’ve already help find some bigger annuals so to be am invested for a bit.
     
  2. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    13,169
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    eman1200
    1) I don’t recall it ever being an issue but I didn’t pack it up too much when I flew the t tail

    2) different than what? It is not hard to land nor did I find it any different than other pipers I had flown other than it’s got a heavy nose. Also I’d be careful of actual short field landings. Otherwise, no different.

    3) I recall a left and right tank. Not overly complicated

    4) no feedback, never used this gps

    5) gear switch goes up, gear goes up. gear switch goes down, gear goes down. Pretty simple

    I’d guess you’ll be perfectly comfortable after your 5 hour checkout.
     
    benyflyguy likes this.
  3. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    9,208
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    I've never heard of any of the larger Pipers having a CG range issue.

    Bonanzas, yes.

    Variants of the Piper PA-32? Seriously? That would be a new one on me.
    (Cue to @Pilawt posting a picture of someone loading a piano into the back of a -32)

    Paging @Rgbeard , @NealRomeoGolf and @Jim K
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
    benyflyguy likes this.
  4. MikeNY

    MikeNY Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2011
    Messages:
    28
    Location:
    New York
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mike
    agreed.

    -T-tail elevator authority at low speeds (perceived as unpopular) led to a short production run (1978-79). No biggie, just check runway requirements. For POH numbers, consider adding 50%. (*)
    -SBs and ADs; wing spar.

    -Century Altimatic IIIC, gets the job done.
    Older autopilot topic refers to a different gps, but may be useful re glideslope: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...e-altimatic-iiic-to-follow-glide-slope.70531/
    -No significant concerns about aft cg in either of two Lance II aircraft (flying varying pax/luggage weights)

    (*) For example, POH chapter 5 performance charts, consider calculations using max weight, KHZL elevation 1603’ (or other home field) ... with summer temps.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
    benyflyguy likes this.
  5. AeroLudite

    AeroLudite Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    May 25, 2020
    Messages:
    65
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AeroLudite
    I’ve got several thousand hours in several T-tails.
    Actually, it’s not a great deal different than the 182. Most 182’s I’ve flown have been nose heavy. Left turn tendency is pronounced and long climbs will a quaint you with the rudder trim.
    The fuel system is a little different in that you normally switch tanks every 45min to maintain balance of the fuel load. You have two fuel pumps since it’s a low wing. Always use the electric boost pump for take off, landing, and switching tanks.
    I normally have the ones I fly filled to 35gal a side via the site gauge on the inner tank. I plan on 15gal/hr @2300, 16.5gph@2400rpm. 75gal is about 4hrs at 150-155kts true. The late model Turbo Saratoga is a thirsty hog. 20gph @75% but 162kts true.
    I fly the Ttail just like a Seneca. 105kts on final, 85kts over the #’s. Try to fly it down to 65kts and you’ll wheelbarrow it!
    Load heavy stuff in nose baggage compartment, light stuff (pillows) on rear hat shelf, and biggest people in right front seat or middle seats. Go fly! The Ttail I flew the most had a 1,394lb useful load! Never had a problem with an aft cg. Though I’m sure on several occasions we were likely over weight. (But not by much...) They are real haulers! A long ago student of mine, year before last, was using one to fly slaughtered packed beef off an island in Alaska. He said that they were carrying 1,500lbs, plus fuel and pilot in a Cherokee-6! But had a specific weight and balance for Alaska ops. He said it flew “heavy”, but fine otherwise!
    There’s a reason they’re still being built!
    No experience with your avionics.
     
    benyflyguy likes this.
  6. Jim K

    Jim K Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2019
    Messages:
    1,179
    Location:
    CMI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jim
    I'm surprised to hear about rear cg being an issue. In my straight tail I put the pillows in the front and the gold bars in the back. I have a 3 blade prop, but I can't imagine it would make that much difference. Playing with it, I haven't really found a way to get outside cg while still within gross weight, although I have to add ballast in the rear baggage if it's just me & my cfi.

    Loading the archer & dakota near the rear cg limit didn't make too much difference, but on the lance it does. I have more experimenting to do, but I've taken to carrying 2 cases of water in the rear baggage. Forward cg limit to aft limit seems to add almost 10mph.

    I flew a Dakota a fair bit before I bought the lance, so the left turning tendency on go around wasn't a big shock. The biggest thing to get used to is the looooong nose. You lose the runway in the flare, and at vx (and even vy) all you see is nose & sky. You get used to it.

    I had 0 retract time going in, so I was very apprehensive about remembering gear. Some things I like:
    -gumps every time I touch the flap handle. I almost always use full flaps to help overcome the aforementioned forward visibility issue, so that gives me 3 opportunities to check.
    -i put the gear down, and leave my hand on the handle until I have 3 greens
    - the plane is set up very well in that when in level flight at approach speed, dropping the gear without touching power gives me a 450fpm descent, so once you know your power settings, it'd be pretty hard to forget the gear
    - the gear warning light/ horn is pretty well thought out and again makes it essentially impossible to forget.
    - do one last "panic check"as you cross the threshold
    In the end, there's so many reminders, and I'm so aware of it, it's nbd.

    I don't know if the t- tail is as well mannered as the straight tail, but it really flies like a cherokee, as in like a trainer. Maybe a bit more sluggish on the controls and obviously a bit faster.

    One of my insurance requirements was to fly at max gross. It took about 5mph more to take off, and increased the stall speed by about 5mph.... other than that it flew exactly the same.

    Oh.... don't ever push the emergency gear extend lever while the pump is running. You'll blow the o-ring out of the valve and you'll have to take it apart. The o-ring is cheap, but the book says not to take the valve apart, so you have to find a mechanic who's willing to fix things rather than just replace them.
     
  7. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,942
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ and Ensenada, Mexico
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    rgbeard
    1) There's a front and rear baggage area and use it as much as necessary. A 40-pack of water bottles from Walmart can help occasionally.

    2) When my dad got his PA-32RT, the sales rep told him, "Fly it like a little LearJet on landing." That advice worked well for my dad. I used the same advice when I bought mine.

    3) Such a non-event. Left/Right. Nothing to really overthink.

    4) No comment.

    5) Make a DYMO Label "DFTPTFWD". Even when by yourself, call out "Gear down, three in the green" verbally. I call it out loud. Myself, I call it three times outloud.
     
  8. AeroLudite

    AeroLudite Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    May 25, 2020
    Messages:
    65
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AeroLudite
    Jim K.
    The mentioned AK pilot did his COMM SEL check ride in the Ttail. We put 150lbs of lead bird shot in a wooden pallet in the rear cargo area so he could make nice soft field t/o’s and landings!

    I too never had problems with an aft cg.

    However, 5big guys, me, a bird dog, waders, shotguns (placed lengthwise against fuselage next to middle seats), and a couple of cases of shotgun shells, hunting cloths, and gear.... made for an interesting load! Fortunately we only had a 175nm leg so fuel load was adjusted accordingly.
    Then, there was the time I put a child seat in the baggage compartment of a Seneca (allowed!!!). 7 occupants.
    btw, I don’t have a high regard for Bonanzas or Barons! Though I have good memories of a certain B55 Travelaire.