Transiting airspace of military airports

That's not quite true. I guarantee that nobody's monitoring KSBY's tower freq when the tower's closed (except maybe a pilot in the pattern using it as a CTAF), and nobody's breaking any rules. Ditto Patuxent Approach when they're closed -- Washington Center only monitors their own freq's then, not Pax's.

As for Felker, if you're receiving flight following from Norfolk Approach (125.7), you're already covered whether the tower is open or not. If not, call Felker Tower on 126.3, but don't expect anyone to answer unless the tower is open (1200-0400Z++ MON-FRI EXC FEDERAL HOL), in which case the airspace reverts to Class G except for one hour before the tower opens when it's Class E.

You are right, I'm at W75 about 20 Miles from Felker. Just call Norfolk approach (assuming that as a SP you have the proper endorsement) and you are covered. I'm not worried as much with Felker (not much activity) more so KPHF much more military activity (maintaining IFR currency at KPHF).
 
I flew this route on Sunday except I was coming from Newport News and flying into JGG. What I generally do is when departing runway 20 or 25, just climb out of Newport News until I get to 3000 and then head direct JGG. If I depart to the north, I just fly up the york river instead. (Consider transitioning through Newport News airspace, controllers there are awesome) Once you get past Felker, you can start your descent into Williamsburg. If you don't feel comfortable doing that, just peel out to the south side of the james river to go around Felker airspace.


...Also, don't take this as permission to bust airspace but I have been flying out of Newport News for a few years now and have never heard of someone getting caught busting Felker airspace. It almost looks like an abandoned airstrip from the air...Very little traffic

Good luck, Charlys restaurant is the best there is.

Probably much better advice than the BS I and others have been posting in this thread. Rep
 
FCLP - Field Carrier Landing Practice

Fake ground based aircraft carrier "deck". Meatball, LSOs standing out there, arresting wires, all that jazz.


Ah...like the approach end of 14 at Buckley! Well maybe not the meatball and LSOs. Buckley's been thru so many owners I'm not surprised at anything out there.
 
The arresting wires are always there and generally in battery at most USN/USMC fields.....nothing to do with FCLP's, though sometimes they de-rig the approach end gear so that bounce/FCLP traffic doesn't knock it out of battery. They also aren't coincident with the IFLOLS/FLOLS/"meatball" most of the time, so a field short field arrestment is typically not flown on the ball, at least in close.
 
The arresting wires are always there and generally in battery at most USN/USMC fields.....nothing to do with FCLP's, though sometimes they de-rig the approach end gear so that bounce/FCLP traffic doesn't knock it out of battery. They also aren't coincident with the IFLOLS/FLOLS/"meatball" most of the time, so a field short field arrestment is typically not flown on the ball, at least in close.
That has apparently not changed since I was doing that stuff 35 years ago -- there may be wires, but they aren't part of FCLP and aren't located where they would be on a real deck. Only place I know of where they are is at the aux runway at NAS Lakehurst, where they develop and test catapult and arresting gear systems, and I don't think anyone does FCLP there.
 
Thanks for your input. I'm sure I'll do this flight sometime...

As to the SLF, I wasn't thinking, because it's in a whole mess of restricted airspace down there. But I'm sure there are other airports that would be cool to fly over/near... I know you can land at Dover AFB for some obscene landing fee that only bizjets would pay. Civil Air Terminal or something like that.
 
> Flying in to a military field is a whole 'nother can of worms. Usually it is a
> royal pain in the arse and not worth the effort (and paperwork).

+1

Exception: On rare occasions, military fields will allow GA fly-ins to attend an airshow. It still requires significant paperwork and prior approvals; typically weeks in advance. They'll also want to know precisely who is aboard.

Once that dance is completed, you'll be issued a PPR (Prior Permission Req'd) number.

You'll also be subject to VERY close supervision. Ramp escorts, Follow-Me trucks, etc. Gawd help you if you have a mechanical problem ... and you need to import a A&P, parts, tools, etc.
 
Last edited:
Actually CRon, I called PXT the other night passing through and someone there called me back and told me they were closed and I should call center.
 
Actually CRon, I called PXT the other night passing through and someone there called me back and told me they were closed and I should call center.


All airspace that is owned has a guy monitoring the appropriate frequency. There are places that switch control. Military approaches do this too. When the military has control they handle the traffic. When they are closed they do not. But the airspace remains controlled so it reverts back to the civilian controller responsible for that area.

If you call the military during closed hours then you'll get told to contact approach or Center (whichever is applicable).

It's like when the local tower is slow and one guy handles clearance, ground and tower. If you call ground for taxi the tower guy will tell you to come up on his freq (tower). Ground hasn't gone away. The service is still there, it's just being handled by another entity.
 
> All military air fields have civilian band frequencies....the only question is whether they
> monitor them, which is probably a hit or miss thing depending on the facility.

I have never had a military staffed tower/approach fail to respond.

Transit their airspace? Probably, depending upon ops.

Overfly the field? Probably not, in my experience.

When I fly with this guy from Palo Alto (AERIC) we get asked to overfly the Moffett field all the time. We get handed off to Moffett Tower, talk to them, then get handed off again to somebody else.
 
Actually CRon, I called PXT the other night passing through and someone there called me back and told me they were closed and I should call center.
That happens late at night after SBY tower closes, too. In that situation, calling SBY tower won't get you any answer, either, and ZDC is blind below about 4000 MSL.
 
When I fly with this guy from Palo Alto (AERIC) we get asked to overfly the Moffett field all the time. We get handed off to Moffett Tower, talk to them, then get handed off again to somebody else.

Yup, any approach or departure to the south gets handed off to Moffett, until the tower closes (then, it's Class E). But that is rather special, because the airspace is so close to Palo Alto as to be unavoidable. It's not at all uncommon to get base turns for 31 extended well into Moffett airspace if Palo Alto is even moderately busy. Like, every Saturday in the summer.
 
Just as a hypothetical question...what airspace does a carrier own when it is launching and retrieving aircraft at sea, while within the ADIZ? Would there be TFRs in place, or the ship operating in a restricted area that goes down to the surface? Or would it be legal to approach the carrier, maintaining visual contact with any aircraft nearby, and remaining at least 500' from the ship per 91.119?

I doubt they'd appreciate it, and wouldn't want to be a target of the CIWS gun, but what prevents it?
 
You couldn't be a CWIS target if you tried. You have to close the ship at near super sonic in order to trigger the system that you're a threat.

How close can you get? FARs spell it out. Heres a hint, the ocean is 'other than congested'.

Plus, very few carrier ops take place in ADIZ airspace and the ones that do would be in a warning area. You go out there it's buyer beware.
 
Just as a hypothetical question...what airspace does a carrier own when it is launching and retrieving aircraft at sea, while within the ADIZ? Would there be TFRs in place, or the ship operating in a restricted area that goes down to the surface? Or would it be legal to approach the carrier, maintaining visual contact with any aircraft nearby, and remaining at least 500' from the ship per 91.119?

Absolutely not....we would be escorting you away long before you got close enough to even see it, let alone be 500' from it. For ATC purposes, when offshore the states, it's about a 50 NM bubble around the boat. No restricted areas over international waters, but CONUS ops will take place in warning areas, which are essentially restricted areas in practice. TFR's would not apply, since 1) we don't advertise ship's movements to anyone in advance, and 2) again, international waters technically speaking. In fact, we don't use the ship's name when working with ATC, and they don't give us any kind of a vector. Typically around the US, we call up Beaver/Giant Killer (FACSFAC/VACAPES control) and check in with the destination/point of origin as "USS Boat". They just tell us to report "sweet lock/sweet comms" with the boat, and then we switch.....this just means that we have been able to check in with strike, and we are picking up the boat's tacan. This keeps any reference of the ship's position off the air to the rest of the world who might be listening in on unencrypted UHF comms.
 
Ah...like the approach end of 14 at Buckley! Well maybe not the meatball and LSOs. Buckley's been thru so many owners I'm not surprised at anything out there.

Also, I believe the USAF entire system is significantly different from the USN systems. So, Buckley... Not really the same... But I see what you're saying.

Buckley's real "owners" have always been the customers of the stuff the golf-balls and big buildings with huge electrical power feeds and air-cooling systems provide. The name on the gate is just whoever wants to write the checks to keep the rest of it open that particular budget cycle. ;-)

It just happens to be a good place to park and operate a few Guard F-16s and has a nice big hangar for AF1's entourage/menagerie, too. But that's all secondary there. Not their real job.

Would be neat if it still had an Aero Club. Petersen does. Buckley is probably considered a little "too sensitive" for that. They closed theirs in the early 90s...

You should'a come down to play at Petersen last time... It's fun to stand next to those red lines on the ramp that say "Do not cross" unless you want a dirt sandwich and an M-16 pointed at you. ;) ;) ;)
 
No restricted areas over international waters, but CONUS ops will take place in warning areas, which are essentially restricted areas in practice.
Point of contention....I had to correct another Hornet guy I worked with about this. A Warning Area is NOT a Restricted Area. It is more like a MOA over the ocean. GA can (and do) fly through 'Whiskey' areas all the time without talking to anyone.....but, like a MOA, they are taking their lives into their own hands if they choose to do so.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Point of contention....I had to correct another Hornet guy I worked with about this. A Warning Area is NOT a Restricted Area. It is more like a MOA over the ocean. GA can (and do) fly through 'Whiskey' areas all the time without talking to anyone.....but, like a MOA, they are taking their lives into their own hands if they choose to do so.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

It can't be restricted like R areas due to lack of authority, but the mentality on our end is the same, hence why I said it was similar. Most are co-use below 5k, but within the active airspace block(s), we operate under the assumption of exclusive use, MARSA with each other. We will, guaranteed, not see you until it is too late. I'd call it a bastard child of a MOA and a restricted area......more controlled than a MOA, but less restricted than a restricted area. I've spent a lot of time in warning areas, and have yet to encounter a single civilian airplane transiting through the active altitude block when it is "hot" (aside from the occasional emergency aircraft), which I would not say for MOA's where non-participating traffic was common (and resulted in much wasted gas and tax dollars). Not saying it can't happen, but in practice, they either go below us, or through portions of the area that are not active. Perhaps folks are generally smart enough to not ignore the advisories :) As a socal example, I'd say that the NAOPA was quite nearly as hair raising as the R2508 (probably the worst in CONUS) was in terms of close calls with other aircraft. Either way, as you know if you worked in CATCC or elsewhere, the boat is absolutely restricted airspace, whether it is in a warning area, or in the open ocean beyond the US airspace structure.
 
Last edited:
Point of contention....I had to correct another Hornet guy I worked with about this. A Warning Area is NOT a Restricted Area. It is more like a MOA over the ocean. GA can (and do) fly through 'Whiskey' areas all the time without talking to anyone.....but, like a MOA, they are taking their lives into their own hands if they choose to do so.

Actually, a Warning Area is more like a Restricted Area than a MOA. Warning Areas and Restricted Areas are established to contain activities hazardous to nonparticipating aircraft. MOAs are established to separate IFR traffic from nonhazardous military training activities. GA can fly through Warning Areas without talking to anyone because they are established where there is no authority to require them to talk to anyone.
 
A US Navy Ship is NOT a restricted area. Especially when operating in US waters. Non-congested rules cover how close you can get to the ship. You think a Carrier Captain can just authorize shooting down a Cessna because it got within 25 miles of his boat? Think again.

Those warning areas are monitored for non participating aircraft. When one comes in your war games stop and you wait for the little guy to leave. As far as wasting fuel and tax dollars, that ship sailed when the exercise was authorized. The military doesn't own the ocean and it's not the civilian aircrafts fault / problem that the Navy has to wait a few minutes to continue it's games.
 
Last edited:
Just as a hypothetical question...what airspace does a carrier own when it is launching and retrieving aircraft at sea, while within the ADIZ?
That's out in international airspace where there are no rules other than the rule about where an 800 lb gorilla gets to sit.

Would there be TFRs in place,
No. Outside US airspace, the FAA cannot impose a TFR.

or the ship operating in a restricted area that goes down to the surface?
Again, outside US airspace there are no R-areas, only "Warning Areas," and those apply only to especially hazardous things going on like air-to-air missile shoots, not routine flight operations. The carrier's flight operations will be going on wherever the carrier is operating, and there is no requirement to stay in W-areas for that.

Or would it be legal to approach the carrier, maintaining visual contact with any aircraft nearby, and remaining at least 500' from the ship per 91.119?
Theoretically, there is no rule on that out there, but I wouldn't advise it -- they will shoot you down if you try to overfly the ship and they think you're hostile. Think USS Cole, and they do have rules of engagement which cover such possibilities.

I doubt they'd appreciate it, and wouldn't want to be a target of the CIWS gun, but what prevents it?
Captain's characterization of CIWS is a bit off, and it could be used against a slow-mover, but they'd do a lot of other things to warn you off before hosing you.

In any event, if you happen to be out there, just give the carrier a wide berth unless you've coordinated your operation with the folks in AW/Strike beforehand.
 
A US Navy Ship is NOT a restricted area. Especially when operating in US waters. Non-congested rules cover how close you can get to the ship. You think a Carrier Captain can just authorize shooting down a Cessna because it got within 25 miles of his boat? Think again.
The command authority on the carrier (ship's captain or embarked flag) can indeed authorize the shooting down of a Cessna within the established rules of engagement (ROE). I'm not privvy to that classified material any more, although I'm pretty sure it would take rather more than a sub-25nm closest point of approach (CPA) at 120 knots to trigger them. However, I guarantee that there is the authority on the ship to order a shoot-down of even a Cessna 150 if it acts hostile enough and fails to heed all the warnings it would be given before reaching the ship.

Those warning areas are monitored for non participating aircraft. When one comes in your war games stop and you wait for the little guy to leave. As far as wasting fuel and tax dollars, that ship sailed when the exercise was authorized. The military doesn't own the ocean and it's not the civilian aircrafts fault / problem that the Navy has to wait a few minutes to continue it's games.
Notwithstanding the attitude issues, Captain fails to recognize that once a missile is launched, it cannot be called back. Also, radar coverage may not be complete within the area. In addition, there are reaction times from when the aircraft enters the area to when a "cease fire" call can be given. Flying into an active W-area without prior coordination is downright stupid and potentially fatal.
 
I am VERY familiar with CWIS. It CANNOT shoot a slow mover and that's a fact. I've served on two US Navy ships and worked in CIC on both. I was ESWS qualified. Of the first my shop was right next to the FC shack (FCs owned and maintained CIWS) and the system was discussed at length.


CIWS (Close In Weapon System):
The system is an anti missile defence system. CIWS doesn't even protect the ship, it protects itself. It has 3 onboard radars for each mount and they feed into a central system to control functions, arming and targeting priority. It shoots depleted uranium rounds. As a result, per the Geneiva Convention as I recall, CIWS cannot be used against personnel.

The three radars in each system are used for target acquisition, target tracking and (believe it or not)...bullet tracking. In the dome attop the installation there is a circular scan search radar. It goes round and round looking for targets. It sends these targets to a central computer where target prioritisation takes place. In order to even be considered a threat the target has to be closing the CIWS search radar at a substantial speed...over 300 kts. A target at Mach 5 but parallel to to ship isn't going to do it. You must CLOSE the radar (ship) by over 300 kts to even be considered a threat.

Once the central system classifies a target as a threat it will prioritise and assign a mount to take it down if the system is armed. If multiple threats it generally takes the closest one first. However, it is possible for a faster target further out to be considered the primary target. That's just part of the PFM.

Once a mount has been assigned a target it spins and aligns itself with the target. This is where the other two radars come into play. A targeting radar locks onto the target and keeps the mount pointed at it. There are mechanical stops to keep the mount from shooting own ship rigging and structures. There is a third radar that tracks the bullet stream leaving the mount. The system, on a shot by shot basis, makes minor correction to the aiming to constantly, shot by shot, work to close the gap between the target coming in and the bullets going out.

To test the system they get a Lear jet with a towed drone to over fly the ship. I've personally watched over a dozen of these exercises from CIC and above deck. The Lear jet over flies the ship and as soon as it is directly overhead word is given to the operator in CIC to 'Arm' the system. When this happens CIWS turns on and sees two contacts: the Lear Jet outbound and the drone inbound. Guess what it shoots at? The CLOSEING TARGET. There is no possibility of it shooting the Lear Jet. The only way the Lear could get shot down is if the operator arms the system too early and great effort is taken to ensure that DOESN'T happen.

I spew very little crap here. Mostly what I say I know as fact and I'll admit when I may over step. But on this I am quite certain...there is NO WAY for CIWS to shoot down a GA plane.
 
Last edited:
The command authority on the carrier (ship's captain or embarked flag) can indeed authorize the shooting down of a Cessna within the established rules of engagement (ROE). I'm not privvy to that classified material any more, although I'm pretty sure it would take rather more than a sub-25nm closest point of approach (CPA) at 120 knots to trigger them. However, I guarantee that there is the authority on the ship to order a shoot-down of even a Cessna 150 if it acts hostile enough and fails to heed all the warnings it would be given before reaching the ship.

Notwithstanding the attitude issues, Captain fails to recognize that once a missile is launched, it cannot be called back. Also, radar coverage may not be complete within the area. In addition, there are reaction times from when the aircraft enters the area to when a "cease fire" call can be given. Flying into an active W-area without prior coordination is downright stupid and potentially fatal.

Attitude issues?

The guy asked if there's restricted airspace around a carrier. There isn't. Show me where there is if you don't agree.

If a carrier is steaming out of San Diego port and a Cessna pilot wants to check it out all he has to do is honor the FARs. He not going to be shot down.

When carriers are in war games they are not close to in range of Cessna traffic. A Cessna couldn't get to them to cause a problem. They generally keep their ops schedule under wrap so the vast majority wouldn't even know the exercise is taking place.

You speak of acting hostil towards the carrier? Yes, dive bombing the ship would get you in trouble, but then you're violating the FARs which I refrenced. Seeing a carrier just out of the channel and flying over it at 1,500' isn't going to get anyone shot down.

Not attitude, fact.
 
Last edited:
Attitude issues?
Yes -- your statement that US Navy training exercises are "games," and the implication that the money spent on them is wasted, and that it should not be a concern of a nonparticipating pilot if s/he forces a termination of such an exercise at great expense to the taxpayers as well as the loss of the training for the participants.
 
However, I guarantee that there is the authority on the ship to order a shoot-down of even a Cessna 150 if it acts hostile enough and fails to heed all the warnings it would be given before reaching the ship.
Correct, it is referred to as the Commander's 'inherent right of self defense'

Notwithstanding the attitude issues, Captain fails to recognize that once a missile is launched, it cannot be called back.
Maybe yes, maybe no.....depends on the particular missle system. Some can be remote destructed after launch, others are fire and forget/regret.

Flying into an active W-area without prior coordination is downright stupid and potentially fatal.
Fully agree
 
Maybe yes, maybe no.....depends on the particular missle system. Some can be remote destructed after launch,
No such capability in air-to-air or surface-to-air missile systems. Once that 'winder is off the rail, it's going for the heat. Just ask the USAF RF-4C crew that was accidentally shot down by a US Navy F-14 back in 1987 (search on "Vodka 51," the Phantom's call sign, for details).
 
No such capability in air-to-air or surface-to-air missile systems. Once that 'winder is off the rail, it's going for the heat. Just ask the USAF RF-4C crew that was accidentally shot down by a US Navy F-14 back in 1987 (search on "Vodka 51," the Phantom's call sign, for details).
SM-2 - the current preferred Surface-to Air missile these days. A little after your time:wink2:, but with the standard missile, you can ineed break-engage after the missile has left the launcher.

I can't recall, but Sea Sparrow may have a remote destruct capability as well. You are correct about the Sidewinder and RAM (surface launched version) as well.
 
SM-2 - the current preferred Surface-to Air missile these days. A little after your time:wink2:, but with the standard missile, you can ineed break-engage after the missile has left the launcher.
Right, for semi-active homers -- you could also do that with a Sparrow by killing the illuminator, at which point it went ballistic (but could still kill something if it passed close enough to trigger the proximity fuse). But no remotely activated "self-destruct" capability.
 
A US Navy Ship is NOT a restricted area. Especially when operating in US waters. Non-congested rules cover how close you can get to the ship. You think a Carrier Captain can just authorize shooting down a Cessna because it got within 25 miles of his boat? Think again.

Those warning areas are monitored for non participating aircraft. When one comes in your war games stop and you wait for the little guy to leave. As far as wasting fuel and tax dollars, that ship sailed when the exercise was authorized. The military doesn't own the ocean and it's not the civilian aircrafts fault / problem that the Navy has to wait a few minutes to continue it's games.

I'm not talking about shooting anyone down, hence why I mentioned "escort". When the CVN is underway at sea, it enforces it's own protective airspace. This doesn't mean shooting anyone; it's a big reason we fly DCA (Defensive Counter Air). It may not be a "restricted area" in the eyes of the FAA, or the ICAO, but it is a sovereign piece of US "soil" anywhere it goes in the world, so we protect it. Again, not talking about shooting anyone here, but you would be intercepted and escorted.

As for "interlopers" (as ATC calls them) in warning areas or MOA's, I bring up the wasted tax dollars because it is actually a big deal. Not even talking about ship operations here, just flying from the beach. When you call a KIO for 15 aircraft, have them all flow back to their ends of the area, and reset the fight, you probably have just cost each aircraft 2000+ lbs of fuel, and one very valuable and expensive look at a realistic combat scenario. So that's maybe 30,000 lbs of fuel, or maybe $20k+ of wasted money. Then consider that this entire exercise may have been for just one guy's checkride, and now he potentially will have to fly it again because he wasn't able to see all the things that were required of the flight. That's probably $100k for the incomplete flight, and probably another $100k for the re-fly, and that is just fuel costs. Happens more than you would think, and is pretty easily preventable. You are absolutely right that we don't own the airspace, but around CONUS, there are often many ways to avoid doing this, without also putting yourself in danger.
 
If a carrier is steaming out of San Diego port and a Cessna pilot wants to check it out all he has to do is honor the FARs. He not going to be shot down.

When carriers are in war games they are not close to in range of Cessna traffic. A Cessna couldn't get to them to cause a problem. They generally keep their ops schedule under wrap so the vast majority wouldn't even know the exercise is taking place.

Both true points. CVN's travel to and from port in US waters with heavy security presence (police boats, helos, etc), but obviously they can't just send everyone around it that close to US airspace.
 
Yes -- your statement that US Navy training exercises are "games," and the implication that the money spent on them is wasted, and that it should not be a concern of a nonparticipating pilot if s/he forces a termination of such an exercise at great expense to the taxpayers as well as the loss of the training for the participants.

As a participent in those US Navy training exercises I recall we all (Ships Captain right down to new deck seamen) called them 'war games'.

As to the warning areas; they are way the hell out there. They hold them is places that are baren and remote. There just aren't any many folks that can or would wander out there. If they did (1 in a million shot) they would be identified. When the 'N' number was obtained they would certianly NOT be shot down, or escorted, or what ever. If I'm John Travolta and I choose to fly my 707 200 miles off shore to go whale watching at 5,000' then I have just as much right to do so as the Navy has a right to conduct their 'war games'. I can not act aggressive towards the CVN. I'm not saying I can. But I can fly around and loiter and even see the boat and check it out. Maybe I even come up on 121.5 and announce my intentions and they can announce theirs.

To the point of 'wasted tax dollars'. Okay, I'm Johnny T. in my 707. I go whale watching at some Lat / Long and screw up the Navy's 'war game'. What's the resolution? I have to leave international waters and abandon my activity? No. We're both in a spot we are allowed to be. They can change their exercise to not affect me or they can wait. But they can't go shooting missiles across my flight path or escort me away or whatever they want. I'm doing NOTHING wrong. Good news for the military though, that almost NEVER happens and their games go off without incident.

Point is, a warning area is not a place I'm not allowed to go and the military can't just go and shoot me down for going there.

No such capability in air-to-air or surface-to-air missile systems. Once that 'winder is off the rail, it's going for the heat. Just ask the USAF RF-4C crew that was accidentally shot down by a US Navy F-14 back in 1987 (search on "Vodka 51," the Phantom's call sign, for details).


I have personally been on the deck of the USS Benfold (DDG-65) and watched an SM-2 (that's a surface to air missile btw) get self destructed after launch from my ship.
 
Last edited:
I have personally been on the deck of the USS Benfold (DDG-65) and watched an SM-2 (that's a surface to air missile btw) get self destructed after launch from my ship.
That was I was talking about. It has been almost 10 years since I sat at an Aegis console, but I'm pretty sure when you hit break-engage, the missile destructs.
 
That was I was talking about. It has been almost 10 years since I sat at an Aegis console, but I'm pretty sure when you hit break-engage, the missile destructs.

I'm not exactly sure how it's done. I wasn't an FC and I was on deck smoking a cigarette when I saw it blow up. But I do know it can be done because I saw it.

The story is this;

I was part of the commissioning crew of the Benfold. After The Navy took the boat from Ingles Shipyard in Pascagoula MS. we sailed to San Diego. Got to transit the Panama Canal too. That was cool, but I digress.

After a few weeks in San Diego we went up the coast and got loaded out. A week or two later we headed for Hawaii. There is a missile test facility out there. They fly remote drones over the ship and we fire SM-2's at them to test out the systems of the ship.

We never launched any Tomahawks or Harpoons as they are wicked expensive. We did test all the other systems. CIWS (read above for how that works), Chaff launchers (that was my deal), 5" gun, and I think torpedoes (but I could be wrong on that...I don't actually remember any fish hitting the water specifically).

Anyhoo, while testing the VLS (vertical launch system) I was out having my smoke. Drone was inbound and we fired an SM-2. I had by this point already seen a few go. They normally go straight up a few hundred feet or so (hard to tell from the surface) and then arc over and acquire the target...either low on the surface or high altitude.

Well, this particular shot the SM-2 cleared the launcher but it was immediately obvious something was different. It wasn't flying straight. It was going up more or less straight but it was cork screwing its way up. We all watched an wondered what it was going to do.

Well, it got pretty high and while we were wondering it exploded. It took half a beat for the sound to reach us. At first we were concerned that it would fall back on the boat, but it was quickly apparent that the ship was moving fast enough for that to not be a factor.

We heard later that that SM-2 had been self destructed from CIC.
 
Last edited:
btw, for the skeptical out there, here's proof of my tale:

Plank%2520Owner%2520blanked.jpg
 
As a participent in those US Navy training exercises I recall we all (Ships Captain right down to new deck seamen) called them 'war games'.
Regardless of what you may have called them, they are expensive training exercises interrupted only at great cost in both resources and training, both of which will result in decreased combat capability. If you care about this country, you will not take such a cavalier attitude about interrupting them.

As to the warning areas; they are way the hell out there.
Humbug. W-areas begin just a few miles off the coast, in some cases straddling Victor airways.

As for self-destruct, it may exist on the SM-2, or it may not -- I'm not up on that system. But it definitely does not exist on any air-launched missiles, and the W-areas are where the Navy and USAF launch them for training and tests. Further, while you could always kill the illuminator on the old Sparrow and send it ballistic, you can't turn off the IR seeker on a Sidewinder, and the AMRAAM has its own active seeker -- both of them are "fire and forget."

So stay the heck out of active W-areas!
 
Oh, so it's a patriotic thing and not a rule thing. Okay...

They should do that with all the rules. Hey, no drinking within 8 hours of flying or you're unAmerican. Don't fly East at an even altitude or you're not a patriot.

Look Ron, I don't fly out there. Nobody does really. It's not an issue. Folks flying small planes do so mostly up and down the coast. Folks flying large equipment file IFR and are kept on the airways. Very few among us could even afford to gas up a plane large enough and truck out there low enough to be a problem. It's a non-issue.

BUT, if I had the means and desire to go whale watching 500 miles off shore at a low altitude I'd do it. Your claim that I'm somehow degrading our combat effectiveness is absurd at best. There is no rule against going into warning areas. You and I have every bit as much of a right to be there as the US military...or foreign military...or sea gulls...or whales.

And yes, those few missiles you mentioned are fire and forget. No one took issue with those. You said 'all surface to air' and that is wrong. You also said CWIS can target slow movers and that too is wrong.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top