Training in DA-20 or 172?

livitup

livitup

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livitup
So something interesting has come up as I work on picking a flight school...

One semi-local school has a DA20 in their rental fleet (steam gauges). I'm really drawn to the Diamond planes in general, I'm going to go spend an hour in it next week, but I have a feeling I'm going to like it a lot more than a 172. On top of that, it's $5 cheaper per hour than the cheapest 172 near me. :wink2:

But... They only have the one DA20, and about 10 various 172s in the fleet. I envision that sometimes the DA will be reserved, or in maintenance, or have some other aviation gremlin, at the same time I'm planning a lesson. If I stick with 172s for training, I've got virtually unlimited access (they have something like 15 total over 3 local airports).

So... Here's the question. Would it be problematic to switch between the DA and a 172 during my training? Or should I stick with 172s for training, and then afterwards check out on the DA and fly it for fun? Or stick with the DA for training, even if it means postponing or rescheduling a lesson?

Decisions, decisions... :dunno:
 
For training, I'd pick one and stick with it. I think the DA20 is even more benign than the 172, and maybe you can try some spin entries with it. It's fun, like flying a Miata. On the other hand, the 172 is ubiquitous and more utilitarian. Depending on your build, you may want to physically sit in each before deciding.

livitup said:
Or should I stick with 172s for training, and then afterwards check out on the DA and fly it for fun?
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This is what I did. You can also probably get some G1000 time with the 172. You can always transition to the DA20 afterwards in a couple of hours.
 
I'd train on the 172 for no other reason than you have a more ample supply of them, plus you will already be familar with it after your training. While the DA20 might be a fun plane to fly, you aren't going to end up flying one much after you get your ticket as it's too limiting in weight and range. You'll fly 172's, DA40's and/or something more capable.

(And I don't fit well in either DA20's or C152's)
 
I learned at a school that had both C172's and 3 DA20's. I chose the DA20 for no other reason that it looked cool on the ramp and had more modern equipment on the panel.

Now, since more C172's are available as a rental option, and the local club has a C182, I kinda wish I had gone with the C172 as my primary trainer.

The DA20 is a great airplane to learn in (especially speed control on final. 5kts too fast and you're really floating for a ways down the runway), but Sac Arrow's point of going with the C172's because they are more available is valid.

If the retnal cost between the two is negligible, then go with the C172.
 
I learned in a DA20. Fun plane. HOT in the summer. I haven't flown it much since I got my certificate. I flew it twice, I think. Now I own part of a 177B. There was some transition time, but not too much.

Who knows what you are going to fly after you get your certificate. You might learn in a 172, and then later have a Piper deal fall in your lap. Unless you know what you are going to be flying after you get your certificate, my advice would be to choose what is cheapest, and most convenient. In this case, it sounds like they aren't the same. So ask yourself whether the extra dollars per hour makes up for the lack of availability. You may need to investigate how booked up the DA 20 is.
 
So... Here's the question. Would it be problematic to switch between the DA and a 172 during my training?
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I would select one and stick with it all the way through. The particulars of how they operate and fly are different enough that the risk of confusion is too great.

One of the unspoken goals of learning to fly is to develop the correct muscle memory. Permitting you to instinctually respond to something without having to remember and think what to do.

The layout, flows, and response of the aircraft are different enough that learning both will just add to your load and your expense of learning to fly. It can be done, but be prepared for the extra flight and instructor time to accomplish knowing both.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I'd train on the 172 for no other reason than you have a more ample supply of them, plus you will already be familar with it after your training.
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This.

Mainly for the reasons that as stated above, there are a ton of them out there. It would suck to have the DA20 down for maintenance and have to make a choice between halting your training until its back up or having to cross train to a C172.
 
I'd pick a DA20 any day over a 172.

I got my PPL in a DA20 and I think it's one of the best planes for training. While a 172 handle like a truck DA20 handle like a sports car tuned for handling. To date it's the best handling plane I've even flown (excluding aerobatics stuff).

C172s are very forgiving, if you screw up the plane fixes it and you don't even know about it. For training I think that this is a bad characteristic because after you finish your training you likely to switch to something else, and that something else will bite you in the ass because it will be a lot less forgiving. DA20 is also an easy plane to fly but if you screw up it will let you know.

Spotting traffic will be significantly easier in a DA20 because you have a large bauble canopy. That huge Cessna wing and "roof pillars" are not there to block large portions of the sky.
On the other hand DA20 is harder to spot for other people. A C172 looks boxy on the outside and that is not a natural shape so it stands out, DA20 is a lot rounder and that makes it blend in more. Also DA20's thin tail and a see though cockpit make it harder to spot.

DA20 is significantly safer. The airframe is a lot more crash worthy and the seats are a part of the main frame for increased structural integrity.
I've read an NTSB reports where a student pilot on his 2nd solo hit a sign and ripped half of the wing off. After that he did three more patterns and brought the plane back. I don't know too many planes that would be so easy to fly with such damage.

If you are not convinced that a DA20 is better than I recommend you take it up for one lesson and after that take a C172 up, you'll see a significant difference.

After you get your PPL if you choose to fly a 172 (because there are more of them) the transition will not be very easy but it wont be hard either. Those are completely different airframes with completely different engines. However Cessna is not very hard to fly so the transition should take 2-3 hours. I don't think that's very long.

So go for the Diamond. :thumbsup:
 
I learned to fly in an archer and 172 and swapped back and forth almost pretty often depending on availability. I don't think it slowed down my progression much and when I passed my checkride, either was available without a checkout.

The da20 will be more fun and also may prepare you more for HP a/c that require speed control like someone else mentioned. I have about an hour in the da20 and it was an easy transition.
 
I'd go with the 172. Although the DA-20 is undoubtedly cooler, you will be frustrated up the wazoo when your flights get canceled because it's the only plane you're flying and the guy before you left the master on and drained the battery...and the mechanic is out that week and can't jump the plane. Or something else like that.
 
In my opinion, the real fun starts when you have your PPL. So for now you should concentrate on getting your certificate as quickly as possible. There is absolutely no doubt that it will be quicker if you stick to the 172 because that lone DA20 will not always be available. Get the PPL out of the way, then you can fly the DA20, or DA40 or whatever you want as much as you like.

If you told me that you had found a school with 20 DA20's and only one 172 I would be saying to go with the DA20's. It is less about the plane and more about availability.
 
Regarding availability are you in a hurry to get your PPL?
If you got time and your okay with 1 or 2 flights being canceled go for the Diamond, if you want to get your PPL in two weeks go for the 172.
 
MachFly said:
Regarding availability are you in a hurry to get your PPL?
If you got time and your okay with 1 or 2 flights being canceled go for the Diamond, if you want to get your PPL in two weeks go for the 172.
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A lot of great opinions here, and I thank everyone for chiming in.

I have time on my hands, but I'm worried about the loss of knowledge from missing a lesson. I've read over and over again, that the more you fly, and the shorter the interval between lessons, the better things are. If I start training on the DA, and then it goes down for a month for annual, then do I skip a month of training, or transition to the 172?

As much as I want to "play in the fun plane" I think that Mike and GauzeGuy said it best... train on old reliable, and then have fun after. The other advantage that occurred to me is that if I ever want to rent a plane anywhere except my "home" FBO, it will probably be a 172, so it would be good to have the hours in them.

I'm sure the DA would make a great trainer, but with only one of them available, I don't think it's the right situation. After PPL, I'll check out on their 20, and whenever I want to go for a $100 hamburger, I can rent it.

Thanks for helping me keep it real!
 
AEROBAT said:
Fly what you think you will buy.
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There are two problems with this. First when you start your flight training you don't know enough about airplanes to be able to make a correct choice of what to buy. Second a lot of people end up buying an airplane that is not a trainer in any way, therefore they need to train on something simpler.
 
livitup said:
If I start training on the DA, and then it goes down for a month for annual, then do I skip a month of training, or transition to the 172?
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This is a good point. I'm not trying to convince you to fly a Diamond, however if you really do want to fly it and the only reason why your going into a 172 is because your afraid that something might happen to the only Diamond I recommend you do the following.

Go to the school (don't do this over the phone) and ask them when the previous inspections were done. This will give you an idea when the next annual inspection will need to be done, if it's not in the next 6 month then your good. Find out how many hours does this plane gets on average per week, this will give you an idea of when the next 100 hour inspection will need to be done. I do not remember whether or not DA20s need 1000 and 2000 hour inspections (other Diamonds do) so ask about those as well. DA20 is a pretty strong airplane with few systems so the odds that something will "just break" are low.
I think with this information you will be able to make a much better decision of whether you want to do your primary training in it or not.

I have seen a number of schools that have whole bunch of C172s and Cherokees and one different type of airplane that is usually superior to the whole fleet (usually Cirrus or Diamond). That one airplane usually sits in the hangar and flies once a week if not more rare. This is party because it's a bit more expensive but mostly because it is the only plane of this type, so everyone thinks that they want a to fly a type of plane that the school has a lot of for the same reasons as you do and that one plane ends up sitting there always available.
It is possible that they got the same thing going on with the Diamond, find out.
 
MachFly said:
That one airplane usually sits in the hangar and flies once a week if not more rare. This is party because it's a bit more expensive but mostly because it is the only plane of this type, so everyone thinks that they want a to fly a type of plane that the school has a lot of for the same reasons as you do and that one plane ends up sitting there always available.
It is possible that they got the same thing going on with the Diamond, find out.
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That's the story with the Archer at my school. It just sits there.

As for different planes in training, it depends on how quickly you are learning the ropes. If you're a swift learner and you adapt well to flying, I think you'd be okay to bounce back and forth. I flew one lesson in the Piper and it didn't slow me down in the slightest. The only thing that slowed me down was the initial preflight. It was otherwise a piece of cake.
 
The diamond should not be down for a month for an annual. Besides, it gets a 100 hour inspection because it is commerically provided for flight training. The 100 hour is essentially the same inspection. They can't afford to allow a plane to be down for a month every time it needs an inspection. I never once couldn't fly because the plane was down for inspection. I would fly on Sunday, and see that it needed the inspection. When I came back the next weekend, she was done and ready to go.

Again, I would check the schedule of the Diamond to see how available it is. Also, if you can be a little flexible in your timing, it might not be an issue. Where I trained, there was only one DA 20 available. Sometimes I couldn't go at 9 because it was booked, so I had to wait until 11. Oh well. Other times I couldn't go Thursday, so I went Friday. I could move things around, so it wasn't that big of a deal. I just learned to schedule my time early, so I didn't have any problems. Also, bear in mind that you probably will do most of your flying with one instructor. If he's already booked, it won't matter if there are 10 172s on the line.
 
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PPC1052 said:
Again, I would check the schedule of the Diamond to see how available it is. Also, if you can be a little flexible in your timing, it might not be an issue.
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You've almost got me convinced. Assuming that I will want to fly 172s from a random local FBO (the school with the DA is a bit further away, so after my training I will likely rent elsewhere), how hard would the transition from DA to 172 be? Is it realistic to stay "proficient" in both?
 
livitup said:
You've almost got me convinced. Assuming that I will want to fly 172s from a random local FBO (the school with the DA is a bit further away, so after my training I will likely rent elsewhere), how hard would the transition from DA to 172 be? Is it realistic to stay "proficient" in both?
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It's an easy transition and yes of course you can be proficient in both. But I wouldn't switch back and forth during your PPL. You will have enough other things to deal with and learn besides remembering two sets of flight procedures and V speeds.

If you find it necessary to fly both during your PPL just for the fun of it that's fine, but focus most of your efforts in the plane you plan on taking your checkride in. That will probably be a 172.
 
Hard decision.

I flown C172s and a DA40. Have no experience with DA20. I trained in PA28, soloed in C152, flown C172 for a checkride, so maybe I am not the perfect example. But I found that DA40 requires more attention, and is less forgiving. I think from DA20, transition to C172 would be easy, since you are somewhat "stepping down" (and I am sure some people would disagree with me there).

One thing you can try is to mix it during training. I had no issues mixing Piper and Cessna during my dual and solo.

If DA20 is anything like DA40, you would love it.
 
You'll want to check out in both eventually, however to chose a primary I would choose the DA-20. The Continental powered ones performed better and the Falcon ones were rigged with a right side panel for left handed throttle they'll be flying first off in the AF. The 912 a1 models are ok if you and your instructor are both light.
 
livitup said:
You've almost got me convinced. Assuming that I will want to fly 172s from a random local FBO (the school with the DA is a bit further away, so after my training I will likely rent elsewhere), how hard would the transition from DA to 172 be? Is it realistic to stay "proficient" in both?
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You should really try to stick to one during training. After that, You probably won't really want to try maintain proficiency in both. Not because its a bad idea, but just because you won't feel the need to. You will probably find that one type will fill the vast majority of your needs/desires in the hours immediately after you get your certificate. The worst thing that will happen if you switch as a low time pilot is that the landings may be a little rough. But you'll be fine. Regardless of which way you go, you need to be a perfectionist on air speeds on final, but the Diamond will really give you fits getting that soft touchdown where you want to when you do not nail the airspeed on final. That's a good thing--it will teach you good habits.

It was an additional 3 hours to get checked out by the FBO for the 172 as a newly minted private pilot.

Insurance required 5 dual instruction for me to fly the 177B at about 70 hours total time.
 
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