Training in a tail dragger

[Staggermania]

Hello Everyone!

I'm new to this site, and am planning on starting pilot training in the summer.
My question is this - I would like to learn in a tail-dragger. Is this allowed? Also, if so, then I am thinking about purchasing a tail-dragger to receive my instruction in. Any opinions on a suitable and relatively inexpensive aircraft? I've been looking at Cessna 140's and 170's.

Thanks
Brett

 

[Silvaire]

Yes it's allowed. If you can afford a decent 170 that's an airplane that would provide the utility to serve most missions including long cross country's with a companion and baggage.

 

[JB1842]

I trained in a taildragger. Lots of people had. Finding a taildragger to train in is the hard part. My next plane is a 170, I hope. More speed, more useful load, more versatility, IMO.

 

[James331]

Hello Everyone!

I'm new to this site, and am planning on starting pilot training in the summer.
My question is this - I would like to learn in a tail-dragger. Is this allowed? Also, if so, then I am thinking about purchasing a tail-dragger to receive my instruction in. Any opinions on a suitable and relatively inexpensive aircraft? I've been looking at Cessna 140's and 170's.

Thanks
Brett

YES!!!

It's preferred, you'll build a MUCH better foundation.

I learned how to fly in a 7AC Champ, you will be much better for it.

I'd go with the 140, save money and it'll teach you all the fundamentals.

Just find a CFI that's worth a damn in the thing

 

[topsail]

I have a friend whose 14 yo daughter can land his Husky as well as I can. Go for it. P

 

[pigpenracing]

Depends on what you want to do. Look at Decathlons, Cubs, Piper Clipper... It is lots more fun flying a plane with a stick and not a yoke. You want a fun airplane or a traveling airplane?

 

[frfly172]

Go for it,and good luck.

 

[Neal Howard]

Welcome to PoA!

Absolutely, learning how to fly in a taildragger is allowed and lots of folks have learned to fly in C140s and C170s. The hardest part will be finding a CFI with ample experience in type to be sufficiently qualified to give you primary training in one of these models. I took my first couple of tailwheel lessons in a C140 but already had my PP-ASEL and several hundred hours in a Cherokee.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

It's not even hard.

 

[Staggermania]

Holy Smokes!
Thanks for all the input everyone! I wasn't expecting so many replies so quickly. I am thinking that the 140 might be the way to go for now. I like the 170, but they seem to be a little more expensive than the 140. Although perhaps I'll just wait until January to start my training, as that will be when EAA will be delivering the J-3 sweepstakes plane that I plan on winning.
I would like to fly a plane with a stick, rather than a yoke, but at this point, you know what they say, beggars can't be choosers. I'd like to be around 20-25k.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

Either a 140 or a 170 will do just fine. The 140 would be a bit cheaper to purchase and to operate while the 170 would make a better cross country airplane since it's a little faster and will haul more load. Keep in mind that up until somewhere in the late '50s/early '60s virtually everybody learned in a taildragger. Like a couple upthread have already stated; the hard part today might be to find an instructor that's really qualified to teach in a tailwheel airplane.

 

[hook_dupin]

I love teaching Tailwheel!

One limitation I've found: there are quite a few conventional airplanes that can't complete all the task areas on the PTS.

I've thought about teaching everything in a Champ/Citabria except the instrument work, then using a Skyhawk for that. I haven't yet wanted my students to take two airplanes to a checkride.

 

[Tom-D]

Hello Everyone!

I'm new to this site, and am planning on starting pilot training in the summer.
My question is this - I would like to learn in a tail-dragger. Is this allowed? Also, if so, then I am thinking about purchasing a tail-dragger to receive my instruction in. Any opinions on a suitable and relatively inexpensive aircraft? I've been looking at Cessna 140's and 170's.

Thanks
Brett

You should also look for an Aeronca champ, I just so happen have one that is for sale. No electric, hand held radio, it ain't pretty but it flys great. at 85 MPH. a lot of folks learned in a champ. 4-5 gallons per hour auto, cheapest flying You can do. Champ

e-mail Norm at normanewood@comcast.net

 

[peerlesscowboy]

You should also look for an Aeronca champ, I just so happen have one that is for sale. No electric, hand held radio, it ain't pretty but it flys great. at 85 MPH. a lot of folks learned in a champ. 4-5 gallons per hour auto, cheapest flying You can do. Champ

e-mail Norm at --brb.

Yeah but; you couldn't perform all the tasks required on the private pilot checkride.

 

[Tom-D]

Yes it's allowed. If you can afford a decent 170 that's an airplane that would provide the utility to serve most missions including long cross country's with a companion and baggage.

A decent 170 is $40 grand to start. some rag wings in the 20's but the cheap ones are the ones are the ones you can't afford.

 

[Tom-D]

I trained in a taildragger. Lots of people had. Finding a taildragger to train in is the hard part. My next plane is a 170, I hope. More speed, more useful load, more versatility, IMO.

You need to join the 170 association and keep your ear to the ground.

 

[Tom-D]

Holy Smokes!
Thanks for all the input everyone! I wasn't expecting so many replies so quickly. I am thinking that the 140 might be the way to go for now. I like the 170, but they seem to be a little more expensive than the 140. Although perhaps I'll just wait until January to start my training, as that will be when EAA will be delivering the J-3 sweepstakes plane that I plan on winning.
I would like to fly a plane with a stick, rather than a yoke, but at this point, you know what they say, beggars can't be choosers. I'd like to be around 20-25k.

The 140 market is at the top of the heap. they actually bring a better prices than the average 170. simply because most have already been restored and polished, and command $35-45K.

You'd do well watching the market to find a 48/170 rag wing that is in great condition at 25-30K, but be careful they do not have the instrument panel space to incorporate many radios so having the gear to pass the PPL practical.

OBTW I have owned 4 of them. IMHO the 48 is the best of the bunch. they will land anywhere a "B" will and get out of any where they land. the "B" won't.

 

[Tom-D]

Yeah but; you couldn't perform all the tasks required on the private pilot checkride.

If a champ won't do it, why will a 140 do it? the equipment is the same. just because the 140 has an electric system doesn't mean the equipment required is installed. many are basically VFR equipped.

 

[warthog1984]

If a champ won't do it, why will a 140 do it? the equipment is the same. just because the 140 has an electric system doesn't mean the equipment required is installed. many are basically VFR equipped.

And others are (technically) IFR-capable with a NAV/COM pair, VOR, and 6 pack. Would I take them through LIFR- no. But, they are equipped for the checkride.

 

[docmirror]

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_919565_PA22_20+Pacer+150+HP.html

You'll thank me later. Better economy than a 170, same field capability, a little harder to land, but not that hard. Similar loads, and it's classy.

 

[Tom-D]

And others are (technically) IFR-capable with a NAV/COM pair, VOR, and 6 pack. Would I take them through LIFR- no. But, they are equipped for the checkride.

You do not have room in the 120/140 instrument panel to do that. I have never seen any 120/140 with a 6 pac. and very few with nav gear.

One must be real world, these aircraft are becoming collector items and the more pristine the better.

 

[Tom-D]

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_919565_PA22_20+Pacer+150+HP.html

You'll thank me later. Better economy than a 170, same field capability, a little harder to land, but not that hard. Similar loads, and it's classy.

You better be on the top of your game to land a milk stool in a stiff cross wind.

Cessna didn't run away with sales for the period for nothing

 

[warthog1984]

You do not have room in the 120/140 instrument panel to do that. I have never seen any 120/140 with a 6 pac. and very few with nav gear.

You do if it's a 150 panel retrofit. And I've flown a 140 that had that very setup (single NAV/COM pair, VOR head, 6 pack) and was used for PPL, IR, and CFI training.

High workload, certainly; still legal though.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

You do not have room in the 120/140 instrument panel to do that. I have never seen any 120/140 with a 6 pac. and very few with nav gear.

One must be real world, these aircraft are becoming collector items and the more pristine the better.

The 120 I learned in had gyros (turn / bank and horizon), and a nav-com radio (Narco Escort 110 - yes it was a long time ago). What else do you need?

 

[JB1842]

You need to join the 170 association and keep your ear to the ground.

I already look on their board every few days.

 

[Silvaire]

...I would like to fly a plane with a stick, rather than a yoke, but at this point, you know what they say, beggars can't be choosers. I'd like to be around 20-25k.

In that case a Champ is probably your best bet because they are relative bargains. I found my '58 7EC parked at the end of an airport in the desert forlorn and nearly forgotten and got it for next to nothing. A bit of elbow grease and an oil change brought it back to life which was over five years and 700 trouble free hours ago.

The 7AC's are a bit more currently due to being Sport Pilot eligible but that will change if the 3rd class medical reform goes through so I'd say look for a 7EC - 90 hp and full electrical system. Hand propping is nostalgic but kind of a PITA if you travel around. It's hard to find anyone to swing your prop because people are so scared to death of everything nowadays.

I put a radio, transponder and GPS in mine and have taken it everywhere. So long as you aren't in a hurry, took me 17 hours round trip to fly to my brother's place in Utah

 

[JB1842]

You might also take a look at a Luscombe if a 2-seater is all you need.

 

[colojo]

I heartily recommend that you learn in a taildragger if you can. IMHO, they're just more fun. I got my tailwheel endorsement after nearly 30 years of flying and strongly regret I didn't do it earlier, if not at the beginning. Flying stick and rudder is absolutely a blast.

 

[RoscoeT]

Hand propping is nostalgic but kind of a PITA if you travel around. It's hard to find anyone to swing your prop because people are so scared to death of everything nowadays.

Nobody goes looking for people to prop them. I carried chocks, used common sense, and never had a bit of trouble propping any of my airplanes by myself over the years. It's not a PITA at all, but I guess that's relative and depends on your frame of reference. I have NEVER tried to find some random person to swing my prop. I only let people prop me that I knew personally, and that I knew were competent. I've seen some 950 lb. 7EC's loaded up with electrical junk, bigger motors, and they are still pigs. A light non-elec. 7AC with even 65 hp is a much better flying and more fun airplane. OP, don't be swayed at all from hand propping.

 

[Silvaire]

Nobody goes looking for people to prop them...

Exactly what I said. Thirty years ago the kid at the pumps would always swing your prop for you but nowadays you'll not find anyone unless you're at a Luscombe fly-in or something.

As for Champs, I've had both and the 90 horse WAY out-flys the 65. It's just flat out a better plane that you can take pretty much anywhere.

 

[Stewartb]

Anyone looking to acquire an airplane in the $20-25K range needs to focus on condition more than type. Buy the best airplane that you can afford. Spending more on a better plane is more cost effective than spending less and trying to make a plane better.

Yoke vs stick? I've had both. They do the same thing, which is to allow me to control the airplane. No advantage or disadvantage either way. A bigger factor might be heel brakes vs toe brakes. Or how some small tandem taildraggers are easier to get in and out of than others. Try some on and find out what fits.

 

[Tom-D]

You might also take a look at a Luscombe if a 2-seater is all you need.

Luscombe's are another example of this type of aircraft that are becoming collectors items. top of the market is about $55k for a pristine polished example.

 

[RoscoeT]

Exactly what I said. Thirty years ago the kid at the pumps would always swing your prop for you but nowadays you'll not find anyone unless you're at a Luscombe fly-in or something.

I know, but you said it's a PITA unless you can find something to prop you. I disagree. It's easy and safe if you have some common sense and a routine that you never deviate from. And you'd have to be a 100 yr old emaciated one armed midget woman to be physically unable to prop a small Continental with impulse mags.

 

[JB1842]

Luscombe's are another example of this type of aircraft that are becoming collectors items. top of the market is about $55k for a pristine polished example.

My former CFI bought one a few years back that was a previous Oshkosh award winner. Got it less than $25k. Maybe things have changed that much in a few years, or he got a desperate seller. Does a polished plane really up the price?

 

[Henning]

Hello Everyone!

I'm new to this site, and am planning on starting pilot training in the summer.
My question is this - I would like to learn in a tail-dragger. Is this allowed? Also, if so, then I am thinking about purchasing a tail-dragger to receive my instruction in. Any opinions on a suitable and relatively inexpensive aircraft? I've been looking at Cessna 140's and 170's.

Thanks
Brett

No worries, either the 140 or 170 would make fine choices, it all depends on what your long term requirements and desires are, either of them are fine to use for primary training.

 

[Henning]

I would not have a primary airplane I had to hand prop mostly because no plane I have to hand prop has the performance and load capacity that I require. There are plenty of ways to make hand propping safe, but none of them make it any less of a PITA.

The 1340 Stearman had no electrical system, hand propping that was a huge PITA.

 

[Silvaire]

I know, but you said it's a PITA unless you can find something to prop you...

You're right, "PITA" is too strong of a term, it's not that big of a deal.

However, some people and the official FAA (and EAA for that matter) stance on it do go overboard, insisting the tail must be tied and there must be a second person on the brakes.

But, as Stewartb said, you're not choosing one of these airplanes new off the showroom floor so first and foremost is going to be the price and condition. I wouldn't pass on a really good deal based solely on whether or not it had a starter.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

If you've flown small aircraft a lot....that is champs, Luscombes, Cubs, etc, a lot, like over 3000 hours , you know for sure that hand propping them can be a real pain in the azz for sure. Many, many well qualified pilots have come to grief hand propping aircraft that have gotten away from them, run into other aircraft, gone thru side of a hangar, taken off and crashed, etc. .( Usually trying to clear the carb by putting it on full throttle after flooding it, forgetting this and losing the airplane.) Years ago anyone would prop you that was around. Today no one will as they are terrified. IF , repeat , IF said airplane is in perfect condition, carb set right, ( many are not) plugs are clean and in good shape, mags are set correctly and have impulse then you could be fine for a while. If you think hand propping is easy and fun then you are a neophyte. I've also tried to prop the Stearman I had when the battery died. A real honest pain in the Azz! I've no idea what Stearman henning refers to, mine was a 75 ex navy with a 670 cont. Engine.To add to this weighty problem is the quality of mechanics who attempt to work on these small engines and claim great expertise. Many are lousy. My favorite small aircraft was the Luscombe F model I owned, very well restored, sold it for fourty grand, IFR capable. My favorite larger aircraft commander 1000. Wonderful.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Now if you hand crank your car and like it then you may be a candidate for hand propping. Personally , I out grew it quickly.

 

[RoscoeT]

If you think hand propping is easy and fun then you are a neophyte.

You should go on the Cub forum and tell those guys that if they think propping is easy that they are neophytes.