Training, does the instructor needs to be experienced in type?

Discussion in 'Aerobatics' started by motoadve, Oct 28, 2018.

  1. motoadve

    motoadve Pre-takeoff checklist

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    New owner of a Nanchang, doing my first 10 hrs with the instructor who is experinced in type, but not in aerobatics.

    Friend of mine used to be in the Patriots team for 11 years, also experienced in Extras and powerful aerobatics airplane, great bush pilot too.

    He offered to teach me in the Nanchang, but doesnt have experience in this model.

    Does the instructor has to be experienced in type before teaching aerobatics in it?
     
  2. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Ask your insurance agent (who will ask the underwriter).
     
  3. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I wouldn’t think it would be a ‘requirement’, but I wouldn’t recommend it. The instructor needs to know how the airplane behaves while doing basic acro before they try to teach it to someone else. Not all airplanes are alike in that regard.
     
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  4. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft. If you meet the regulations and meet your insurance requirements the instructor Is not required time in make/model.
     
  5. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    THIS 100%.

    I would not want to be learning aerobatics in an airplane using a CFI with no experience in type.

    For example, taking an experienced Pitts or Citabria instructor and having them give aerobatic instruction in a T6 is a good way to get killed.
     
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  6. write-stuff

    write-stuff En-Route

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    Plus, the Nanchang CJ-6 has a lot of very different systems and nuances. It's not a difficult airplane to learn, but it is different enough that you need an experienced instructor.
     
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  7. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    I agree. Next question is, how much experience in type is enough?

    It should also be noted that there is no set criteria for what an “aerobatic instructor” is. Choose wisely.
     
  8. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    How ever long it takes said instructor to perform basic aerobatic maneuvers proficiently.
     
  9. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    How does one determine that the instructor is able to execute the maneuvers safely and proficiently? Take their word for it?

    When it comes to aerobatics and other specialized instruction I suspect many of the people seeking that instruction will have a hard time qualifying the person they desire to get instruction from. I’m pretty there is an enthusiast group for these airplanes so it might be worth seeking an opinion from them on who to receive specialized aerobatic instruction from.
     
  10. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    The same could be said for any student who flies with a CFI for basic instruction. Nobody looks at their CFI’s logbook or resume prior to flying with them...atleast I don’t know of anyone who does. You just assume that he or she is competent of conducting safe flight instruction.
     
  11. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    Absolutely. It is relatively hard to screw up the typical training people seek however, so I don’t feel it is as important to qualify the instructor.

    When you start getting into more advanced instruction the risk level goes up. It is far more important to qualify the person you’re flying with if you want to stay alive and be trained properly. Aerobatic training falls into this category in my opinion.
     
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  12. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Agree 100%. In that sense, I really don’t know how you would qualify an instructor. Word of mouth I assume. Getting into airplanes like these makes it hard to find a CFI that’s competent enough for the job, so I can understand the difficulty.
     
  13. whifferdill

    whifferdill Line Up and Wait

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    There are no easy answers, but I've flown them and there's nothing special about CJ-6 acro that a pilot with broad acro experience in various types would have an issue with as long as they have a basic understanding of the airplane and systems. And you are PIC remember. The CJ is suitable for positive G warbird style acro - loops, rolls, and Cubans. This is really basic simple stuff. The airplane is extremely straightforward handling with no surprises. Sometimes it's better to have a highly experienced aerobatic instructor with very broad experience (but possibly no time in type) than a minimally experienced acro pilot instructor who has time in type. It depends on the subject airplane as well as the pilot.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018
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  14. ebetancourt

    ebetancourt Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Whifferdill's post is spot on. Like so much else in aviation, this is airplane dependent. Once you are a proficient PIC in an airplane, you should not only be able to fly it reasonable well, you should have made a serious effort to learn as much about it as possible. The previous T-6 example is spot on. There is plenty of information about that airplane that should be a warning that you need special help with it. On the other hand, a Waco YMF (Classic) is a pleasant, easy to fly airplane. If you are comfortable in a Citabria, you can fly anything you flew (well) in the Citabria with it. The Waco ATO is in the same league as far as aerobatics (not landings). I've never had aerobatic instruction in either Waco, because adding a front seater would require different flying anyway. The biggest takeaways I would tell someone is the YMF is easy to get into a spiral instead of a spin, but recovery from either is super quick. The ATO is sloppy about spin recovery and I still haven't mastered 1 1/2 turns. (I don't have any interest in fully developed spins only what's required for Primary.) I can also say that the ATO is not happy in an upline for a hammer. A slight push to straighten the line and it gets super quiet. Oddly, the recovery from the beginning of an inverted hammer spin is really quick. The ATO's roll rate is much better.

    I am hoping to get ground coaching this Spring, but I have done everything in the Primary sequence in both airplanes, with no in airplane training. So if the CJ is a reasonably easy airplane to recover from spins, accelerated stalls, etc. I would have no problem learning aerobatics with a non(CJ)-familiar CFI.
     
  15. ebetancourt

    ebetancourt Pre-takeoff checklist

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    On a different topic, anyone interested in learning aerobatics would benefit from buying and reading Alan Cassidy's book, Better Aerobatics. I got mine on Amazon, and refer to it whenever I'm trying to improve something.

    Ernie