Traffic pattern question

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Rneuwirth

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Rneuwirth
Runway is 10-28, wind is from the west, my flight path is from the east, slightly north of this private (non-towered) airstrip.

Is it more correct to fly past the strip, turn around and enter the pattern directly on the downwind leg, cross over the strip midfield and enter the downwind leg, or fly parallel to (or directly over) the strip "upwind" and complete the pattern?

I couldn't find this question answered directly either in the AIM or the Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge. I need the best answer, since I'll be landing at the DPE's private field to begin my checkride.

Thanks
 
No. There's a hill that blocks the straight in approach.

But, if it were possible, would that be the most correct method?
 
The pattern entry stuff in the AIM are "recommended" methods, not hard fast rules. I'd say set yourself up in whatever way is easiest and safest for you, that doesn't negatively interfere with existing traffic.

Just don't forget to still use proper radio phraseology.

My $0.02
 
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I go for the straight in first, but absent that I tend to favor the overhead midfield if it doesn't require a lot of superfluous maneuvering. If that requires a bunch of crazy turns, though, I'd probably just go straight into the upwind and join the pattern from there.

As Andrew said, though, as long as you're announcing what you're doing and don't cause a hazard to anyone else, you'll probably be fine.
 
Ditto the ask your instructor, he / she has probably flown in there before and can offer the most sage advice. That said depending on the terrain and your inbound course it sounds like you should consider either a midfield crosswind to downwind entry (I like this because it usually allows a good look at the windsock) or you could come in high and teardrop into a 45 degree entry.

Ask your instructor because he is the one who signs you off and he should be ready to offer advice
 
I've was taught the less time you spend around the pattern....... But not in the pattern.... The safer everyone is.

If you can set up for the straight in, call the straight in. If there is traffic in the pattern, maybe go north, cross perpendicular south to the runway for a midfield entry to downwind. Traffic or obstacles to the north, fly south, then turn to enter a 45 for the downwind.

My last options would be to fly west (around or over the pattern), then 180 for a direct entry to downwind. Or fly an overhead break. These are two scenarios where another plane could climb into you.

But it all depends on traffic...... Where it is (use your radio), and where it normally is (uncontrolled airport, no radios). Find the gap on your mental traffic map, and take the safest route (which might be a steep straight in.........or overhead break).

My 0.02

Ask your CFI
 
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Rneuwirth said:
<snip>
fly past the strip, turn around and enter the pattern directly on the downwind leg,
Click to expand...

Not my favorite. seems like a lot of extra manuevering to enter the pattern.

Rneuwirth said:
cross over the strip midfield and enter the downwind leg
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I like this entry, See the AOPA document on non-towered airports. Also it is referenced by the FAA AC on non-towered airports

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...EQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNGTx09aAT_IdWpcImmYrxKDsv0IBQ AOPA Document
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...AQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNF3hV6GHrcHeBOd_Enb7ux4eZXFpw FAA Document
Rneuwirth said:
, or fly parallel to (or directly over) the strip "upwind" and complete the pattern?
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Not a big fan of this one either. I like to keep the runway in site as much as possible. Parallel to is similar to the to the mid field entry if you want or need a longer downwind you can do a crosswind entry.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Brian:

Thanks so much. The AOPA article is quite clear and directly answers my question.

Robert
 
How high is the hill and how far from the runway?
 
The are all equally correct from a regulatory standpoint. Do whatever fits best with the traffic in the pattern and your personal level of comfort.
 
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I tend to only do the straight-in-to-final approach when shooting an instrument approach. I don't know if it really is any safer or not as far as avoiding mid-airs to enter on the 45 but that is what I teach my students to try for as a rule of thumb. My reasoning behind it is that for one, you get as chance to view the whole runway/airport from directly above, number two is that at pattern altitude everyone else is easily spotted if they are too, three is that you do not conflict as much with other traffic in the pattern (you fall into line and are probably flying close to the same speed depending). Again though it all depends on the airport/situation/traffic sometimes it just makes more sense to modify your procedure.

<---<^>--->
 
p1l0t said:
I tend to only do the straight-in-to-final approach when shooting an instrument approach. I don't know if it really is any safer or not as far as avoiding mid-airs to enter on the 45 but that is what I teach my students to try for as a rule of thumb. My reasoning behind it is that for one, you get as chance to view the whole runway/airport from directly above, number two is that at pattern altitude everyone else is easily spotted if they are too, three is that you do not conflict as much with other traffic in the pattern (you fall into line and are probably flying close to the same speed depending). Again though it all depends on the airport/situation/traffic sometimes it just makes more sense to modify your procedure.

<---<^>--->
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Oh yeah and its a familiar pattern so helps with consistency. For whatever that's worth.

<---<^>--->
 
I'd come screaming overhead at Vne for the overhead break, but then again, I'm a lunatic RV driver, so it's not only accepted, it's obviously expected, so before I even state my intentions the mere mention I am headed towards the pattern let's folks know there is trouble afoot. ;)
 
dell30rb said:
Ditto the ask your instructor, he / she has probably flown in there before and can offer the most sage advice. That said depending on the terrain and your inbound course it sounds like you should consider either a midfield crosswind to downwind entry (I like this because it usually allows a good look at the windsock) or you could come in high and teardrop into a 45 degree entry.

Ask your instructor because he is the one who signs you off and he should be ready to offer advice
Click to expand...

I like this answer best.

TripleZ said:
I've was taught the less time you spend around the pattern....... But not in the pattern.... The safer everyone is.

If you can set up for the straight in, call the straight in. If there is traffic in the pattern, maybe go north, cross perpendicular south to the runway for a midfield entry to downwind. Traffic or obstacles to the north, fly south, then turn to enter a 45 for the downwind.

My last options would be to fly west (around or over the pattern), then 180 for a direct entry to downwind. Or fly an overhead break. These are two scenarios where another plane could climb into you.

But it all depends on traffic...... Where it is (use your radio), and where it normally is (uncontrolled airport, no radios). Find the gap on your mental traffic map, and take the safest route (which might be a steep straight in.........or overhead break).

My 0.02

Ask your CFI
Click to expand...

Joking right...?
 
Jaybird180 said:
I like this answer best.



Joking right...?
Click to expand...

Yes, I was waiting for an RV driver to show up. :rofl:

BellyUpFish said:
I'd come screaming overhead at Vne for the overhead break, but then again, I'm a lunatic RV driver, so it's not only accepted, it's obviously expected, so before I even state my intentions the mere mention I am headed towards the pattern let's folks know there is trouble afoot. ;)
Click to expand...
 
Lots of people come straight in, but it is not a good idea at an uncontrolled airport. That said, I fly out of uncontrolled airport and there doesn't seem to be a common way. You just have to be a swivel neck and watch for them while closely monitoring radio traffic.

Yesterday I was doing some pattern work at our little single runway uncontrolled airport. The wind is about 5 knots qartering from the NorthEast. I am doing stop and go's on 35. As I'm climbing out and only a few hundred feet off the runway I see a plane probably a couple of miles out coming straight at me. I was high enough to turn crosswind, so I did it immediately. About halfway through the turn to crosswind, he calls a straight in for 17.

By the time I was on downwind he was touching the runway. He went to the end, turned around, never called his take off and was off the end of 35 before I could touch down.

IMHO, this is a typical type problem at an uncontrolled airport. Even though you are SUPPOSED to land upwind and you are SUPPOSED to enter the pattern on the downwind at pattern altitude and you're SUPPOSED to call your turns especially with traffic in the pattern or the vicinity, from where I sit, not too many people comply.

If everyone would enter the pattern at a 45 on the downwind leg for the upwind runway at pattern altitude, uncontrolled airports would be safer.

My $0.02,
Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
If everyone would enter the pattern at a 45 on the downwind leg for the upwind runway at pattern altitude, uncontrolled airports would be safer.

My $0.02,
Doc
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I disagree. Depending on where you are coming from - that may require a LOT of maneuvering meaning more airplanes spending more time in the air doing lots of turns in the vicinity of the airport. No thanks.

The only time I enter on the 45 is when my course easily allows me to do that. If I'm approaching the airport from the other side I'll join on the crosswind. Sometimes I'll join on base. Sometimes I'll just fly straight in.

If I'm in a RV - I do an overheard break - because that's the only way they can land.
 
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MBDiagMan said:
Lots of people come straight in, but it is not a good idea at an uncontrolled airport.
Click to expand...

You're example, which I didn't include all of, really only describes poor piloting, not an inherent hazard to straight-in approaches.

I do straight-in approaches fairly often, but I call at 10 miles, 5 miles, 3 miles, and final. If doing a straight-in would conflict with other traffic in the pattern, then I won't do the straight-in.

I think the straight-in approach is safer than all of the extra maneuvering in the airport environment that a typical 45-degree downwind entry can require in some cases. But that is predicated on everyone making callouts as required. IME the NORDO guys are doing who-knows-what so I think we all just have to dodge them.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Lots of people come straight in, but it is not a good idea at an uncontrolled airport. That said, I fly out of uncontrolled airport and there doesn't seem to be a common way. You just have to be a swivel neck and watch for them while closely monitoring radio traffic.

Yesterday I was doing some pattern work at our little single runway uncontrolled airport. The wind is about 5 knots qartering from the NorthEast. I am doing stop and go's on 35. As I'm climbing out and only a few hundred feet off the runway I see a plane probably a couple of miles out coming straight at me. I was high enough to turn crosswind, so I did it immediately. About halfway through the turn to crosswind, he calls a straight in for 17.

By the time I was on downwind he was touching the runway. He went to the end, turned around, never called his take off and was off the end of 35 before I could touch down.

IMHO, this is a typical type problem at an uncontrolled airport. Even though you are SUPPOSED to land upwind and you are SUPPOSED to enter the pattern on the downwind at pattern altitude and you're SUPPOSED to call your turns especially with traffic in the pattern or the vicinity, from where I sit, not too many people comply.

If everyone would enter the pattern at a 45 on the downwind leg for the upwind runway at pattern altitude, uncontrolled airports would be safer.

My $0.02,
Doc
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I hate the 45 because it puts my back to all the traffic. The only time I fly a 45 is if my vector to the airport puts me on the 45. If there are three planes in the pattern, and I have them all in sight and I am on the upwind side, why in the name of Balder's Blue Balls would I want to lose sight of them by putting them behind me? If I'm on the upwind side, I can easily adjust my crosswind to fit in. I'm sorry, the FAA is retarded with their 45 degree recommendation.
 
Rneuwirth said:
Runway is 10-28, wind is from the west, my flight path is from the east, slightly north of this private (non-towered) airstrip.

Is it more correct to fly past the strip, turn around and enter the pattern directly on the downwind leg, cross over the strip midfield and enter the downwind leg, or fly parallel to (or directly over) the strip "upwind" and complete the pattern?

I couldn't find this question answered directly either in the AIM or the Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge. I need the best answer, since I'll be landing at the DPE's private field to begin my checkride.

Thanks
Click to expand...

If it's a private strip and they know I'm coming I'll do one low pass gear up flaps 15 to inspect the runway and then come around for landing. If they don't know I'm coming and I can't communicate with them I'll circle once or twice at pattern altitude to see if anyone takes notice, then I'll do the low pass. If on down wind from that nobody is shooting at me, I land. I had to do that a couple of times to put in a report when flying pipeline patrol.
 
BellyUpFish said:
I'd come screaming overhead at Vne for the overhead break, but then again, I'm a lunatic RV driver, so it's not only accepted, it's obviously expected, so before I even state my intentions the mere mention I am headed towards the pattern let's folks know there is trouble afoot. ;)
Click to expand...

I thought we were supposed to clear the hill by 25' at VNE +9%, roll inverted and pitch to the downline, slam the throttle closed, roll upright and slip with flaps all the way to touchdown.

Clearly, I need a refresher.
 
roncachamp said:
What's inherently safer about that?
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Might make the airport safer but prolly won't do much for the pilots. At best it concentrates the potential for conflicts to somewhere on the downwind leg and along the 45° entry path.
 
kyleb said:
I thought we were supposed to clear the hill by 25' at VNE +9%, roll inverted and pitch to the downline, slam the throttle closed, roll upright and slip with flaps all the way to touchdown.

Clearly, I need a refresher.
Click to expand...

Oh, was he talking about a congested pattern? I thought he was just talking about a rather empty pattern on a Tuesday afternoon..

If indeed, he was speaking to a congested pattern on a mid-fall Saturday afternoon, then yes, the split S with full flap slip to final you have described is the preferred method to get on the ground briskly, without any undue delay to those in the pattern.

I generally call in "straight in, overhead split, runway 29" and people know what to look for. :rofl:
 
COFlyBoy said:
You're example, which I didn't include all of, really only describes poor piloting, not an inherent hazard to straight-in approaches.

I do straight-in approaches fairly often, but I call at 10 miles, 5 miles, 3 miles, and final. If doing a straight-in would conflict with other traffic in the pattern, then I won't do the straight-in.

I think the straight-in approach is safer than all of the extra maneuvering in the airport environment that a typical 45-degree downwind entry can require in some cases. But that is predicated on everyone making callouts as required. IME the NORDO guys are doing who-knows-what so I think we all just have to dodge them.
Click to expand...


Flyboy, you are inadvertently pointing out the problem. Yes, when someone comes straight in, enters the crosswind or whatever AS LONG AS THEY'RE MAKING RADIO CALLS, it's not really a problem. What I see out here in the boonies are things like I describe where someone doesn't have a radio, too lazy to use it, think it's unnecessary, etc. Maybe it's not even one of those as the problem instead they just assume that there will be no one in the sky around that airport except themselves.

You and the other posters have made excellent points for me to consider and learn from, but I suppose it's impossible to consider all scenarios. Also I expect that different airports have a different group of pilots going in and out of them.

I think the problem at my home airport is due to several issues:

It is a VERY lightly used airport so people just think there's no one around and they can do whatever they want without worry.

Because it's lightly used, students seem to come in and out, probably on training cross countries and they choose it because it has low traffic and a big runway for a boon dock airport.

The last reason is just something I can't understand. I did much of my early training at a busier airport that was also uncontrolled, but with three BIG runways. There was commonly lots of traffic, but everyone expected it so if they weren't entering the pattern in a textbook fashion they were calling their intentions quite dutifully.

In this thread, all these different ideas about how to deal with an uncontrolled airport, including my own possibly being misguided, is the problem. The traffic pattern and specific TPA is SUPPOSED to be done so that we know where to look for planes. With all the different ideas and procedures, it throws the textbook approach out the window.

I would recommend reading the portion of "The Killing Zone" that talks about mid airs at uncontrolled airports.

I hope no one thinks I'm lecturing here. I'm just a student who flies out of an uncontrolled airport and just a few days ago had an attention getting episode due to strange procedures on the part of the visiting pilot. I am learning a LOT from you guys about this issue and I appreciate it.

Doc
 
EdFred said:
I hate the 45 because it puts my back to all the traffic. The only time I fly a 45 is if my vector to the airport puts me on the 45. If there are three planes in the pattern, and I have them all in sight and I am on the upwind side, why in the name of Balder's Blue Balls would I want to lose sight of them by putting them behind me? If I'm on the upwind side, I can easily adjust my crosswind to fit in. I'm sorry, the FAA is retarded with their 45 degree recommendation.
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I am NOT trying to be confrontational here. I am a STUDENT pilot and my goal is simply to LEARN.

That said, please expound on what you said. I don't understand how coming into the downwind leg on a 45 puts all the traffic BEHIND you. I thought that was the reason for the textbook 45 so that you could see the traffic in the pattern as you are entering the pattern PLUS if everyone did it that way, then everyone else would know where to look for traffic entering the pattern.

From this thread I get the idea that the textbook pattern information must be Eutopia.

Again, I am just trying to learn, and I appreciate everyones patience and explanations. Knowing how others think, allows me to broaden my understanding of what can happen and what to look for in the pattern at an uncotrolled airport.

Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
I am NOT trying to be confrontational here. I am a STUDENT pilot and my goal is simply to LEARN.

That said, please expound on what you said. I don't understand how coming into the downwind leg on a 45 puts all the traffic BEHIND you. I thought that was the reason for the textbook 45 so that you could see the traffic in the pattern as you are entering the pattern PLUS if everyone did it that way, then everyone else would know where to look for traffic entering the pattern.

From this thread I get the idea that the textbook pattern information must be Eutopia.

Again, I am just trying to learn, and I appreciate everyones patience and explanations. Knowing how others think, allows me to broaden my understanding of what can happen and what to look for in the pattern at an uncotrolled airport.

Doc
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Doc,

Here's is some good info that is advisory (helpful, suggested, NOT mandatory BUT is good practice):

AC 90-66A Recommended Standards Traffic Patterns for Aeronautical Operations at Airports without Operating Control Towers

[URL="http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/WebSearchDefault?SearchView&Query=Traffic&SearchOrder=1&SearchMax=0&SearchWV=TRUE&SearchFuzzy=TRUE&Start=1&Count=100#"]AC 90-42F Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports without Operating Control Towers[/URL]
 
Since the implementation of the 45 degree entry, mid-airs have declined in pattern but increased near the 45 point. No matter what you will always want to 'have your head out of the cockpit.' [Look outside the window] It is much easier to spot and get spotted when everyone is at the same altitude, one of the reasons for the TPA. I am also a believer in running the race track especially during high-traffic because everyone can kind of fall into line making seperation easier. But the arguments about maneuvering around extra and that it only adds to the time you are 'in the way' are completely valid points. If you have a radio, always communicate who you are, where you are, and what are your intentions. And always be on the look out for the unexpected, like when your turning base to final and there is that pilot on a straight-in final on the wrong frequency when there a 4 planes in the pattern..

<---<^>--->
 
MBDiagMan said:
...
That said, please expound on what you said. I don't understand how coming into the downwind leg on a 45 puts all the traffic BEHIND you...

Doc
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If you're coming from a direction on the opposite side of the airfield as the pattern, once you cross over the field you'll have to reverse your course to pick up the 45. At some point prior to reversing your course, the runway and any pattern traffic will be behind you as you maneuver to get on the 45 headed back to the airfield.

If you're approaching the airfield from the same side as the pattern, you are correct in thinking that everything is in front of you as you enter via a 45. That's why Ed said he only enters via a 45 if he happens to be approaching the airfield conveniently aligned for the 45.
 
Witmo said:
If you're coming from a direction on the opposite side of the airfield as the pattern, once you cross over the field you'll have to reverse your course to pick up the 45. At some point prior to reversing your course, the runway and any pattern traffic will be behind you as you maneuver to get on the 45 headed back to the airfield.

If you're approaching the airfield from the same side as the pattern, you are correct in thinking that everything is in front of you as you enter via a 45. That's why Ed said he only enters via a 45 if he happens to be approaching the airfield conveniently aligned for the 45.
Click to expand...


That's not the only option. If you're on the opposite side, why not enter an upwind leg, then enter crosswind?

You have even more time to observe the pattern.
 
dmccormack said:
That's not the only option. If you're on the opposite side, why not enter an upwind leg, then enter crosswind?

You have even more time to observe the pattern.
Click to expand...

I agree and that's often how I enter the pattern. I was just trying to clarify EdFred's post.
 
ajstoner21 said:
The pattern entry stuff in the AIM are "recommended" methods, not hard fast rules. I'd say set yourself up in whatever way is easiest and safest for you, that doesn't negatively interfere with existing traffic.

Just don't forget to still use RECOMMENDED radio phraseology.

My $0.02
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My emphasis.

Bob Gardner
 
Jaybird180 said:
Doc- When is your checkride?
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Still several weeks away. If the weather holds I'll knock out my long cross country and night cross country Friday. After that I only need 1.9 hours under the hood and then checkride tune up flying. It's getting close.

If it weren't so difficult to schedule time with my instructor I would say it's a couple of weeks off. In reality, it will take several weeks just to schedule enough time to get my hood work and tune up stuff done, possibly several weeks. Unfortunately I have no other instructors available in the area. This has slowed me down all Spring and Summer. It's almost amazing that I'm this far along. The good news is that once you get him strapped in the plane, he's a GREAT instructor, at least from my perspective.

Doc
 
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Everyone,

Thanks for all the responses to my question. You have offered some very good information and it is very timely for me as my long cross country is looming and I will land at three airports before returning to my home field. I've never landed at any of them.

I will study the linked material before then as well.

Thanks again.

Doc
 
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