"Traffic 12:00 5 miles type and altitude unknown "

eMKay

eMKay

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Feb 2, 2011
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Buffalo, NY
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eMKay
Happened to me today, and is the reason I ALWAYS get flight following, even if I don't have to, I do. Because I had someone looking out for me, and the guy headed straight for me didn't.

I never saw him BTW.
 
eMKay said:
Happened to me today, and is the reason I ALWAYS get flight following, even if I don't have to, I do. Because I had someone looking out for me, and the guy headed straight for me didn't.

I never saw him BTW.
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Wo. Thanks for this. I did my first x/c a few days ago and we had flight following-- they warned us of a couple planes near us too that I never saw. Scary.

So in that instance, did you bank and get out of there? What did you do?
 
No altitude reporting I usually look from the ground up a few times and then scan small circles ahead until I spot them or 'no factor'.
 
keep in mind when they say type and altitude unknown it means it could also be birds.
 
eMKay said:
Happened to me today, and is the reason I ALWAYS get flight following, even if I don't have to, I do. Because I had someone looking out for me, and the guy headed straight for me didn't.

I never saw him BTW.
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Same here. When I first started flying, I used to avoid talking to anyone other than ground and tower:lol: Now, I hardly ever leave the pattern without FF, especially here in the NYC area! FF and the G1000 TIS, both have greatly improved my SA.
 
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Tracey said:
Wo. Thanks for this. I did my first x/c a few days ago and we had flight following-- they warned us of a couple planes near us too that I never saw. Scary.

So in that instance, did you bank and get out of there? What did you do?
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No, I was told in that situation, if you can't see him, do nothing, the controller will tell you when and in what direction to turn. This has happened a few times already in my 88 hours.
 
eMKay said:
No, I was told in that situation, if you can't see him, do nothing, the controller will tell you when and in what direction to turn. This has happened a few times already in my 88 hours.
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Can't depend on that, as positive separation is assured only in Class B for VFR traffic.
 
Henning said:
No altitude reporting I usually look from the ground up a few times and then scan small circles ahead until I spot them or 'no factor'.
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I was trying to concentrate on looking down, he probably just popped up from one of the many fields down there, but at 12:00 there is not much I could see. He then told me 11:00 1 mile, then no factor. Still didn't see him
 
There are many alternatives, but I guess what I was saying is not to wait for instructions from a controller for clearing a traffic conflict when on VFR flight following. While FF is a great resource, it can't be depended on to point out all traffic nor to deconflict you from it.
 
I wouldn't wait for instructions if I could see the traffic, but I couldn't. And since he was 12:00, you did read the original post right?
 
Let's not panic here. This is why you scan the sky, and stay at your assigned altitude. The controller did not give direction of flight and you are 5 miles away in a Cessna. This is not a cause for concern. The controler is just doing their job by telling you what is on their screen.

Relax and keep your scan going, do not on fixate on one area looking for one specific traffic call out. The controller will update you if the situation warrants.


;)
 
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Geico266 said:
Let's not panic here. This is why you scan the sky. The controller did not give direction of flight and you are 5 miles away in a Cessna. This is not a cause for concern. The controler is just doing their job by telling you what is on their screen.

Relax and keep your scan going, do not on fixate on one area looking for one specific traffic call out. The controller will update you if the situation warrants. ;)
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Yes he did give me the direction of flight, nobody panicked, it was the entire point of my thread was to point out that he did his job, but he can only do his job if given the opportunity. Where are you getting panic? I swear nobody here actually reads posts.
 
eMKay said:
Happened to me today, and is the reason I ALWAYS get flight following, even if I don't have to, I do. Because I had someone looking out for me, and the guy headed straight for me didn't.

I never saw him BTW.
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You make the situation sound like this is an emergency ot something. It is a controller calling out traffic.
 
eMKay said:
Which is even scarier:eek:
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More unreasoanable fear.


I'm not picking on you, but you make this sound like it was. The controller is obilgated to call out traffic. How many time have you been flying and never saw the traffic? Of course you don't know. So why worry about it when they call it out? Just say "XXXX Looking" and continue.
 
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eMKay said:
I wouldn't wait for instructions if I could see the traffic, but I couldn't. And since he was 12:00, you did read the original post right?
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12:00 doesn't have to mean it's coming at you. It could be going left to right or right to left across your flight path.
 
EppyGA said:
12:00 doesn't have to mean it's coming at you. It could be going left to right or right to left across your flight path.
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Good point. Believe it or not, that would not have occured to me. It will now though. Thanks.
 
eMKay said:
Happened to me today, and is the reason I ALWAYS get flight following, even if I don't have to, I do. Because I had someone looking out for me, and the guy headed straight for me didn't.

I never saw him BTW.
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I don't want to argue with you. There are times when reading the type written word on forums comes across in a different way. Sorry.

Flight following cannot be relied on to keep you out of harms way. They can help, but it is up to you to "see and avoid".

I have been flying over the most desolate parts of the SW only to have a Mooney fly right over the top of my at the wrong alt for the direction he was going. After a few of those 5 miles is not even traffic. ;)

Sorry if I was interrupting your post the wrong way.
 
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Heard that twice today "Looking for Traffic -- 00W"
Lots of /T around here or "Skin Paint Only" which is usually the crop dusters.
"See and Avoid"
No issue.
 
eMKay said:
No, I was told in that situation, if you can't see him, do nothing, the controller will tell you when and in what direction to turn. This has happened a few times already in my 88 hours.
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They shouldn't. If you don't report spotting the traffic and the controller believes you are in unsafe proximity to it he should issue a safety alert and advise on a course of action. It is solely the pilot’s prerogative to determine what course of action, if any, will be taken. You're unlikely to get such an advisory when the altitude of the other aircraft is not known.
 
EppyGA said:
12:00 doesn't have to mean it's coming at you. It could be going left to right or right to left across your flight path.
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A proper traffic advisory includes the direction of flight or relative movement of the other traffic.
 
Most likely the traffic was an agricultural plane spraying on a field. This type of aircraft rarely fly above 1000ft and they usually have no mode C capability since it is not required. Some don't even have a transponder. It may have been detected by the primary radar.

José
 
Piloto said:
Most likely the traffic was an agricultural plane spraying on a field. This type of aircraft rarely fly above 1000ft and they usually have no mode C capability since it is not required. Some don't even have a transponder. It may have been detected by the primary radar.

José
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Spray plane in Buffalo New York at this time of year?

You rightly point out that you don't know if the controller had a transponder (from the context likely not) or a primary radar target.

Keep in mind that in the situation where the traffic is at 12:00, you can assume it will get bigger before it hits you. That doesn't mean you necessarily will see it (Cirrus vs Pawnee with glider) but it does imply that a good scan should be rewarded.

I never say "looking" always "negative contact".
 
jnmeade said:
Spray plane in Buffalo New York at this time of year?

You rightly point out that you don't know if the controller had a transponder (from the context likely not) or a primary radar target.

Keep in mind that in the situation where the traffic is at 12:00, you can assume it will get bigger before it hits you. That doesn't mean you necessarily will see it (Cirrus vs Pawnee with glider) but it does imply that a good scan should be rewarded.

I never say "looking" always "negative contact".
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Many farmers spray insecticide before planting to avoid killing the harvest.

José
 
jnmeade said:
I never say "looking" always "negative contact".
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Was going to bring that up earlier that the correct response would either be "traffic in sight" or "negative contact" although I here people use the "looking" phrase all the time.

If you are VFR and you respond "negative contact" the controller should automatically assume you're "looking" since that is your job. :D
 
Geico266 said:
Let's not panic here. This is why you scan the sky, and stay at your assigned altitude. The controller did not give direction of flight and you are 5 miles away in a Cessna. This is not a cause for concern. The controler is just doing their job by telling you what is on their screen.

Relax and keep your scan going, do not on fixate on one area looking for one specific traffic call out. The controller will update you if the situation warrants.


;)
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+1, I probably get 20 traffic advisories like that per week, almost always birds, and I almost never find what they reported.
 
EppyGA said:
Was going to bring that up earlier that the correct response would either be "traffic in sight" or "negative contact" although I here people use the "looking" phrase all the time.

If you are VFR and you respond "negative contact" the controller should automatically assume you're "looking" since that is your job. :D
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"No Joy" is the only other phrase I use if I cannot see the traffic. The less syllables the better. ;)
 
Geico266 said:
"No Joy" is the only other phrase I use if I cannot see the traffic. The less syllables the better. ;)
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No joy means what to a Chinese or German flight school student? Hopefully they've been taught "negative contact". This is like "repeat". What does it mean? If you are in the Army, it means "shoot the last mission against" and is used for artillery. You woudn't want to say "repeat' if you really meant "say again". But, somebody said words mean just what you want them to, nothing more, nothing less.
 
Piloto said:
Many farmers spray insecticide before planting to avoid killing the harvest.

José
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In Buffalo, NY in February? I assume this is a joke? Few farmers spray insecticide from airplanes this far north. Mostly we spray fungicide. Sometimes herbicide. Very rarely we seed and fertilize, but that is mostly done with rice or other southern crops. Down south they may spray insecticide, I don't know. But I assure you there are no insects out in Buffalo at this time of year.
 
EppyGA said:
12:00 doesn't have to mean it's coming at you. It could be going left to right or right to left across your flight path.
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ATC usually gives a direction unless the traffic isn't moving in a straight line (they should say "maneuvering" in that case). If they say "Opposite direction" or "same direction" the traffic is likely to remain at that 12 o'clock for a while. If you're not given a direction (could be the traffic just popped up on the scope) you can always ask for that.

My reaction to a 12 o'clock and 5 miles, no altitude call is to just continue to scan normally with a slight emphasis on a 10° cone ahead. IME it's nearly impossible to see a small airplane more than 2-3 miles away and as long as your head isn't buried inside the cockpit you should be able to see one long before it's really a collision hazard. Focusing on one spot is a good way to miss spotting the traffic before it's real close if you happen to be focusing in the wrong area.

If it gets down to much less than 2 miles and you still don't see it, it may be time to ask for vectors around the traffic even if the altitude is "unknown".
 
eMKay said:
I was trying to concentrate on looking down, he probably just popped up from one of the many fields down there, but at 12:00 there is not much I could see. He then told me 11:00 1 mile, then no factor. Still didn't see him
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That is very likely where they are which is why I start there to get them spotted, but as time of closure is rapid if I'm doing 3 miles a minute and they are doing 2 then after about 20 seconds I need to shift my effort into the zone of greatest risk, the cone in front of me, as the best hedge on the 'Big Sky' theory hoping the plane will pass somewhere I'm not looking.
 
roncachamp said:
A proper traffic advisory includes the direction of flight or relative movement of the other traffic.
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Agreed.

The magic phrase "opposite direction" gets my attention much more than just a "12 O'clock at five miles."
 
denverpilot said:
Agreed.

The magic phrase "opposite direction" gets my attention much more than just a "12 O'clock at five miles."
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What get's my attention is when they come up short and to the point, one of my closest near hits went "04Y Immediate de (by this moment I was doing a bench press practice on my yoke)scent(zoom a King Air on descent just skims over the top of me.) Actually it was the tone of his voice when he called my numbers that perked me to it wasn't a normal call.
 
Agreed on the tone of voice and speed of speech thing too.

When the controller's voice jumps an octave (male or female) and they say your callsign "real-fast-gotta-tell-you-now" you'd best be ready to maneuver and quick.

The hard part is waiting for that hint as to which direction, and moving the controls the second you hear half the word, like Henning's example.

Had "Twelve O'Clock, Less than a mile, Altitude Indicates [higher than me] descending, recommend immediate descent..." once from ABQ Center.

I was in a decending right bank by the middle of the word "descending".

Interestingly the controller had remarked that someone VFR was passing me at a higher altitude on the Airway only about ten minutes before that.

The other pilot was in a 210 on the same Victor Airway and not participating in Flight Following. He'd decided to start his let-down and descended right in front of me.

I spotted him as he descended to my attitude out the left window and then he slowly pulled away out front as I went back to flying the Airway behind him. He disappeared after a little while.

He never knew I was back there.

Later when we both checked on with KPHX Approach, and he was still ahead at my altitude, judging by the controller's response to his requests to go to a different airport than I was headed for and where he was.
 
Sometimes you see the traffic and sometimes you don't.

Maybe 20-30 miles outside DSM one bright sunny day on VFR flight Following, traffic was called, 5 miles, 2 o'clock. No joy. 3 miles, 1 o'clock. No joy. 1 mile, 1 o'clock. No joy.

Suddenly, maybe a half mile off the nose, a nice red and white Apache at my altitude, moving right to left, fast. ARGH.
 
Henning said:
What get's my attention is when they come up short and to the point, one of my closest near hits went "04Y Immediate de (by this moment I was doing a bench press practice on my yoke)scent(zoom a King Air on descent just skims over the top of me.) Actually it was the tone of his voice when he called my numbers that perked me to it wasn't a normal call.
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Traffic Advisory, aka "normal call":

"Belchfire 04Y, traffic, twelve o’clock, five miles, opposite direction,
altitude unknown."


Aircraft Conflict Alert, aka "not so normal call":

"Traffic Alert, Belchfire 04Y, twelve o'clock, advise you descend immediately."
 
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