Tracking of ADs

Richard

Richard

Final Approach
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Ack...city life
Say an aircraft is down for unscheduled maintenance in the middle of nowhere, how would the pilot ascertain if all ADs have been complied with if the A&P does not have a AD database?
 
Log books should also have a notation on AD compliance notes when any recurring action is due.
 
Why would it matter at that point? Whoever's doing that unscheduled maintenance should be worrying only about fixing that issue and giving you a sticky documenting that work to put in the logbook when you get home. Even having an AD database won't help if the aircraft records aren't there, since that's where the AD compliance list will normally be. And if you do have the records, the compliance is listed there.
 
Ron Levy said:
Why would it matter at that point? Whoever's doing that unscheduled maintenance should be worrying only about fixing that issue and giving you a sticky documenting that work to put in the logbook when you get home. Even having an AD database won't help if the aircraft records aren't there, since that's where the AD compliance list will normally be. And if you do have the records, the compliance is listed there.
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Very good point, most owners don't carry the logs on cross countries, and I'm sure the com pilots will not have access to them either.

the only problem that would require seeing them would be if there was a issue over what P/N would be used if the AD was or was not complied with. but that should be easy to resolve by an inspection of the aircraft.
 
Skylane81E said:
Log books should also have a notation on AD compliance notes when any recurring action is due.
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True,,,,, but,,,,,

even if you have the log in hand, you must have an up to date list of ADs to compare it to.

Otherwise you don't know the FAA issued an emergency AD this morning.
 
Tom-D said:
even if you have the log in hand, you must have an up to date list of ADs to compare it to.

Otherwise you don't know the FAA issued an emergency AD this morning.
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That's not the concern of the mechanic performing a repair away from home. All s/he is certifying is that "the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, ... The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed." Anything beyond that is not that mechanic's problem -- only that of the owner/pilot who then flies the plane. The issue then of how to find out about an emergency AD issued this morning is no different on the road than at home, and the question of whether or not the mechanic who does the repair away from home has an AD database is irrelevant.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's not the concern of the mechanic performing a repair away from home. All s/he is certifying is that "the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, ... The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed." Anything beyond that is not that mechanic's problem -- only that of the owner/pilot who then flies the plane. The issue then of how to find out about an emergency AD issued this morning is no different on the road than at home, and the question of whether or not the mechanic who does the repair away from home has an AD database is irrelevant.
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How can any mechanic do the job satisfactorily if the job at hand involved parts that are effected by any AD.

Replacing cylinders on a 0-200 for example, If the 0-200 has old factory cylinders in any position, the timing must be retarded IAW the AD, and some times you simply can't tell if the cylinders are after market or not.. So some times the AD research is required to complete the job satisfactorily.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's not the concern of the mechanic performing a repair away from home. All s/he is certifying is that "the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, ... The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed." Anything beyond that is not that mechanic's problem -- only that of the owner/pilot who then flies the plane. The issue then of how to find out about an emergency AD issued this morning is no different on the road than at home, and the question of whether or not the mechanic who does the repair away from home has an AD database is irrelevant.
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It will be a very big problem for any mechanic that upon investigating the smoking hole the NTSB found that you timed the engine wrong because you did not do your home work.

You would get the registered letter requesting you send in your certificate.
 
Tom-D said:
How can any mechanic do the job satisfactorily if the job at hand involved parts that are effected by any AD.

Replacing cylinders on a 0-200 for example, If the 0-200 has old factory cylinders in any position, the timing must be retarded IAW the AD, and some times you simply can't tell if the cylinders are after market or not.. So some times the AD research is required to complete the job satisfactorily.
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That's a pretty obscure case, but I suppose that what you're saying is a mechanic has to know when it's necessary to check for AD's which directly affect the work s/he is performing. But what we're talking about here is recurring inspection AD's, and that's just not the concern of a mechanic doing a repair on an aircraft for a pilot who stops in and says, "I need this fixed to get home."
 
It's also interesting to note that it's the Owner operators job to get the log book entry, not mine as the A&P...
 
Ron Levy said:
That's a pretty obscure case, but I suppose that what you're saying is a mechanic has to know when it's necessary to check for AD's which directly affect the work s/he is performing. But what we're talking about here is recurring inspection AD's, and that's just not the concern of a mechanic doing a repair on an aircraft for a pilot who stops in and says, "I need this fixed to get home."
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The OP's post

Say an aircraft is down for unscheduled maintenance in the middle of nowhere, how would the pilot ascertain if all ADs have been complied with if the A&P does not have a AD database?
__________________

where does that say "re-occurring" ??

obscure? not really, there are a lot of old 150s out there still running factory cylinders. but if you were a A&P replacing the flap torque tube on your customers aztec, wouldn't you like to know if the AD had been complied with so you can order the correct parts with out disassembling the customers aircraft first..lots of ezamples of why the A&P would want to know AD compliance before returning the aircraft to service the 0-200 was the first to come to mind that's all.

for minor maintenance for walk in customers yeah, just fix it, give them a sticky to be placed in the log and send them on their way.

but remember, that sticky must comply with 43.9 and 43.13

How would you deal with life limited parts if you didn't have the maintenance records? Helo parts come to mind.. most are time lifed. or under an AD.
 
Semantics but the replacement of a life-limited part would be "scheduled"

It's a case-by-case thing and up to the A&P to get it right and the operator to provide the records needed.
 
Tom-D said:
True,,,,, but,,,,,

even if you have the log in hand, you must have an up to date list of ADs to compare it to.

Otherwise you don't know the FAA issued an emergency AD this morning.
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Not arguing on the ADs
 
Richard said:
My question is with respect to pilot's responsibility to determine airworthiness.
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In that regard, the pilot is always responsible for any AD's issued. For owner/pilots, we rely on our IA's preparation of the AD compliance list at annual time, and direct notification from the FAA about any new AD's between annuals. For renters, it's a matter of trust in the FBO/flight school/club from which we rent the plane.
 
Richard said:
My question is with respect to pilot's responsibility to determine airworthiness.
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Used in Part 91? or 135?

Ron pretty much covered 91, but the dispatch for 135 ops are held responsible for dispatching airworthy aircraft.
 
Ron Levy said:
In that regard, the pilot is always responsible for any AD's issued.
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Have I missed something? It seems for the scenario I presented the question remains unanswered as of yet. Assume Part 91, non-owner pilot out for a joyride in a borrowed (not rented) aircraft.
 
Richard said:
Have I missed something? It seems for the scenario I presented the question remains unanswered as of yet. Assume Part 91, non-owner pilot out for a joyride in a borrowed (not rented) aircraft.
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So, is your scenario that a non-owner pilot borrowed an aircraft and then landed somewhere and needed unscheduled maintenance?

When the non-owner pilot originally departed, did he/she determine the airworthiness of the aircraft?
 
Richard said:
Have I missed something? It seems for the scenario I presented the question remains unanswered as of yet. Assume Part 91, non-owner pilot out for a joyride in a borrowed (not rented) aircraft.
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91.7 places that responsibility on the pilot.
 
Everskyward said:
I think what he is getting at is that in 135 you don't need licensed dispatchers.
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That is determined during the certificate approval part 135 covers a wide range of operations. from single pilot 1 aircraft ops to multi aircraft multi pilot small airline types.

bureaucratic BS is when it requires the FAA 2 years to tell a 172 owner operator they are approved to act as an on demand air taxi.
 
Tom-D said:
That is determined during the certificate approval part 135 covers a wide range of operations. from single pilot 1 aircraft ops to multi aircraft multi pilot small airline types.

bureaucratic BS is when it requires the FAA 2 years to tell a 172 owner operator they are approved to act as an on demand air taxi.
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But you made a blanket statement that dispatch is responsible.
 
No but he who dispatches the plane is the responsible party, dispatcher or not.

In our case the owner/head pilot would be that person.
 
Richard said:
Have I missed something? It seems for the scenario I presented the question remains unanswered as of yet. Assume Part 91, non-owner pilot out for a joyride in a borrowed (not rented) aircraft.
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In that situation, the pilot is responsible for ensuring airworthiness before flight. If there's a need for unscheduled maintenance during the trip, the pilot is responsible for making sure the mechanic who does it makes and signs the appropriate log entry (or if the logbook isn't available, provides a sticky to put in the log later). In theory, it's also that pilot's responsibility if an emergency AD is issued requiring immediate compliance before any further flight, but that's an awfully unusual situation about which I wouldn't lose any sleep.
 
The subject here is not who is responsible. The subject is how to uphold that responsibility if there is no available AD database.
 
Richard said:
The subject here is not who is responsible. The subject is how to uphold that responsibility if there is no available AD database.
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Do you check the AD database everytime you borrow an aircraft?
 
Richard said:
The subject here is not who is responsible. The subject is how to uphold that responsibility if there is no available AD database.
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There is no need for you as a nonowner pilot to check for new AD's before each flight as long as you trust the aircraft owner, who will be notified by the FAA in a timely manner if a new AD is issued, to contact you appropriately quickly if one comes out. And if you don't trust the owner, you probably shouldn't be flying his/her plane in the first place.
 
Ron Levy said:
There is no need for you as a nonowner pilot to check for new AD's before each flight as long as you trust the aircraft owner, who will be notified by the FAA in a timely manner if a new AD is issued, to contact you appropriately quickly if one comes out. And if you don't trust the owner, you probably shouldn't be flying his/her plane in the first place.
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WRT "need". Are you implying the FARs are to be ignored in determining airworthiness vis a vis AD compliance? So the owner has been duly notified but he was not able to provide that information to the pilot in a timely manner.
 
Richard said:
WRT "need". Are you implying the FARs are to be ignored in determining airworthiness vis a vis AD compliance? So the owner has been duly notified but he was not able to provide that information to the pilot in a timely manner.
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I guess I'm not seeing how that happens. Are you saying the owner receives an AD requiring compliance in the near term but is completely unable to reach the pilot before that time runs out? Where are you -- the middle of the African jungle? But yes, if it does, the pilot is technically in violation of 91.7 if s/he flies the plane past the compliance period.
 
Ron Levy said:
I guess I'm not seeing how that happens. Are you saying the owner receives an AD requiring compliance in the near term but is completely unable to reach the pilot before that time runs out? Where are you -- the middle of the African jungle? But yes, if it does, the pilot is technically in violation of 91.7 if s/he flies the plane past the compliance period.
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FARs apply to aircraft of US registry. No mention is made of waiving the responsibility depending on location of said aircraft. There are large tracts of land in, say the American southwest where it is near impossible to establish timely communications. Actually, any back country environment would fill the bill.

More and more do I think Bob Reeves is underated as a hero for his devious methods of avoiding the feds.
 
http://www.alaska.net/~awss/HAviation1917.html

http://www.sheldonairservice.com/bob-reeve

One of his more illustrious stories involved an engine falling off it's mounts on, I think, a DC-4. Some chain, a come along, and he was back in business flying his routes. The feds got wind of this and were in hot pursuit. He stayed on step ahead of them across AK. He also would make sure to park the plane in a direction to hide the engine to any arriving aircraft. A couple times he made a swift departure just as the feds were landing.
 
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Richard said:
FARs apply to aircraft of US registry. No mention is made of waiving the responsibility depending on location of said aircraft.
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I was talking about being incommunicado so the owner couldn't reach you, not out of the jurisdiction so the FAA couldn't violate you.
 
Bob Noel said:
Do you check the AD database everytime you borrow an aircraft?
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THe only aircraft that I fly that do not belong to me is 1 C-150 and 1 172, I maintain both So I know the AD status..

But Yes I do check logs on every aircraft I fly.. how else would you know if it even had an annual with in the past 12 months?
 
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