roncachamp
Final Approach
I finally got it that there's nothing special about the procedures at KAPA? Yeah, whatever.
Tower, are you there?
- Thread starter Terry
- Start date
- Status
I finally got it that there's nothing special about the procedures at KAPA? Yeah, whatever.
Speed
Pre-takeoff checklist
Thing is, it seems like that would mean they'd need a bigger hole in traffic before they'd issue you a takeoff clearance. Here, I call in at the line and once in a while will get "71G, cleared for takeoff, no delay, jet traffic on a mile and a half final." By the time he's finished and I acknowledge, I'm on the runway with the throttle firewalled. I don't think that'd work so well calling in from the runup pad.
Not at all. They are sequencing you to the runway. When the tower is ready for you (i.e. sees a slot coming) he lets ground know, who tells you to taxi up to the hold-short line and monitor tower...The places I've seen this done they usually keep one or two waiting at the hold short line. As soon as one is cleared into position or for takeoff, ground is moving the next one up to the hold-short line.
roncachamp
Final Approach
How do you know that? Visit to the tower? Seems like unnecessary coordination to me. What's the point in waiting for a slot to move up a departure?
colohan
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2008
- Messages
- 163
- Display Name
Display name:
Chris Colohan
Another unusual airport convention -- Hanscom Field (KBED), just outside of Boston. A mix of jet and prop traffic use that airport, and there is a very large runup area at the end of the runway. When you are finished your runup, you pull up to the runway and get in line -- this is all normal.
By convention, the jets line up on the left, and the prop planes line up on the right (no, there are no pavement markings to indicate this). You switch to tower when you get in line, but you don't call them up until you reach the front of the line. If you call them up and tell them you are #3, they will ignore you until you reach the front of the queue and then ask "who is #1 now?"
Chris
By convention, the jets line up on the left, and the prop planes line up on the right (no, there are no pavement markings to indicate this). You switch to tower when you get in line, but you don't call them up until you reach the front of the line. If you call them up and tell them you are #3, they will ignore you until you reach the front of the queue and then ask "who is #1 now?"
Chris
ScottM
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 42,529
- Location
- Variable, but somewhere on earth
- Display Name
Display name:
iBazinga!
Not all, it also accomplishes compliance with the local procedures. Or do you advocate free for all and just let the pilots decide what they want to do when they do it and ATC should just suck it up?
Why do you think it proper for pilots to not follow directions?
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,448
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
ScottM
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 42,529
- Location
- Variable, but somewhere on earth
- Display Name
Display name:
iBazinga!
roncachamp
Final Approach
Why don't you think before you write?
ScottM
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 42,529
- Location
- Variable, but somewhere on earth
- Display Name
Display name:
iBazinga!
So you do advocate that pilots deviate from the local procedures if they do not agree with them?
roncachamp
Final Approach
No. Now please cite the statement that suggested to you that I advocated that so that I may help you gain an ability to read and understand simple English.
Clark1961
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 17,737
- Display Name
Display name:
Display name:
Well now, at APA you tell ground which runway you want and they tell you how to taxi there. Next, you don't taxi to the hold line (unless you're ready to go) but you do taxi to the run-up area. Then you call ground when ready to depart. Ground tells you to monitor tower and tower tells you when to go. It's simple and it works.
Unlike Steven claims, it is a special procedure unlike most other towered fields. One pilot I know who's flown out of APA for 20 years says it's unlike any other field he has visited. Operationally it's no big deal, just switch the radio from com 1 to com 2 after the call instead of before. Don't do like I did the first time there and actually just "monitor" tower rather than switching the radios.
Oops! (hey, they tol' me to "monitor")
ScottM
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 42,529
- Location
- Variable, but somewhere on earth
- Display Name
Display name:
iBazinga!
It is implied in what you are writing as you cannot seem to bring yourself to say that their procedures should be followed and instead argue about what it they are asking at KAPA.
Last edited:
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Scott, where in the AIM does it say that you should wait for ground to tell you to contact the tower?
From the current AIM:
4-3-14a. Pilots of departing aircraft should communicate with the control tower on the appropriate ground control/clearance delivery frequency prior to starting engines to receive engine start time, taxi and/or clearance information. Unless otherwise advised by the tower, remain on that frequency during taxiing and runup, then change to local control frequency when ready to request takeoff clearance.
ScottM
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 42,529
- Location
- Variable, but somewhere on earth
- Display Name
Display name:
iBazinga!
Lance, We are talking about an exception to what the AIM is saying in the local procedures for the KAPA airport. We are not talking about general procedures
I don't think you read all of the thread.
In the AFD and on the ATIS at KAPA it states
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KAPA
they have a local procedure that deviates from the AIM recommendations.
You might want to back up to post #13 where Mari said:
Roncachamp seems to feel that pilots should not follow the KAPA local procedure even though it is also documented in the ATC guidelines for ATC there, and it is ok for pilots to deviate from it at will. I am just wondering where he thinks that authority comes from and if it applies to other ATC procedures that pilots can just ignore in non emergent times.
Last edited:
K
KennyFlys
Guest
Lance, his reference is in the Airport/Facilities Directory for KAPA. Local rules would override the standards in the AIM since the AIM is advisory and not regulatory in nature.
A PDF of the A/FD page for KAPA is attached. The applicable instruction is at the bottom of the page under "Comm/Nav/Weather Remarks."
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,448
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
And she sure opened a big can of worms with that...
ScottM
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 42,529
- Location
- Variable, but somewhere on earth
- Display Name
Display name:
iBazinga!
kkoran
Pattern Altitude
Nothing in the A/FD entry would prevent a pilot from proceeding to the hold line and then telling Ground Control that he is ready to depart.
ScottM
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 42,529
- Location
- Variable, but somewhere on earth
- Display Name
Display name:
iBazinga!
agreed.
K
KennyFlys
Guest
True, but the most common practice at most airports is to remain in the run-up area and advise ground "Run-up complete." After that, they may direct you to the runway and have you monitor tower, or they may have you hold your position until after other traffic has passed.
I guess bottom line... unless you know the standards and procedures down pat at that airport, follow what the A/FD says and don't make any further moves beyond your last stable position; in this particular case at APA, you would be in the run-up area.
But, if one reads further in the AIM, turbine aircraft are assumed to be ready for takeoff upon reaching the runway hold short line. So, Mari's expected to be smarter and ahead of her airplane better than the rest of us.
I'm not saying she really is. She's only expected to be.
Edit: The word "on" removed above. I hadn't even realized I added that word.
Last edited by a moderator:
jmaynard
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 1,487
- Location
- Fairmont, Minnesota
- Display Name
Display name:
Jay Maynard
Indeed. I hereby award Mari the Golden Can Opener Award, for the biggest can of worms opened lately.And she sure opened a big can of worms with that...
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,448
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
And here I thought I was being helpful. I don't often have such innocent intentions.
sba55
En-Route
Wait, I can't be bothered to read this entire thread, so I'm still confused.
Do I call ground control for my IFR clearance? Or Tower? And then Tower for taxi? Weird.
-Felix
Do I call ground control for my IFR clearance? Or Tower? And then Tower for taxi? Weird.
-Felix
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
I read the whole (stinkin) thread, but had a brain fart when I read your post. Somehow I saw AIM when you wrote AFD.
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,448
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
You can just treat it like an uncontrolled field.
Let's make KAPA a side trip for the west-midwest fly-in so you guys can all practice! I'll call to warn the tower... or is it ground...
K
KennyFlys
Guest
How can you be so confused? It's not like some corporate pilot threw wrench into the works?I read the whole (stinkin) thread, but had a brain fart when I read your post. Somehow I saw AIM when you wrote AFD.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Huh? That doesn't sound like "common practice" to me at all - The only time I do that is when assigned runway 21 for takeoff, as there is no runup area near that runway, so I do the runup on the ramp and then call to continue taxiing.
Common practice is to call ground for taxi, taxi to the runup area, proceed to the hold short line, and contact tower.
I've also never had Ground direct me onto an active runway for takeoff - That's Tower's job.
K
KennyFlys
Guest
I saw I accidentally added the word "on" to my earlier post. No wonder it was misinterpreted. Sorry about that!
But, on your other point... At PDK and other towered airports with a run-up area, the preference is to remain in the run-up area then call ground with "Run-up complete." If there's only so much space to enter the runway(s) or if they have traffic approaching the end for immediate departure on the parallel, it's good to remain in the run-up area lest you block their path. Ground wants to have a bit more control over matters for more efficient flow.
At Austin, we don't have run-up areas but we are fortunate enough to have two lead lines from the taxiway onto the runway for 17L/35R.. So, we little guys can take the inside lead while the turbines can take the outside lead for the longer TORA. We also have parallel taxiways on our side so that helps a lot.
The downside is we have high speed exits on "our side" so the air carriers often beg to land 17L
kkoran
Pattern Altitude
I guess your experience is different from mine. I learned at KSNA--after runup, pull up to the hold line (or join the back of the line) and call tower. I've never been anyplace were you call to before leaving the runup area.
I agree that pilots should follow the guidance in the AIM if they don't know the local convention (though they should follow published procedures); however, I don't see any basis for your statement that they shouldn't "...make any further moves beyond your last stable position".
Controllers also expect piston aircraft to be ready for departure when they reach the hold line after they depart the runup area.
ScottM
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 42,529
- Location
- Variable, but somewhere on earth
- Display Name
Display name:
iBazinga!
ScottM
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 42,529
- Location
- Variable, but somewhere on earth
- Display Name
Display name:
iBazinga!
And here I thought I was being helpful. I don't often have such innocent intentions.
. . .. . . . . . . . . . . ,.-‘”. . . . . . . . . .``~.,
. . . . . . . .. . . . . .,.-”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .“-.,
. . . . .. . . . . . ..,/. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ”:,
. . . . . . . .. .,?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\,
. . . . . . . . . /. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,}
. . . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`^`.}
. . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:”. . . ./
. . . . . . .?. . . __. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . :`. . . ./
. . . . . . . /__.(. . .“~-,_. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`. . . .. ./
. . . . . . /(_. . ”~,_. . . ..“~,_. . . . . . . . . .,:`. . . . _/
. . . .. .{.._$;_. . .”=,_. . . .“-,_. . . ,.-~-,}, .~”; /. .. .}
. . .. . .((. . .*~_. . . .”=-._. . .“;,,./`. . /” . . . ./. .. ../
. . . .. . .\`~,. . ..“~.,. . . . . . . . . ..`. . .}. . . . . . ../
. . . . . .(. ..`=-,,. . . .`. . . . . . . . . . . ..(. . . ;_,,-”
. . . . . ../.`~,. . ..`-.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..\. . /\
. . . . . . \`~.*-,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..|,./.....\,__
,,_. . . . . }.>-._\. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|. . . . . . ..`=~-,
. .. `=~-,_\_. . . `\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\
. . . . . . . . . .`=~-,,.\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . `:,, . . . . . . . . . . . . . `\. . . . . . ..__
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .`=-,. . . . . . . . . .,%`>--==``
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _\. . . . . ._,-%. . . ..`
TknoFlyer
Pre-takeoff checklist
This is the flow I recall from my last flight to KPDK:
Me (N2871R): Ground, N2871R at Epp's ready to taxi with Oscar.
Ground: N2871R, Peachtree Ground. Taxi to run-up for Runway 2. Advise front of the line.
The key here is I was instructed to go to the run-up area, not the runway. (See attachment to see where the run-ups are.) If I didn't need the run-up, I would have negotiated a clearance direct to the runway.
Sanford, FL is one of the busiest Class C airports I've been to. I've never been instructed to taxi to a run-up area there and they expect you to taxi as instructed. (A typical instruction there is "taxi to runway 27R at Romeo via right side Kilo, Bravo, Romeo.") They also have the luxury of large aprons for the FBOs giving you plenty of room to maneuver for a run-up without having to contact Ground.
roncachamp
Final Approach
I can't help you if you refuse to cooperate.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Wrong. The ATC Standard Operating Procedures conflict with the procedure in the A/FD.
roncachamp
Final Approach
That's what the A/FD is telling pilots to do.
ScottM
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 42,529
- Location
- Variable, but somewhere on earth
- Display Name
Display name:
iBazinga!
AFD said:
How are those two things in conflict?
Or are you talking about ATC SOP in general and not the specific KAPA ATC SOP?
roncachamp
Final Approach
Thats precisely the procedure at APA according to the tower SOP. But the A/FD directs pilots to contact ground control when ready and ground control will advise when to monitor tower. That's two unnecessary transmissions as ground control has already told the pilot to switch to tower frequency and monitor.
ScottM
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 42,529
- Location
- Variable, but somewhere on earth
- Display Name
Display name:
iBazinga!
Does not appear that way from what you posted previoulsy
roncachamp said:
If the pilot advises the tower that his run up is complete why would KAPA ATC then tell him to monitor tower? He would already be on the frequency. But if he had advised ATC on the ground freq as it states to do so in the AFD then the KAPA ATC SOP that you posted makes sense to tell him to go and monitor the tower freq.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Prior to your run-up, does KSNA ground control tell you to taxi to a runway or do they tell you to taxi to a run-up area?
K
KennyFlys
Guest
Steven, I'm gettin dizzy reading your post. Stop the merry-go-round!
- Status