Tough call...

J

jesse

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
16,012
Location
...
Display Name
Display name:
Jesse
Received a call from someone wanting to learn to fly. One of the very first questions they asked me was if we could provide financing. I then go into my typical speech recommending they don't do that and list the various reasons.

I tell folks that I am quite confident they won't find a better deal in the region and I tell them about all the competition in the region and the instructors I would recommend. I then tell them that they should meet with each instructor I've listed and pick the one they feel they can work with the best. (BTW, I've never done this and had a person not choose me. They're always quite confused as to why I gave them all that information).

Anyways. The student still tells me he really can't afford it. He says that it was the desire of himself and his brother to get their private certificates after they returned from Iraq. His brother never made it back.

Sigh...
 
It is what it is.

Did he have any GI Bill benefits? They recently changed the rules again that 141 schools counted under that I believe.
 
Jesse's flight instruction is Part 61, not 141, and thus doesn't qualify.

The reality for many people who wish to go that route is that 141 allows financing which, regardless of whether or not it makes a lot of financial sense, is the only way that many people can do it. For people who want to do it for a living, it probably makes more sense.
 
I wonder if there are any organizations that help fund this kind of thing. A charity to help people like this guy. I could get behind something like that.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Jesse's flight instruction is Part 61, not 141, and thus doesn't qualify.

The reality for many people who wish to go that route is that 141 allows financing which, regardless of whether or not it makes a lot of financial sense, is the only way that many people can do it. For people who want to do it for a living, it probably makes more sense.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I knew that.

Jesse could start the evil paperwork process to be his own 141 school. Haha. Yuck.
 
denverpilot said:
Yeah. I knew that.

Jesse could start the evil paperwork process to be his own 141 school. Haha. Yuck.
Click to expand...

If you are set up as a 141 school, do you always have to follow the 141 standards, or could you have some students following 61 syllabi and others following 141?
 
I didn't think the GI Bill paid for a Private. At least it didn't in the past.
 
mikeinbama said:
I wonder if there are any organizations that help fund this kind of thing. A charity to help people like this guy. I could get behind something like that.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

If he was wounded and has a disability, Able Flight might be able to help him through the Sport Pilot level. They have had several wounded warriors get their Sport Pilot and Light Sport Repairman certificates. Have him check out www.ableflight.org.
 
gil_mor said:
I've seen PPL students using the GA bill.
http://www.northaire.com/veterans-benefits.html
Click to expand...
This is what it says on the FAQ site for the Post 9-11 GI Bill.

https://gibill.custhelp.com/app/ans...sion/L3RpbWUvMTMzNjg3MTU0NS9zaWQvQThpdmJaWGs=

Can I Receive Benefits For Flight Training?

Yes, you may receive benefits for commercial flight training under all benefit programs except the Dependents’ Educational Assistance program (Chapter 35.)

This benefit is available for Flight Training such as:

Rotary wing qualification
B747-400 Qualification
Dual Qualification
Flight engineer
In order to qualify, you must have a private pilot's license and valid medical certification before beginning training. Payments are issued after the training is completed and the school submits information to the VA.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
I had potential students give me all kinds of stories like that. Only thing I can say is that if he is a veteran he can use his GI Bill after his private. It is sad, and a very heart warming situation he is in, but it is what it is as DenverPilot said.
 
Last edited:
I used my GI Bill to get my multi add on. You have to have your private as that is considered by the government as recreational, not vocational.
 
The revised GI bill that applies to sandbox veterans does cover private training, I believe... but I also don't think funding's been allocated for it.

The "old" Montgomery GI Bill did not cover the Private certificate.
 
TMetzinger said:
The revised GI bill that applies to sandbox veterans does cover private training, I believe... but I also don't think funding's been allocated for it.
Click to expand...
That's not what the link I posted above says. It's the FAQ from the Department of Veteran's Affairs.
 
I stand corrected. While this was something that AOPA and others pushed for in the post 9/11 GI bill, it didn't make it into the final legislation.
 
CJones said:
If you are set up as a 141 school, do you always have to follow the 141 standards, or could you have some students following 61 syllabi and others following 141?
Click to expand...

No, a 141 school can do part 61 training. I did my ME addon at a 141 school following the 61 syllabus.
 
Jesse:

Can you vet this story?

If it's truly legit, I'd be in for a C-note if PoA wants to help get this guy at least to solo.
 
SCCutler said:
Jesse:

Can you vet this story?

If it's truly legit, I'd be in for a C-note if PoA wants to help get this guy at least to solo.
Click to expand...

You know... That's a good point. I'd be up for that too, if the story pans out. I've certainly spent $100 on stupider crap.
 
Anyways. The student still tells me he really can't afford it. He says that it was the desire of himself and his brother to get their private certificates after they returned from Iraq. His brother never made it back.
Click to expand...

All the more reason for that boy to take the flight. If it's what he and his brother intended to do, then it's something he can do, a little at a time, to complete the bridge that he started. It's a way to reach back and touch his brother once more, and I guarantee every flight thereafter, for him, will have an added meaning that others will never understand.

An introductory flight, perhaps a half-price lesson, might be enough to get him on the property. He doesn't need to fly often; we all know it takes longer if he doesn't fly often, but we all have our paces. I did two years, getting to the private. A year to solo and another year to wrap it up, becuase of cost. We do what we can, and he needs to do the same.

The first step is to get him to the airport, get him involved. Sounds like this is something he needs to do. Help him understand that.

With calls like this, I alwyas tried to ensure that if they didn't accept an offer, then I at least had their contact information to follow up. It may not be the right time today, but it may be later on. Your school may be different, but we often found ways to adjust things for people, just a bit. Perhaps they got a little knocked off the price of an hour, in exchange for washing and waxing the airlplane. That cut profit or funds, but not excessively, and the money was spent on business, it was deductible, and it was work that needed to be done. The fusion with the flying was something else; the student who felt that much more invested in the flying he was doing, by committing himself that much more fully to the show, tended to be more aggressive and interested in what we did. He or she took the flying more seriously, the studies more seriously, and ended up finding ways to fly more.

Sounds like you already run a cost-effective program and that you try hard to make it a bargain for the average person. That a good thing in today's touch climate, and makes good business sense. You can't swing everyone in the door, but everyone needs a little different reason to justify spending that money. Once they start spending it, they lose the aversion and get bitten by the bug. Feed the bug. The kid you describe needs it as much as anyone. Bring him on board.
 
Jesse - how much (on average) does it cost one of your students to get to PPL? Would he be satisfied with Recreational? Would that cost about half? In other words, how many PoA pilots would need to kick in $100 each to get him a license?
- Peggy
 
SCCutler said:
Jesse:

Can you vet this story?

If it's truly legit, I'd be in for a C-note if PoA wants to help get this guy at least to solo.
Click to expand...
Well at this point all I have is his word.

AuntPeggy said:
Jesse - how much (on average) does it cost one of your students to get to PPL? Would he be satisfied with Recreational? Would that cost about half? In other words, how many PoA pilots would need to kick in $100 each to get him a license?
- Peggy
Click to expand...
It's just so tough to say. I've soloed students in as little as 9 hours and as high as nearly 40. I really don't think the recreational pilots certificate would save much of any money..which is why nobody does it. I do not have access to a LSA airplane and the only LSA rental in the region (that I couldn't instruct in) costs more then the Cessna 150.

If he were small enough for a Cessna 150, and I didn't charge for the instruction, we'd be looking at a minimum of:

$91 * 40 hours = $3640
With Tax = $3894.80
$200 misc supplies = $4094
$350 DPE = $4444
$150 written = $4594

He is younger and sometimes that does translate to some faster learning but it's hard to say in the end what it'd work out to.
 
My reading of the Recreational is that you are pretty much qualified as soon as you are qualified to solo. You skip the night and cross-country training. Not the same as LSA, which has its own restrictions.

So, anyway, estimate about 46-50 AUs for PPL.

[edit] I missed where you say, "If I didn't charge..." That isn't fair on you, so, let me guess it ought to be another (at least) 10-20 AUs.
 
Last edited:
If you can confirm that this guy is legit, I would be willing to pitch in what i can. Maybe skip a weekend flight and give $100. Its the least I can do, honestly.
 
Jesse if you think this guy is what he appears to be, and really deserves this. (And only you know) maybe you could get a paypal account going for him. I have been saving up to start my training, but i could pitch in some of it. Sounds like he deserves at least a chance.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
 
denverpilot said:
It is what it is.

Did he have any GI Bill benefits? They recently changed the rules again that 141 schools counted under that I believe.
Click to expand...

GI Bill flight training was always under Part 141. For my sins, I administered the 141 program at the flight school I flew for and the paperwork was horrific. The gummint would not touch Part 61 with a ten-foot pole.

Side note: The veteran paid nothing up front but was sent a 90 percent refund check to his (no hers at the time) home address after we certified that he had received the training he was being billed for. Of the hundreds of vets who passed through our operation only one took the money and ran....and there was nothing we could do about it.

Bob Gardner
 
jesse said:
Received a call from someone wanting to learn to fly. One of the very first questions they asked me was if we could provide financing. I then go into my typical speech recommending they don't do that and list the various reasons.

I tell folks that I am quite confident they won't find a better deal in the region and I tell them about all the competition in the region and the instructors I would recommend. I then tell them that they should meet with each instructor I've listed and pick the one they feel they can work with the best. (BTW, I've never done this and had a person not choose me. They're always quite confused as to why I gave them all that information).

Anyways. The student still tells me he really can't afford it. He says that it was the desire of himself and his brother to get their private certificates after they returned from Iraq. His brother never made it back.

Sigh...
Click to expand...


Jesse, all, be very skeptical of people claiming they have been in the war, or a war, or any war. I have found dozens if not hundreds of people claiming to be Viet Nam combat vets, Gulf war vets, Afghanistan war vets, and a lot of them are lying.

There are alot of people claiming to be something them are not. ;)
 
Jesse, you're a young teacher. Take it from an older one--you're going to encounter this sort of thing many more times. Your answer to these sorts of queries are up to you. As long as you give each situation careful consideration, then you've done what you could.

jesse said:
Received a call from someone wanting to learn to fly. One of the very first questions they asked me was if we could provide financing. I then go into my typical speech recommending they don't do that and list the various reasons.

I tell folks that I am quite confident they won't find a better deal in the region and I tell them about all the competition in the region and the instructors I would recommend. I then tell them that they should meet with each instructor I've listed and pick the one they feel they can work with the best. (BTW, I've never done this and had a person not choose me. They're always quite confused as to why I gave them all that information).

Anyways. The student still tells me he really can't afford it. He says that it was the desire of himself and his brother to get their private certificates after they returned from Iraq. His brother never made it back.

Sigh...
Click to expand...
 
jesse said:
Well at this point all I have is his word.
Click to expand...
I'm going to be cynical here for a second: I wonder if he read that article about you and knows that you have a kind heart & is trying to appeal to that.

And not quite as cynical: You have to go with your "gut" feeling.

Whatever you decide, Jesse, you are (pardon the expression) a good egg. :yesnod: I'm glad to "know" you.
 
bobmrg said:
GI Bill flight training was always under Part 141. For my sins, I administered the 141 program at the flight school I flew for and the paperwork was horrific. The gummint would not touch Part 61 with a ten-foot pole.

Side note: The veteran paid nothing up front but was sent a 90 percent refund check to his (no hers at the time) home address after we certified that he had received the training he was being billed for. Of the hundreds of vets who passed through our operation only one took the money and ran....and there was nothing we could do about it.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

Interesting - when I used mine (in the '90s) I paid for the training up front, the school submitted a monthly report, and I got 60% ( I think, perhaps it was 80%) of it back in a check from the VA - which I then rolled back into training.

That's how the schools around here do it now - nobody "advances" any money.
 
If he is for real, you can ask him to show you his DOD Form 214. This is the official release from service form which documents in summary his service.

Then Google his name at his hometown newspaper. I'd bet they have a story on one brother not making it.

It is a start....

-Skip
 
AuntPeggy said:
My reading of the Recreational is that you are pretty much qualified as soon as you are qualified to solo. You skip the night and cross-country training. Not the same as LSA, which has its own restrictions.

So, anyway, estimate about 46-50 AUs for PPL.

[edit] I missed where you say, "If I didn't charge..." That isn't fair on you, so, let me guess it ought to be another (at least) 10-20 AUs.
Click to expand...

I think you are off a factor of 10 on your estimate. 1 AMU = $1000.00
 
Skip Miller said:
If he is for real, you can ask him to show you his DOD Form 214. This is the official release from service form which documents in summary his service.

Then Google his name at his hometown newspaper. I'd bet they have a story on one brother not making it.

It is a start....

-Skip
Click to expand...


If he is Army, I can look him up in AKO , and at least verify Unit and rank, then a follow up call with his commander or unit staff to verify. Then with some google FU , more info could be obtained
 
Personally, I think if you took every case like that to heart you would go nuts. I'm also a veteran, and I had a desire to fly too, and I made it happen on my own. So can he and other vets.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Personally, I think if you took every case like that to heart you would go nuts. I'm also a veteran, and I had a desire to fly too, and I made it happen on my own. So can he and other vets.
Click to expand...

I agree. I'm a veteran who wants to fly, and someday I will. But for now, I can't, and I don't expect someone to give it to me for nothing.
 
It's the losing a brother thing that pulled my heart string. If he is legit I stand by my offer to help out. I know we can't help every single vet out there...but Jesse has spoken on this guys behalf here and I'd say that's worth something.

Maybe a match of some sort? He gets his PPL at half price (sorta fitting given the story) and the GI Bill can pick up the rest?

Just spit ballin here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top