Touch and Go's

Jaybird180 said:
Okay, I'll play along. I like the idea of a go-around from flare:

I come in, and round out with the stall horn, I wait for the sink, then pull into the flare and the horn is wailing. You, the CFI yell, "Go Around!". I'm already low and slow in ground effect. I push power all the way in, but cannot climb with flaps 30 at gross. The airfield has a 41 foot obstacle at the departure end of the 2420' runway. Whats the pucker factor at my home field?
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It would help if you followed the balked landing checklist. Flaps 30 is not consistent.
 
The event you described has absolutely nothing to do with touch and go's.

fgcason said:
Some days I'm slower than you. I had a baggage door supposedly come open on a CE150 during training just as the plane got light on the wheels during takeoff. WTF? Seriously? I finally sorted out what he was trying to get me to do..at about 300AGL. About then I said we still had enough runway and if he wanted me to land and stop. That didn't go over too well but it would have been perfectly safe to do so. Yea, sure, I didn't know how many pulleys are involved in cable routing to the flight controls but I certainly knew enough about the plane to know that the only two loading doors on it were closed..and the little oil door on top of the cowling was closed too. A week later "oh sh3t stop the plane" kept the plane on the ground like he wanted me to do.


Touch and go's are useful skills to have no matter who thinks otherwise.
I've had things scamper out on the runway in front of me deep in the flare several times...coyote's, deer, ground hogs, cows. Someone even dropped a haybail on the runway that I didn't see until I was under 15ft AGL. There is no room for swerving around like a cellphone texting drunk due to loss of directional control because the runway was lined on both sides by 75-100ft tall trees in close proximity.
My aunt got clobbered in one of the not so nice downdrafts coming over the end of the runway. It threw her at the ground, the plane hit the ground hard (bent the prop) and bounced back up enough to somehow end up going uphill at treetop level (tree pieces in the aileron and flaps) and she managed to keep it flying and got it going back in the right direction before running out of airspeed. That was a nightmare touch and go and NOT the kind of place for a first touch and go especially considering there really is no room on that runway and valley to be doing touch and go's in the first place.

Everyone can do what they want in their ideal safety first world. I will continue doing touch and go's in my realistic safety third world..because it keeps me safe.
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MAKG1 said:
It would help if you followed the balked landing checklist. Flaps 30 is not consistent.
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but it is consistent with the landing checklist.

Point of the Question is: when do you pull flaps to 20 in this scenario?
 
Jaybird180 said:
but it is consistent with the landing checklist.

Point of the Question is: when do you pull flaps to 20 in this scenario?
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According to the balked landing checklist, immediately. Full throttle, carb heat cold, flaps to 20, airspeed 55, retract flaps slowly.
 
How long will it take to get to 55? How much runway do you have available?

Remember you started 1" off the deck, nose high, below stall speed.
 
Jaybird180 said:
How long will it take to get to 55? How much runway do you have available?

Remember you started 1" off the deck, nose high, below stall speed.
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About the same as for a soft field takeoff. Which is more or less what you're doing.

Getting a bit far afield with this "example," aren't you?

Remember, drag is reduced in ground effect. Take advantage of it.
 
I would only try it at altitude. Flaps 30 are not approved for that in my airplane.
 
wabower said:
The event you described has absolutely nothing to do with touch and go's.
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So what you're saying is touching the ground then lifting off again and going around is not a touch and go?

The difference between a training T/G and a real world T/G is that in the real world conditions may not be all pretty and pristine and controlled. If you don't have the discipline and experience to maintain directional control when things are simple, you're definitely not going to have that skill when things aren't working out so well when you're not expecting it.
 
brcase said:
Except most pilots doing normal landing (as opposed to short field) don't actually come in lower or land shorter than most pilots using partial flaps. That is because during the normal full flap approach most pilots doing full flap landings negate the effect of the flaps by leaving the power in.
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Thanks much to the whole "stabilized approach" thing that was blown out of proportion to "fly airliner style approaches in light aircraft".

The intent of that big push was right, it was just misunderstood by so many people and trained by way too many folks headed for airliner cockpits who have no interest in learning the full envelope of the normal category LIGHT aircraft and flying them appropriately.

With flaps 40 my approach needs to be STEEPER, power off. There's a whole lot of ninnies out there, including WAY too many CFIs who think STEEPER means NON-STABILIZED. These are not necessarily related!

(Most of whom should be repeatedly hit with a brick until they either succumb to their injuries or come to their senses. They're not doing anyone any favors keeping this damn myth going.)

I showed a newly Commercial Rated pilot his first Flap 40 full slip (rudder pedal on the floor) approach from 1/4 mile off the end of the runway at pattern altitude last year. We landed on the numbers.

He'd NEVER SEEN SUCH A THING! I wanted to ask him for his MULTIPLE CFIs phone numbers so I could call each and ask them "WTF?!" but decided it wasn't worth my time.

Better to show him how STABLE such an approach CAN be. And that it requires practice to know WHEN to start down, like any other technique. Trim set, airplane made its way all the way to the runway -- without a single pitch change.

Release rudder and remove bank, normal flare. Land.

What are these idiots teaching the kiddos at these schools? It's certainly not airmanship. Sigh.
 
I'm saying that you're drawing bullseyes around the bullet holes. Hitting a tree isn't part of a T&G. After it happened whatever the pilot decided to do was simply a survival maneuver that could easily have turned out badly no matter what the pilot did or didn't do afterwards. Fortunately, the botched-landing go-around worked without injury, but describing it as a touch and go is grossly inaccurate.

fgcason said:
So what you're saying is touching the ground then lifting off again and going around is not a touch and go?

The difference between a training T/G and a real world T/G is that in the real world conditions may not be all pretty and pristine and controlled. If you don't have the discipline and experience to maintain directional control when things are simple, you're definitely not going to have that skill when things aren't working out so well when you're not expecting it.
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Jaybird180 said:
I would only try it at altitude. Flaps 30 are not approved for that in my airplane.
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Practicing at altitude won't work. Different density, different viewpoints for the kind of precise control input that is needed to effect a take-off with full flaps.

First of all, flight manual procedure is not what we are talking about. Handling the airplane in an unintended take-off after touch down is what we are talking about, and I've never seen the subject mentioned in any POH. They list a go-around as if you are initiating on final with 1.3 Vso.

Unless you are really at full gross weight and at max DA, most of these little airplanes will lift off with full flaps, but won't climb much, but there is technique in safely raising the flaps.

Using a manual flap handle allows the pilot to gradually raise the flaps while accelerating and climbing. Effectively keeping the same angle of attack by adding elevator pressure while releasing flap handle pressure. You can feel the exchange of pressures, so it is easier to develop than with electric switches.

But it still can be done.

Momentarily flip the flap switch up while maintaining the same pitch, rest a second, flip it up again adding back pressure to maintain an attitude that is climbing and accelerating towards Vx. Hold Vx(or Vy) and continue to raise the flaps. It's called 'milking' and I'm sure you have heard of it.

Eventually, you will see that you can just hold the flap switch up continuously and add the elevator back pressure (angle of attack) that you are losing with the flap retraction.

It would be good to practice the rough procedure at altitude if you don't feel comfortable with a competent instructor, but you have to do it from the ground to get the experience of milking it if you really have to.
 
Z06_Mir said:
"flaps up, let's go" ----- my CFI in training.
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I think we had the same CFI.

For my part, we actually did a bunch of low-passes (5 or 6) before we did our first landing. He wanted me to be able to control the float and get out of it cleanly.

After that, it was all T&Gs -- I didn't realize there was any controversy with them until I saw this thread.

In fact, I did my first stop-and-goes just last night so that I could take my wife out for our first flight together.
 
denverpilot said:
With flaps 40 my approach needs to be STEEPER, power off. There's a whole lot of ninnies out there, including WAY too many CFIs who think STEEPER means NON-STABILIZED. These are not necessarily related!
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+1. Here's my "stabilized" approach...constant airspeed and descent rate. I've been told that some of the flight school guys at my airport think I'm crazy.

http://vimeo.com/49733018
 
whifferdill said:
+1. Here's my "stabilized" approach...constant airspeed and descent rate. I've been told that some of the flight school guys at my airport think I'm crazy.

http://vimeo.com/49733018
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Nice. :yes:

That seems to be a normal approach in a Pitts. And, looked like a 45-50* bank for most of it :hairraise: See the other thread
 
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fgcason said:
So what you're saying is touching the ground then lifting off again and going around is not a touch and go?

The difference between a training T/G and a real world T/G is that in the real world conditions may not be all pretty and pristine and controlled. If you don't have the discipline and experience to maintain directional control when things are simple, you're definitely not going to have that skill when things aren't working out so well when you're not expecting it.
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A go around on the flare (or after a momentary touch down) is fundamentally different that a touch and go. The order of operations is fundamentally different. And doing the order of operations for a touch and go during an emergency balked landing dramatically increases the odds of an accident.

That you seem to not know the difference reinforces my point about the negative transfer from T&G practice to emergency go arounds.

A touch and go is a landing with a reconfiguration to takeoff configuration occurring while rolling.
A go around is arresting sink, staying airborne, and performing a reconfiguration while flying.

So, in short, a T&G is a stabilized reconfiguration followed by flying, while a go around is stabilized flying followed by a reconfiguration.
 
PilotAlan said:
.....So, in short, a T&G is a stabilized reconfiguration followed by flying, while a go around is stabilized flying followed by a reconfiguration.
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Good way to put it..:yes:..

Bottom line is... FLY THE FRIGGIN PLANE... And that means all the way to the tie down, or another lap around the pattern.
 
You have to be way behind the eight ball to need to do a go around from a wheels down. The go around is also not always going to be your safer option, often times if you are in a small plane at proper landing speed, for anything that may 'pop up' in the time between you start to level out for the landing and the time you roll off the runway you'll likely be best off just standing on the brakes and steering and taking it best you can slow as you can.

Remember, it's acceleration forces that kill you in a crash, that and penetrating trauma. You want the minimal rate of deceleration which means start slow and keep slowing towards a glancing strike as far from the cabin as possible. If you are landing around 40 kts where you should be in your light trainers, you can survive as long as you have 50' and dead accurate aim and energy control; it's gonna hurt yeah, but you'll make it to do a 709 ride.

The record of guys doing questionable go arounds to a fatal end is not perfect in its failure to provide statistical sampling. It happens from LSA to HP 1400+ HP work planes, people are at the edge of AoA and ram home the throttle and lose it because they failed to lead the throttle with the rudder. It's as far as I know a 100% fatal maneuver if it takes you for a ride.
 
Henning said:
Remember, it's acceleration forces that kill you in a crash, that and penetrating trauma.
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Yep. I've said here before that I'd rather go off the end of the runway (or into an obstruction) at 30kts and 0 ft AGL than into the trees at flying speed and 40ft AGL.

I was a traffic homicide investigator and EMS medic. If you have a shoulder harness, there's not much that can happen at 30kts and zero AGL that will kill you.
At flying speed and 40ft AGL, the odds are not in your favor.
 
Henning, I know you said small plane, but I recall a thread where there was discussion of heavies on an IFR missed would sometimes touchdown before getting airborne again.

Should the airline bound guy wait until then to experience it for the first time?
 
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