Touch and Go in actual?

[roncachamp]

I can't speak to the flight plan filed with FSS, but until Tower calls Approach and says "he's on the ground," the TRACON cannot clear anyone else into that airspace, and they must keep the missed approach airspace clear.

We're not talking about a separation issue.

 

[nosehair]

When you're doing a touch-and-go, the departure clearance is issued before, or during, or shortly after the approach clearance is issued, and yes, you are doing a new take-off and must comply with departure procedures.
And as far as the 200 ceiling goes, do you take off into a 200' ceiling? That's your prerogative, but the clearance for the touch-and-go, which is an approach clearance and a departure clearance stands regardless of actual wx.

 

[Fearless Tower]

my personal opinion is that T&G's in general are an unnecessary risk and I don't do them in CAVU.

Yes, but you fly an older Beech twin. I myself won't do T&Gs in the Baron, but have no problem in most GA planes.

 

[comanchepilot]

Ok - here are the facts as I know them.

Guy was cleared for the ILS Approach. Shopped to Tower. Told Tower that he wanted the Option. Tower gave him the Option. Visibility was low enough that they did not see him land - he called them on the missed and said he was airborne.

Apparently the ODP at this airport mimics the Missed.

He then contacted Approach and told them he was on the 'missed' - they they asked him intentions and he went back to the airport he left which had an 800' ceiling.

He touched down, retracted flaps to take off position and off he went. There is a video I have seen of the approach, touch down and initial stages of the T&G.

It all ended up ok - its not a violation of any direct FAR of which I am aware.

I just wouldn't do it . . . .

 

[poadeleted20]

...its not a violation of any direct FAR of which I am aware.

I just wouldn't do it . . . .

I can't see anything wrong with either statement.

 

[JimNtexas]

Ok - here are the facts as I know them.

Guy was cleared for the ILS Approach. Shopped to Tower. Told Tower that he wanted the Option. Tower gave him the Option. Visibility was low enough that they did not see him land - he called them on the missed and said he was airborne.

Apparently the ODP at this airport mimics the Missed.
. . . .

In actual IMC the Tower probably should have given the pilot some kind of clearance to follow in the event of radio failure after the missed/stop-n-go.

But it sounds like this particular case boils down to a pilot who executed a missed approach and went to an alternate. If so, nothing to see here, move along please.

 

[Captain]

For the life of me I can't imagine coming down the rails trying to have two missed procedures in my head. One to follow if I go missed at the DA and another (ODP) if I go after.

I promise you that if I break out and proceed and for some reason at the threshold decide it's not good I'm going to go missed and follow the published missed. No way am I going to look up an ODP and no way do I pre brief an ODP just in case.

Also, I'm pretty sure ATC would always expect the published unless they give you alternate instructions. I get a t&g is odd, but I'm still thinking ATC would expect the published over the ODP.

 

[gismo]

When landing at an airport with a functioning control tower, IFR flight plans are
automatically canceled. At what point have you landed?

I'd like to think that's when you've left the runway with the wheels still on the ground.

 

[Velocity173]

Once again, you're not going to get a published missed when doing a T&G.
If the aircraft requested the option then he should've received climb out instructions from ATC. If he did not get climb out instructions because ATC screwed up then he should've excecuted the missed at the MAP. Since he got clearance for the option and his intent was to touch down, then he should've had the awareness to request alternate climb out instructions from the twr. If he is doing multiples or going back to another airport those instructions will have nothing to do with the published missed.

4−8−12. LOW APPROACH AND TOUCH AND-

GO​

Consider an aircraft cleared for a touch-and-go, low
approach, or practice approach as an arriving aircraft
until that aircraft touches down or crosses the landing
threshold; thereafter, consider the aircraft as a
departing aircraft. Before the aircraft begins its final
descent, issue the appropriate departure instructions
the pilot is to follow upon completion of the approach
(in accordance with para 4−3−2, Departure Clearances).
Climb-out instructions must include a
specific heading or a route of flight and altitude,
except when the aircraft will maintain VFR and
contact the tower.​

EXAMPLE−​

“After completing low approach, climb and maintain six
thousand. Turn right, heading three six zero.”


​

 

[aterpster]

It's not uncommon for large aircraft shooting Cat III approaches to have their main gear touch the runway on a missed. Remember, when you're cleared for an approach, your clearance limit is the holding fix on the missed approach.

A CAT III IAP is assessed for that possibility. The LDA at KTVL is not, nor are most IAPs.

 

[Captain]

This thread is about asking for and receiving touch and go clearance. I never do that so I'll stay out of that part. But,

Descending below a DA/MDA is not a suicide pact with ATC if something then goes wrong. If you, at any time, decide flying more is the safer course of action then that's what you do. You don't need to declare an emergency, your wheels may or may not touch, and you fly the published missed if unable VFR. You never have to ask yourself if the wheels touched to determine if you fly the published or an ODP.

With that said, there are such things as Visual Segments on approaches. You need to be aware of those and know if you're on such a thing. I brought up KASE before and it fits here. A hard right climbing turn would not be wise over the threshold in Aspen. But then, you are on a Visual Segment so you are on your own as far as what your going to do in leu of the Published Missed Procedure.

That's why I brought up landing on a taxi way before at that airport. It's an option I would seriously consider. I have also circled short final there and landed on 33 due to a hard shift in winds (calm to 20 kt tail for 15). So, it's obvious the taxiway isn't choice one, but it's there if needed.

 

[JeffDG]

OK, so a practical question...let's take this to a non-towered situation so you have less opportunity to communicate.

Once below minimums, if something occurs that requires you to not complete your landing, be it some visual obstruction (not likely, but possible), or an unsafe condition on the runway, what is the practical solution?

The missed is only obstruction cleared from the MAP, so you're below that point, and following the missed could blunder you into an obstacle in the soup...not a happy thought.

Should you (again, speaking practically, not legally) fly the ODP if there is one? That, at least, provides you full obstacle clearance. It's not like someone else will be doing a departure at the same time for you to run into until you get back with ATC.

 

[aterpster]

OK, so a practical question...let's take this to a non-towered situation so you have less opportunity to communicate.

Once below minimums, if something occurs that requires you to not complete your landing, be it some visual obstruction (not likely, but possible), or an unsafe condition on the runway, what is the practical solution?

The missed is only obstruction cleared from the MAP, so you're below that point, and following the missed could blunder you into an obstacle in the soup...not a happy thought.

Should you (again, speaking practically, not legally) fly the ODP if there is one? That, at least, provides you full obstacle clearance. It's not like someone else will be doing a departure at the same time for you to run into until you get back with ATC.

Points well taken. But, put it in context of KTVL as an extreme, but not alone:

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1305/05416LDAD1_18.PDF

Be sure to look at the ODP as well. The climb gradient is terrible.

That is an issue with many high minimums IAP; e.g., the ODP has a climb gradient, sometimes a steep gradient.

 

[poadeleted20]

For the life of me I can't imagine coming down the rails trying to have two missed procedures in my head. One to follow if I go missed at the DA and another (ODP) if I go after.

I promise you that if I break out and proceed and for some reason at the threshold decide it's not good I'm going to go missed and follow the published missed. No way am I going to look up an ODP and no way do I pre brief an ODP just in case.

Also, I'm pretty sure ATC would always expect the published unless they give you alternate instructions. I get a t&g is odd, but I'm still thinking ATC would expect the published over the ODP.

99 times out of 100, that will work. It's that other 1% for which you must be prepared, and the approaches where that's necessary should be obvious when you study the chart. Giveaways are things like a long visual segment from the MAP to the runway, an MDA higher than TPA, circling approaches near high terrain, etc.

 

[Velocity173]

You know, something this guy probably did was report missed to twr but really was just departing with climb out instructions already issued by approach. I used to hear that all the time from my students. I'd have to tell them that we're not missed and we aren't doing the missed approach procedure. Two different things.

 

[coma24]

I'm struggling to understand the training value associated with a T&G in those conditions. It's a whole bunch of extra workload for not a lot of value.

I did request a through clearance when I wanted to get a full stop taxi back at a non-towered airport once. Neither the ATC trainee or the ATC instructor had a clue what I was asking for and simply told me to report 'on the missed' even if that was considerably later than normal *wink, nod, nudge*. I don't blame 'em, the through clearance is a largely academic task at this point, they don't occur much in the wild.

 

[coma24]

In fact, I found the intercom from that flight (in a 172): http://keith.tristesse.com/attach/677 (20MB ).

Relevant calls start at 4:12 in that recording, requesting "through clearance."

Bear in mind, this is the intercom audio, not the liveatc audio, so it includes my own self chatter. Detailed flight log for this flight is here (back when I had time to do these!): http://keith.tristesse.com/object/night_instrument_approaches.html

 

[Velocity173]

I'm struggling to understand the training value associated with a T&G in those conditions. It's a whole bunch of extra workload for not a lot of value.

I did request a through clearance when I wanted to get a full stop taxi back at a non-towered airport once. Neither the ATC trainee or the ATC instructor had a clue what I was asking for and simply told me to report 'on the missed' even if that was considerably later than normal *wink, nod, nudge*. I don't blame 'em, the through clearance is a largely academic task at this point, they don't occur much in the wild.

They were probably trying to figure out if they could allow you to tie up the airport that long. Some non-towered airports have enough IFR traffic where a through clearance just isn't going to work.

 

[coma24]

They were probably trying to figure out if they could allow you to tie up the airport that long. Some non-towered airports have enough IFR traffic where a through clearance just isn't going to work.

I'd argue that they had no idea what I was asking for, rather than it being a traffic flow issue. My reason for that suspicion is a result of his use of the phrase: "I'm not sure what you're asking for, sir..." as you can hear in the recording

When they DID work out what I was asking for, I was told to "report the missed" and he clearly got that it would be a little while.

 

[nosehair]

I'm struggling to understand the training value associated with a T&G in those conditions. It's a whole bunch of extra workload for not a lot of value.

That would be strictly up to the individual student. Just like crosswinds, if your not ready, you shouldn't overload yourself.
However, like crosswinds, you do want to be able to handle as much as you can, and it could be possible that an actual or near touch and go could occur in actual conditions, and for all practical training purposes, it equates to doing the missed with a practice landing in the between.

I did request a through clearance when I wanted to get a full stop taxi back at a non-towered airport once. Neither the ATC trainee or the ATC instructor had a clue what I was asking for and simply told me to report 'on the missed' even if that was considerably later than normal *wink, nod, nudge*. I don't blame 'em, the through clearance is a largely academic task at this point, they don't occur much in the wild.

This is largely a practice in just plain language communication. Using a "through clearance" phrase may or may not communicate, but in all cases, you just explain you want a full stop taxi back. But that probably would require an estimated departure time, so be prepared for that, and expect to get it done within 10 minutes, or keeping in mind that your approach clearance includes your missed approach clearance automatically, a quick full stop taxi back at a small no traffic airport wont be any difference to them than a touch and go. Just do it.
But mainly, communicate in real terms when you are doing non-standard things.
ATC guys are students too.

 

[Velocity173]

A through clearance isn't a clearance to allow an aircraft to land, go get fuel and then to excecute the MAP for the airport. That's a misunderstanding on the part of the controller if he's telling you to report missed after a through clearance. The controller is required to issue separate departure instructions or ODP if published.

I wouldn't anticipate a through clearance getting approved if you plan on getting out, getting fuel and taking back off. Unless it's an airport that rarely gets IFR traffic you'd be better to just file to the airport and get a separate clearance outbound.

If you plan on never landing there, then that's not a through clearance, it's just a delay for practice approaches. Two different things.

 

[coma24]

Getting a clearance outbound from the ground would've been tricky as I didn't have a phone with me at the time, and there's no RCO/GCO. I was looking for a bonafide clearance out of the airport and I wanted to pick it up while talking to ATC. I was doing a full stop taxi back, not getting fuel.

This is precisely what a through clearance is for, afaik.

I did eventually explain it in plain terms after standard phraseology failed to get the desired response. I suspect through clearances are more common in areas where cellphone reception is spotty. I just didn't have a cellphone with me at the time.