Top of Climb - Cross Country

[hhins]

So, I'm re-reading all my books and have confused myself a little on cross country planning.

I've always just planned checkpoints normally without a "top of climb" point. I'm typically flying at 4500-5500 in my area. The cruise duration was made up of the entire flight and then the climb time/fuel added into the total like the taxi/runup fuel.

I now see how this can throw off my time estimates for reaching the first checkpoint.

The Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge doesn't include it in the navigation log and Rod Machado touches on it lightly but it seems like something I should have been told about in depth before planning a checkride XC.

Just looking for your thoughts before I ask my instructor which route they prefer I do.

Thanks

 

[ARFlyer]

I was always taught to figure out the top of climb and descent. I basically made each of them a checkpoint on my sectional and nav log. Now if I was flying our Maules, which do not have charts, then figuring out top of climb is basically useless.

I will teach my students to figure out TOC & TOD during there planning phase. It's also helpful to show them that some cruising alt wouldn't make much sense. If you choose one to high you will see that most of your trip will be climbing and descending. Spending long periods climbing for no reason is very inffiecent on fuel and time. Also it can be bad for the engine over time.

Now as long as you figure in the time and fuel. Marking it on a chart is up to you. I always found it helpful to mark it to check on my planning and to see if It held up to the current conditions.

The only time I really worry about it is on IFR flights and long distance trips. If I'm flying to some local airport or doing a short x/c then I just get the straight line time and fuel.

 

[Sac Arrow]

You have to treat TOC and TOD as separate legs of the flight, each with their own times, speeds and fuel burns. Figuring those out requires use of the airplane's performance charts.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ask your instructor. If you don't like what you hear, ask here. At the end of the day, in a light single, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

 

[TMetzinger]

Ask your instructor. If you don't like what you hear, ask here. At the end of the day, in a light single, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

I never bothered until I started flying turbocharged and turboprop airplanes and climbing to flight levels.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Geico266]

Ask your instructor. If you don't like what you hear, ask here. At the end of the day, in a light single, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

Really does not make any difference.

You are flying. You are going to take off and land each time you fly.

 

[bobmrg]

Too many variables to make the calculation worth while. How are you going to transition from the airport environment to the enroute environment? Are you sure? Not going to get an unexpected vector? Absolutely certain that the actual winds will mirror those you used in planning? Not going to have your climb interrupted by traffic or weather?

Go ahead and figure out a TOC, but don't be surprised if reality throws you a curve ball.

Bob Gardner

 

[hhins]

Thanks for the great replies so far.

Would you think it would be expected for my checkride XC in a c152?

 

[david0tey]

Thanks for the great replies so far.

Would you think it would be expected for my checkride XC in a c152?

He might want to see it on your flight log but he won't hold you to it. In fact, it is not often that he will even let you get up to your planned altitude. On my checkride I had planned for 6500 but we only got up to 2500. If you can explain to him that you know how to determine your TOC, that should suffice.

 

[Geico266]

He might want to see it on your flight log but he won't hold you to it. In fact, it is not often that he will even let you get up to your planned altitude. On my checkride I had planned for 6500 but we only got up to 2500. If you can explain to him that you know how to determine your TOC, that should suffice.

This is good stuff to know, but you will never use it in the real world. Good luck with your CC.

 

[comanchepilot]

TOC depends on many factors, weight, temp, wind, speed, avail power, etc etc etc, as Bob mentions -

The only way you can then plan the descent is to know your average speed and that will depend also on speed, temp, and wind -

To descend take your altitude to lose at 500fpm, multiply by 2, and the whole number is your minutes to start your descent - you need to reduce that number by up to 2 min depending on winds and speed.

 

[John221us]

Too many variables to make the calculation worth while. How are you going to transition from the airport environment to the enroute environment? Are you sure? Not going to get an unexpected vector? Absolutely certain that the actual winds will mirror those you used in planning? Not going to have your climb interrupted by traffic or weather?

Go ahead and figure out a TOC, but don't be surprised if reality throws you a curve ball.

Bob Gardner

I did get dinged by the DPE for not taking into account the transition. He mentioned that my flight planning was from the center of the airport, but I did a right crosswind departure. He stated that this could sometimes affect the route by a mile or two.

 

[denverpilot]

I did get dinged by the DPE for not taking into account the transition. He mentioned that my flight planning was from the center of the airport, but I did a right crosswind departure. He stated that this could sometimes affect the route by a mile or two.

While true, that's a touch picky. If I'd ever seen a 100% accurate winds aloft forecast, I might start to care, even.

I would have had a hard time biting my tongue on that one, but would have, because snarky comments will just make the ride harder...

I think sometimes DPEs make sure to pick on something just to make darn sure we all realize there's no such thing as a prefect pilot, and we all can still learn something on each flight. And alternately to see how we all handle stress.

Since the grading scale is simply pass/fail, I just accept the criticism and learn from it.

 

[poadeleted20]

Thanks for the great replies so far.

Would you think it would be expected for my checkride XC in a c152?

No. The examiner might ask you to show you know how to use the climb charts, but on a typical PP practical test XC plan where you're only climbing to 2500 feet or so, s/he won't be concerned by lack of a TOC point on your nav log.

 

[poadeleted20]

I did get dinged by the DPE for not taking into account the transition. He mentioned that my flight planning was from the center of the airport, but I did a right crosswind departure. He stated that this could sometimes affect the route by a mile or two.

The examiner is right about that last part, and I've seen pilots get boggled a bit by it. That's why I teach them to start the nav leg from what I call a "get found" point -- something large and prominent close to the airport in the direction the flight will take you that you can see, fly to, fly over, and turn on course upon departure from any runway.

 

[HerrGruyere]

Yeah that actually makes sense, and I think I might start doing that on my next XCs.

That also probably explains why my TOC times were off. I had to factor in the extra minute or two it takes to turn to the correct course and backtrack the distance it took to do so. My instructor has never held me to the standards of the Cessna's TOC chart. However, she has seen me use it and knows I know how to use it, which is more important, I suppose.

 

[TMetzinger]

The examiner is right about that last part, and I've seen pilots get boggled a bit by it. That's why I teach them to start the nav leg from what I call a "get found" point -- something large and prominent close to the airport in the direction the flight will take you that you can see, fly to, fly over, and turn on course upon departure from any runway.

Exactly. I always had a prominent landmark near the airport I used as my first checkpoint on my flight plan, and I teach students the same way.

 

[DaleB]

The examiner is right about that last part, and I've seen pilots get boggled a bit by it. That's why I teach them to start the nav leg from what I call a "get found" point -- something large and prominent close to the airport in the direction the flight will take you that you can see, fly to, fly over, and turn on course upon departure from any runway.

For whatever reason, none of my instructors ever mentioned, taught or required anything about TOC. The DPE didn't ask about it either. While I know how to calculate it, I also like to do my flight plan ahead of time, like like a day or two in advance. You never know which direction you'll be taking off, and in a light piston single even that can throw you off by a mile or three.

So, I do the same thing. I start my nav log check points at a known point a few miles out from the airport -- far enough out that I've got time to avoid other traffic, climb out, etc. I don't feel the need to time things down to the second, and to be honest I'm not really all that concerned with exact times anyway. I keep track of where I am on the sectional as I fly. I'll admit to using the GPS most of the time for ETE and distance, but I do have the nav log for backup.

 

[HerrGruyere]

I use a cement plant or Harper's Ferry as my first checkpoints, depending on direction of flight. It's perfect because by then I'm usually at my cruising altitude.

 

[dell30rb]

I think sometimes DPEs make sure to pick on something just to make darn sure we all realize there's no such thing as a prefect pilot, and we all can still learn something on each flight. And alternately to see how we all handle stress.

Since the grading scale is simply pass/fail, I just accept the criticism and learn from it.

They are kinda like a detective playing 'good cop, bad cop'

 

[bobmrg]

The examiner is right about that last part, and I've seen pilots get boggled a bit by it. That's why I teach them to start the nav leg from what I call a "get found" point -- something large and prominent close to the airport in the direction the flight will take you that you can see, fly to, fly over, and turn on course upon departure from any runway.

Something like a "sea buoy" for us nautical types...a point of departure.

Bob Gardner

 

[hhins]

That's why I teach them to start the nav leg from what I call a "get found" point -- something large and prominent close to the airport in the direction the flight will take you that you can see, fly to, fly over, and turn on course upon departure from any runway.

I really like this idea, gets you started on the right foot.

Just thinking about the topic more, time/distance/fuel to climb POH calculations for my aircraft are done at Vy instead of the normal enroute climb speed that we typically used in training so my numbers wouldn't line up anyway.

 

[somorris]

I have never marked TOC on a chart, but I think it is useful for planning fuel use. It takes a little more fuel to climb and you won't be covering as much ground.

 

[denverpilot]

Exactly. I always had a prominent landmark near the airport I used as my first checkpoint on my flight plan, and I teach students the same way.

Heh. You guys wouldn't like KAPA. They want to know your direction of flight prior to taxi and once they aim you at it, they want you gone.

Turning to go find some waypoint, you'd have to use one far outside the Delta since most of the nearby ones are inbound aircraft checkpoints and it's smart to avoid them outbound. (KOA radio tower southeast for example is a "you'd better be eyeballs outside" place, for one example.)

They're going to have a heck of a time with the "no opposite direction" moratorium here. There's only the one ILS from the south and they're always putting southbound Takeoffs and Visual Approaches head to head with trainers putting down the ILS. The clearance is always, "Break off the approach prior to Lincoln Avenue [or the power lines] to the East."

 

[iWantWings]

You have to treat TOC and TOD as separate legs of the flight, each with their own times, speeds and fuel burns. Figuring those out requires use of the airplane's performance charts.

I added the emphasis; during my cross country plannaing i learned how to use the performance charts, as well as got an idea of the values for TAS, time en route to a certain altitude, rate of climb, and distance of ground to reach a certain altitude. Interesting and useful stuff.

But I never planned my checkpoints to coincide with the point where the cruising altitude was reached, and because of that, there was a little arithmetic that I had to do when getting performance data for the navigation log.

All in all, it was very useful for me to always calculate peroformance specifically for top of climb.

In practice, however, there are so many things going on while climbing that i do it mostly be "feel" rathern than by instruments and no way am i calculating my actual values for time and distance in the portion where I am climbing. I can barely chew gum while climbing and looking out for traffic and glancing at guages and climb checklist...