Tools and space requirements to build

[Richard]

I've oft fiddled with the notion that I'd like to build an aeroplane. I've built small boats (<34') and helped build others (<100') so I know what I need for those jobs but what about building an airplane?

Let's say, like Bill Jennings, I want to build an RV-8. What would be the minimum requirements for space and tools? Yeah, I could build it in a shoebox but one thing I really don't like in a shop is having to skinny between the project and the walls or benchtop.

My expertise is in wood although I've done quite a bit of fiberglas lay ups and I have only the most basic knowledge of riveting sheet alum. Lets sa I did want to use alum, what kind of tool expenditure am I looking at, include specialty tools.

Buying tools is to me what shoes are to Imelda so I'm not tool shy.

 

[etsisk]

The more room you have, the better off you are. Sonex says that you should have a minimum of something like 12x16', but that's a bit cramped for my tastes. What I would like would be a 20'x30' shop!

You'll need to look at the worktable requirements and remember that you have to be able to get around all sides of it (stretching across doesn't always work!).

You will need a few tools for aluminum - bandsaw (with a nice blade from, say, carbide.com), drill press (variable speed best), belt sander (with woven belts), bench grinder (for your scotchbrite wheel). A compressor will make drilling, riveting and whatnot much easier, using air tools instead of heavier electric tools. Lots of ear and eye protection. Lots of it. It can be a loud, messy proposition! oh, also a 10"x10" pad mounted on the wall for you to bang your head against when you made two left-hand parts instead of mirror imaged parts. That helps, 'cause it reduces splinters in your head.

It can be fun, I've heard! (um, building - not head-pounding!)

 

[Bill]

Let's say, like Bill Jennings, I want to build an RV-8. What would be the minimum requirements for space and tools?

Lets sa I did want to use alum, what kind of tool expenditure am I looking at, include specialty tools.

Buying tools is to me what shoes are to Imelda so I'm not tool shy.

A local fellow did a slow build RV-9 in an oversized one car garage, did everything there up to hanging the wings, then he moved to a hangar. Although a bit geeky, his page is QUITE detailed (as in 200 pages) in documenting his build:

http://www.n2prise.org
http://www.n2prise.org/rv9a001.htm (shows the townhouse and garage)

If I go for it, I plan to start in 1/2 of a standard two car garage, and then move on to taking the whole garage (kicking the wifes car out ) as space is needed. I have a large finished 950sq ft basement that I can use for smaller parts fab and as a stocking, inventory, and small finished parts storage area.

I know this won't be easy, and in fact will be quite daunting, but I know what type of plane I want to eventually own, and a Vans RV-8 is just about exactly what I'm looking for. I've done all of my own car/motorcycle repair and maint, and done that for dozens of years. As an ex Navy Nuc, I also like knowing the systems big picture, and by building your own, you will KNOW that plane, inside and out.

Vans web site estimates approx. $1500 of tools will need to be purchased.

http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rqd-tool.htm

I'm considering taking a builders construction class, these guys are highly recommended and are about 2.5hrs drive from me:

http://www.buildtofly.com/dotnetnuke/
http://www.buildtofly.com/dotnetnuke/RVTailKitProgram/tabid/52/Default.aspx

The plusses here are:

1.) Build you tail feathers in a week
2.) Get expert training/advice on how to build the plane
3.) Don't waste time building the empennage jigs
4.) Learn exactly what tools work and buy what you need after gaining insight into the building process.

The minuses: The course costs ~$1500, but that is small bucks to pay for good training, and is but a drop in the bucket overall project cost wise.

I plan on diong a quick build, and will order the QB at the completion of the builders course. Vans is showing about 3 months lead time on the QB kit, that would give me time to procure tools and ready the workspace.

That is as far as I've planned yet, I haven't yet decided on model/builder for the engine, I know I want C/S prop, and then the fun of putting together an IFR panel with approach certified GPS connected to a coupled autopilot.

Whee, its fun to dream!!!

 

[Richard]

A local fellow did a slow build RV-9 in an oversized one car garage, did everything there up to hanging the wings, then he moved to a hangar. Although a bit geeky, his page is QUITE detailed (as in 200 pages) in documenting his build:

http://www.n2prise.org
http://www.n2prise.org/rv9a001.htm (shows the townhouse and garage)

If I go for it, I plan to start in 1/2 of a standard two car garage, and then move on to taking the whole garage (kicking the wifes car out ) as space is needed. I have a large finished 950sq ft basement that I can use for smaller parts fab and as a stocking, inventory, and small finished parts storage area.

I know this won't be easy, and in fact will be quite daunting, but I know what type of plane I want to eventually own, and a Vans RV-8 is just about exactly what I'm looking for. I've done all of my own car/motorcycle repair and maint, and done that for dozens of years. As an ex Navy Nuc, I also like knowing the systems big picture, and by building your own, you will KNOW that plane, inside and out.

Vans web site estimates approx. $1500 of tools will need to be purchased.

http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rqd-tool.htm

I'm considering taking a builders construction class, these guys are highly recommended and are about 2.5hrs drive from me:

http://www.buildtofly.com/dotnetnuke/
http://www.buildtofly.com/dotnetnuke/RVTailKitProgram/tabid/52/Default.aspx

The plusses here are:

1.) Build you tail feathers in a week
2.) Get expert training/advice on how to build the plane
3.) Don't waste time building the empennage jigs
4.) Learn exactly what tools work and buy what you need after gaining insight into the building process.

The minuses: The course costs ~$1500, but that is small bucks to pay for good training, and is but a drop in the bucket overall project cost wise.

I plan on diong a quick build, and will order the QB at the completion of the builders course. Vans is showing about 3 months lead time on the QB kit, that would give me time to procure tools and ready the workspace.

That is as far as I've planned yet, I haven't yet decided on model/builder for the engine, I know I want C/S prop, and then the fun of putting together an IFR panel with approach certified GPS connected to a coupled autopilot.

Whee, its fun to dream!!!

Wow, sounds like a nice dream you have there, Bill. I've looked into the EAA workshops but I can't see spending up to $400 for a 1.5 day hands-on seminar covering just the basics. Heck, I could donate that money to a local A&P for a year's worth of informal instruction.

OTOH, I have been looking at some quick build kits. I really like the Falco with full IFR panel. Bill, what nudged you over the edge from thinking about it to actually doing it?

 

[gismo]

The space needs vary with the level of completion and which components you are working on. I think you could manage an RV-8 in a single car garage up to the point of attaching the wings. OTOH it would go a lot easier if you have enough space for the tools you might need.

 

[Shipoke]

Well richard there is a guy here building a RV i think in his basement,if you give me a Number i can have him contact you and tell you what you need. He is a EAA member in your local chapter and has done interveiws with the local news paper,so i'm sure he'll help .
Dave G
P.S. you can send number to my Email gaiski@comcast.net

 

[Henning]

I've oft fiddled with the notion that I'd like to build an aeroplane. I've built small boats (<34') and helped build others (<100') so I know what I need for those jobs but what about building an airplane?

Let's say, like Bill Jennings, I want to build an RV-8. What would be the minimum requirements for space and tools? Yeah, I could build it in a shoebox but one thing I really don't like in a shop is having to skinny between the project and the walls or benchtop.

My expertise is in wood although I've done quite a bit of fiberglas lay ups and I have only the most basic knowledge of riveting sheet alum. Lets sa I did want to use alum, what kind of tool expenditure am I looking at, include specialty tools.

Buying tools is to me what shoes are to Imelda so I'm not tool shy.

I'd look at a glass plane if I were you, it'll save you a bunch of time and expense. Look at the Glassair line, they have a fixed and retractable trigear and conventional design.

I'm looking at doing a steel tube with foam and composite skin plane.

Space is the same for either material. You'll be able to do most of it in a garage, with final assembly at an airfield or suitable place to operate.

If you really want to go aluminum, tool costs to set up can vary greatly. The best deal is look in TAP or an EAA pub and see who's selling out. "Cleaning the Hangar Sales" from old repair stations, mechanics and builders typically offer the best deals. Be prepared to spend at least $1000 in specialty tools. Remember, when building in aluminum, you can never have too many Cleco fasteners. Unless I was set up and familiar with aluminum rivet skin construction, I don't think I'd choose it.

 

[Bill]

Bill, what nudged you over the edge from thinking about it to actually doing it?

1. $60-90k can buy me a 30-50 year old spam can that may be full of surprises, or with some sweat equity, can buy me a new airplane with a new engine that would have my confidence.
2. I want an aerobatic taildragger that is IFR capable, efficient, and reasonably speedy. Citabria is neither IFR nor speedy. Pitts is not IFR (or even long trip VFR friendly). An Extra would fit the bill (well, maybe not efficient), but is far FAR out of my league, pricewise. A Zlin 242 is a possibility, but most nice IFR examples are still well north of $100k. The RV-8 fits the requirements at a somewhat palatable price.
3. The repairmans certificate appeals greatly to me, owner annuals, airframe repairs/maint. Should reduce long term fixed costs.
4. Experimentals have many more options regarding avionics/electronics. Mucho cool non-certified stuff at good prices. If I tire of my panel, or some new gizmo comes on the market that I just can't live without, I can re-do the panel myself.
5. Owner mods: owners have installed golf club caddies, folding bike bays, extra storage areas, your options are limited my your imagination. I like knowing I can modify the plane without having to go through a lot of hassle.
6. I think it would be cool to do all of the above.
7. I can spread out the purchase costs somewhat over the course of the project.
8. I will remain a member of the local flying club and rent their planes when I need to fly my wife and daughter.
9. I still haven't gone for it yet, but I'm waiting for a few financial things to line up, then we go.

I'd look at a glass plane if I were you, it'll save you a bunch of time and expense.

Unless I was set up and familiar with aluminum rivet skin construction, I don't think I'd choose it.

Henning, why the strong glass bias? I'd think it would be harder for Joe A Lunchbucket to properly mix the chemicals and properly layup the surfaces. I'd be worried about strength, excessive weight, proper curing, delamination, etc.

While Al construction will require an investment in tools, I like the fact that it is well proven, and the engineering is pretty much all done. Skin thickness/strength, etc., is already done, just build it.

Also, if you run into problems, an A&P can give you advice. This applies to problems during build as well as something causing minor damage far from home. An A&P would have the tools and be able to get you back in the air. Damage to glass is tough.

I don't suppose there would be any chance of you getting to the Gastons thing in June?

 

[Henning]

Henning, why the strong glass bias? I'd think it would be harder for Joe A Lunchbucket to properly mix the chemicals and properly layup the surfaces. I'd be worried about strength, excessive weight, proper curing, delamination, etc.

While Al construction will require an investment in tools, I like the fact that it is well proven, and the engineering is pretty much all done. Skin thickness/strength, etc., is already done, just build it.

Also, if you run into problems, an A&P can give you advice. This applies to problems during build as well as something causing minor damage far from home. An A&P would have the tools and be able to get you back in the air. Damage to glass is tough.

I don't suppose there would be any chance of you getting to the Gastons thing in June?

Having done a lot of work in both glass and aluminum, glass is much easier for Joe average to get right. Seriously, there are severely retarded individuals working in FG shops. Not a dig on mongoloids, rather a testament to them, so it is not that difficult. Follow the mixing instructions and all will be ok.

As for the engineering, polyester/fiberglass construction has been around since the 40s, so the engineering there is pretty well entrenched.

Damage to glass is very simple to fix. You can carry 2 pounds of materials with you and repair any minor damage in nearly any conditions. If you need to do larger and more major repairs in remote locations, it's still easier with glass as you don't really Need power to do them, just some very basic hand tools.

 

[Bill]

Follow the mixing instructions and all will be ok.

Damage to glass is very simple to fix. You can carry 2 pounds of materials with you and repair any minor damage in nearly any conditions. If you need to do larger and more major repairs in remote locations, it's still easier with glass as you don't really Need power to do them, just some very basic hand tools.

OK, so mission is taildragger, sport aerobatic capable, IFR, 180kts cruise on IO-360, two real seats, prefer tandem. What glass options are there to look at?

 

[Henning]

OK, so mission is taildragger, sport aerobatic capable, IFR, 180kts cruise on IO-360, two real seats, prefer tandem. What glass options are there to look at?

Start here http://www.glasairaviation.com/. I believe there are design optiond for fixed or retract, TDs... Look at the Lanceairs as well...bunch of stuff out there.

 

[Bill]

Start here http://www.glasairaviation.com/. I believe there are design optiond for fixed or retract, TDs... Look at the Lanceairs as well...bunch of stuff out there.

Lanceairs are not aerobatic rated, so out with them.

The Glasair III looks like a hot moma, but I'd put total project cost at 2x over the RV-8. Super fast, though.

I guess the SII FT in TD config would be comporable spec to spec, but looks to be somewhat more pricey compared to the RV-8.

I've got to educate myself, because my gut reaction still scares me to do a glass airplane over an aluminium one.

 

[Henning]

Lanceairs are not aerobatic rated, so out with them.

The Glasair III looks like a hot moma, but I'd put total project cost at 2x over the RV-8. Super fast, though.

I guess the SII FT in TD config would be comporable spec to spec, but looks to be somewhat more pricey compared to the RV-8.

I've got to educate myself, because my gut reaction still scares me to do a glass airplane over an aluminium one.

It all depends on your skill set and where you live/base the plane. If you live in the coastal regions, I'd go F/G, in the desert Aluminum. I'm not meaning to run down the RVs, I've flown the 4 the 6 and 7, and liked them just fine. I just owned an aluminum plane in FL and it was an expensive experience.

 

[Bill]

It all depends on your skill set and where you live/base the plane. If you live in the coastal regions, I'd go F/G, in the desert Aluminum. I'm not meaning to run down the RVs, I've flown the 4 the 6 and 7, and liked them just fine. I just owned an aluminum plane in FL and it was an expensive experience.

OK, the Glasair SII FT and the RV-8 have almost identical performance specs, but the kit costs are not even close. Both prices are for a quickbuild kit (most everything sans engine, prop, avionics, interior, and paint)

RV-8: ~$25,000
SII FT: ~$48,000

So, my question is, is a glass bird really worth a 2x premium over an Al bird, other factors (performace, etc.) being equal?

I don't see where the extra is going (other than most of a glass bird is petrochemical, and we all know how the price of oil has driven up costs).

I still lean heavily towards the RV for a first project, all things (cost included) considered.

 

[gismo]

OK, the Glasair SII FT and the RV-8 have almost identical performance specs, but the kit costs are not even close. Both prices are for a quickbuild kit (most everything sans engine, prop, avionics, interior, and paint)

RV-8: ~$25,000
SII FT: ~$48,000

So, my question is, is a glass bird really worth a 2x premium over an Al bird, other factors (performace, etc.) being equal?

I don't see where the extra is going (other than most of a glass bird is petrochemical, and we all know how the price of oil has driven up costs).

I still lean heavily towards the RV for a first project, all things (cost included) considered.

One advantage of the RV is that it's safer in the unlikely event you experience a lightning hit. AFaIK Glassair doesn't offer any lightning protection which is required for any certified composite aircraft that allows IFR operations.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

One advantage of the RV is that it's safer in the unlikely event you experience a lightning hit. AFaIK Glassair doesn't offer any lightning protection which is required for any certified composite aircraft that allows IFR operations.

Out of the blue, after ~25 years, the old Glass Air co. or whatever it was called went bankrupt a few years ago as I recall, leaving their builders with a major PITN. If ANY co. doesn't have enough $ on hand and labor to send their parts COD or some other secure way, I'd be leary of handing them 50%$K to "cover expenses" for their kit in advance.

 

[Doug R]

I have wanted a RV 6/7 for at least 12 years. Came so close to ordering one it was scary..form filled out check written and wife saying ok. Then the reality of building the thing hit me and I had to be brutally honest with myself along with my friends questioning my logic. Long story short I did not order the plane. Would luv to own one but, have no desire or patience to build the thing.

 

[Bill]

I have wanted a RV 6/7 for at least 12 years. Came so close to ordering one it was scary..form filled out check written and wife saying ok. Then the reality of building the thing hit me and I had to be brutally honest with myself

Yup, right now I'm doing research and prep, but the real moment of truth is when you cut the check and send it along. The point of no return...you're committed (or should be committed ) then.

 

[Doug R]

Bill, good luck to ya. I hope you decide that you can build one. They are an excellent airplane. For me the day of reality was when I wrote out the 20 something thousand dollar check and paper clipped it to the order form to be faxed off. I had that gut feeling of ..ok make sure this is what you want to do. I'm ok with my decision not to build at the present time, but have left a window open down the road. I still find myself trolling the RV websites from time to time getting that gotta have it feeling. Honestly there is nothing out there in production that I can afford or want to buy that gets me excited. I can think of only one production plane I would like to own at this time and its an Extra 300. Best plane I have ever flown..period, but out of my reach. I would be lucky to fly 20 hours a year for fun anyway, Staying busy enough doing this stuff for work.

I do agree with you regarding your reasoning 100%. My plane would be a 180hp RV7a with IFR Avncs and a tru-trak auto pilot.

 

[CowboyPilot]

A local fellow did a slow build RV-9 in an oversized one car garage, did everything there up to hanging the wings, then he moved to a hangar. Although a bit geeky, his page is QUITE detailed (as in 200 pages) in documenting his build:

http://www.n2prise.org
http://www.n2prise.org/rv9a001.htm (shows the townhouse and garage)

If I go for it, I plan to start in 1/2 of a standard two car garage, and then move on to taking the whole garage (kicking the wifes car out ) as space is needed. I have a large finished 950sq ft basement that I can use for smaller parts fab and as a stocking, inventory, and small finished parts storage area.

I know this won't be easy, and in fact will be quite daunting, but I know what type of plane I want to eventually own, and a Vans RV-8 is just about exactly what I'm looking for. I've done all of my own car/motorcycle repair and maint, and done that for dozens of years. As an ex Navy Nuc, I also like knowing the systems big picture, and by building your own, you will KNOW that plane, inside and out.

Vans web site estimates approx. $1500 of tools will need to be purchased.

http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rqd-tool.htm

I'm considering taking a builders construction class, these guys are highly recommended and are about 2.5hrs drive from me:

http://www.buildtofly.com/dotnetnuke/
http://www.buildtofly.com/dotnetnuke/RVTailKitProgram/tabid/52/Default.aspx

The plusses here are:

1.) Build you tail feathers in a week
2.) Get expert training/advice on how to build the plane
3.) Don't waste time building the empennage jigs
4.) Learn exactly what tools work and buy what you need after gaining insight into the building process.

The minuses: The course costs ~$1500, but that is small bucks to pay for good training, and is but a drop in the bucket overall project cost wise.

I plan on diong a quick build, and will order the QB at the completion of the builders course. Vans is showing about 3 months lead time on the QB kit, that would give me time to procure tools and ready the workspace.

That is as far as I've planned yet, I haven't yet decided on model/builder for the engine, I know I want C/S prop, and then the fun of putting together an IFR panel with approach certified GPS connected to a coupled autopilot.

Whee, its fun to dream!!!

Well, Bill, a partner and I did exactly what you want to do--we done it a couple of years ago.

We didn't do the quick build thing--built our own jig, which is something I'll NEVER do again. That, by far, was the biggest pain of the whole project.

We built the jig and set up the basic fuselage in my partner's garage. He'd built a homebuilt (bi-plane, from plans--not a kit) before, so he had the experience of "starting from the ground up."

Not long after, we moved it to my hangar. I've got a bit over 5,000 square foot hangar with a two-bedroom apartment home on the upper half, and all the tools. In building this thing, the single most useful tool of all was the big air compressor. Then, as Tom (Etisk) says, band saw, band sander, etc etc.

Just follow the plans and do not get in a hurry. Van has a good support system in place, but the best support system are the fellow RV owners/flyers out there. If you haven't, I'd be going to every RV fly-in I could find and ask every question you can think of. For the most part, the plans are pretty good, but there are some deviations in certain areas (like the tailwheel) in which there are better ways.

For what it's worth, we put a Lycoming IO-360 normal aspirated engine with a two-blade CS prop in ours. The panel is minimum IFR and I'd have to look at my charts to see what empty weight is--but we can do 200mph true with ease. Coming back from the LOE fly-in, we leaned way back to around 55% and still made 170 mph with a fuel burn of around 5.5 gph, and didn't really have any winds helping or hindering us.

My partner flies this thing way more than I do. My newly rebuilt Skyhawk is reintroducing me to "fun flying" and now that I'm officially retired from everything, the wife and I are taking the Cardinal more places since it will go further, faster and higher. She does NOT like the RV8 at all--hates the backseat (which isn't comfortable, no matter how you look at it) and having a stick right where she normally sets her book. So looks like I'll be selling my half of the plane to my partner.

Thinking of ordering an RV10, but am also looking at the Four Winds. The more I look at it, the more I like it. But I'd like to see a few finished and up flying first. . .

Good luck with your dream and keep at it. It will be worth every drop of sweat and every penny and every spare minute spent.

-JD

 

[Bill]

If you haven't, I'd be going to every RV fly-in I could find and ask every question you can think of.

I joined EAA a few months back, and there is a local chapter I'll be joining after the holidays, good resourceful guys. One guy has built a Long Ez and three Vans, and is presently building a Harmon Rocket II. He is an A&P-IA, and said he'd help me with whatever I need to learn. Another member, the guy who build the plane listed above (www.n2prise.org) is presently helping another friend do a QB Rv-8, and said he'd help me along as well. A third fellow buys and restores Globe Swifts (has three projects going on now, loves those planes). A fourth is Bonanza owner who is an A&P...etc etc etc.

It looks like I have some very experienced local RV experts available.

Good luck with your dream and keep at it. It will be worth every drop of sweat and every penny and every spare minute spent.

Thanks, JD, I'm very excited to begin. I jsut have to wait until a few financial goals are met so I can go at it full throttle once I start.

I can think of only one production plane I would like to own at this time and its an Extra 300. Best plane I have ever flown..period, but out of my reach.

I concur 100%. Our own Chip gibbons let me have 20min of stick time in the 300L at Gastons 2005, and it forever changed my outlook on airplanes. What an awesome piece of work! Like you, I'll never be able to afford one, but it sure was nice to even be able to fly one. (Thanks again, Chip!)