Too good to be true?

kevin47881

kevin47881

Final Approach
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Time to fly!
Alright folks, I need some honest input and what better place to make the request.
As some of you are aware, I've had plane fever for over a year and just can't find the right deal on the right plane.
I spoke with a friend of mine (use to own the flight school where I got my ticket) who is an AP about a plane for sale on the field. He did the annual and had reservations about a recommendation.
So, we continue BS'ing and he informs me his 1970 Cherokee 180 is for sale if interested. I have flown the plane when it was on the flight line and am familiar with it. What he wants and what I'm willing to give are a few acres apart. After much discussion he offers to keep the plane, put me on the insurance and let me use the plane at my will (he only flew the plane 6x last year). The offer he made is the same as he had with another gentlemen who is buying his own bird.
I will have no out of pocket expense and will not have any ownership.
So, without further ado, here are the numbers. I must say it looks "too good to be true" so punch holes in proposal.

All numbers are based on a very modest 4 hours per month:

Current FBO rental for 172 SP with tax $533/month

Proposed offer for Cherokee 180:
4 hours at $20/hour = $80
Fuel for 4 hours= $144
Fixed expenses = $200
Total for 4 hours = $424/month


Thanks in advance for your input.
 
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Around here a 172R rents for 126, 172S for 133 and a PA28-161 for 115 ** plus fuel surcharges

The Archer II I fly is $350 for 4 hours wet, can carry over up to 10 hours a month, named on the owners Ins and right now we are down to two of us flying. Additional hours are $87. I had no security type deposit either, just a straight up monthly dues. Best part is fuel away from home is taken off dues or traded for time.

I would take 106 an hour it beats the rental rate and......not everyone and their mother is in and out of the aircraft beating the crap out of it.


GOOD LUCK !! Lets see some pics!
 
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Your post is a little unclear. Here is what I think you mean:

You can fly as much as you want for $200/month, $20/hour use, and fuel. And you have no ownership responsibilities, so that price includes hangar or tie down, insurance, annuals, and repairs as needed. Is that it?

I agree it is a very reasonable deal. The $200/month is likely to barely cover insurance and hangar/tie down. The $20/hour is very reasonable for engine use and annuals. Seems like you will have the advantages of ownership with few (if any) scheduling conflicts, for less than the cost of renting. It will depend on whether you will consistently fly enough, since the more hours you fly the less/hour this will cost you. At 2 hours/month it is still ok, but at 8 or 10/month it is a great deal. As opposed to renting, you get the use of the same plane all the time - which makes a lot of things easier.

If you do this, check into the insurance coverage to be sure it has adequate hull and liability limits, and that it covers you if you rent something away from home with limits you will be comfortable with. When you value this, you can offset the expenses by the cost of the renters insurance you will no longer need.
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
<SNIP> Your post is a little unclear. Here is what I think you mean:

You can fly as much as you want for $200/month, $20/hour use, and fuel. And you have no ownership responsibilities, so that price includes hangar or tie down, insurance, annuals, and repairs as needed. Is that it?
quote]

The $200/month fixed expense covers half the hanger ($140) and the added expense of putting me on the insurance (I figured about $720 for the year or $60/month).
I will have no financial obligation for annuals nor repairs as I will have no ownership.
The $20/hour goes into engine reserve (right now only about 200 hours SFRM).
In short, your assumptions are absolutely correct Dwight.
Click to expand...
 
GMascelli said:
Around here a 172R rents for 126, 172S for 133 and a PA28-161 for 115 ** plus fuel surcharges

The Archer II I fly is $350 for 4 hours wet, can carry over up to 10 hours a month, named on the owners Ins and right now we are down to two of us flying. Additional hours are $87. I had no security type deposit either, just a straight up monthly dues. Best part is fuel away from home is taken off dues or traded for time.

I would take 106 an hour it beats the rental rate and......not everyone and their mother is in and out of the aircraft beating the crap out of it.


GOOD LUCK !! Lets see some pics!
Click to expand...

The 172 SP rents for $122/hour wet.
One of the main advantages as i see it (aside from the calculated $ savings) is that, like you, there will only be 2 of us using the plane.
I'll get pics put up once it gets out of annual.
Thanks for the input.
 
Are you a high wing or a low wing guy? I ask because you compaired this to a C-172 rental. If you have not flown a Piper much you may want to look this over before you sign on for the deal: http://www.whittsflying.com/Page5.66Piper.htm
The Piper / Cessna differences can take some getting used to.
 
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Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
Are you a high wing or a low wing guy? I ask because you compaired this to a C-172 rental. If you have not flown a Piper much you may want to look this over before you sign on for the deal: http://www.whittsflying.com/Page5.66Piper.htm
The Piper / Cessna differences can take some getting used to.
Click to expand...

Dwight, I have about 120 hours in type. Switched about 1.5 years ago due to no low wings on the line :mad:
Appreciate the input.
 
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If my math is right, you get almost six hours of flying for the price you're currently paying for 4, and additional hours are only $56/hour, instead of $133/hr (incl. tax). You have some time in type so know you're comfortable in it. Presuming the bird is well mantained (it sounds as if it is), it's a no brainer. Only thing I might suggest is that you put that extra cost into a fund to buy it from him later down the road! If you bank $77/hour, that'll start a healthy reserve! I mean, the plane is owned by an A&P so, presuming he values his own skin, he takes care of any safety items, since he's flying it himself. You're familiar with the bird. Seems like a great deal to me!
 
kevin47881 said:
Wish I knew about that link 6 years ago :yes:
Click to expand...

I read over that link, and even as a former turbo Toga owner, I found it to be somewhat useless as far as accident percentages v causes, handling, etc.

Same thing can be said about your average Cessna 172 and 182 along with a number of Mooneys I've flown, plus a buttload of V-tail Bonana birds. Hell, as far as "Piper" goes, much of that can apply to their J3's and SuperCubs. . .

Reckon I've seen so much of that stuff in over 30 years of flying and owning that I've grown cynical. Nothing will tell you how an airplane is going to fly better than taking up someone who has a lot of hours in type with you for five to ten hours.

As far as the deal you mention, sounds like a sweetheart deal. Only question I'd have for you is "how much have you been budgeting to save per month for your own airplane purchase?"

In other words, how much will that $400 and change eat into your monthly allottments you're setting aside for an aircraft purchase? If you're renting (elsewhere) more than four hours a month, then this deal is already saving you money. But if you haven't been renting/flying very much, then will this deal set back your targeted purchase date/goal?

Just something to chew over before committing.

Regards.

-JD
 
CowboyPilot said:
<snip>
As far as the deal you mention, sounds like a sweetheart deal. Only question I'd have for you is "how much have you been budgeting to save per month for your own airplane purchase?"

In other words, how much will that $400 and change eat into your monthly allottments you're setting aside for an aircraft purchase? If you're renting (elsewhere) more than four hours a month, then this deal is already saving you money. But if you haven't been renting/flying very much, then will this deal set back your targeted purchase date/goal?

Just something to chew over before committing.

Regards.

-JD
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JD, right now I'm averaging about 5 hours/month primarily due to aircraft availability from the FBO. There are numerous months where I could have logged at least twice that if a plane was available.
The $400/month shouldn't affect (effect?) my put back for a purchase. We already have money set aside for the "right deal on the right plane".
Call me pessimistic but when a deal sounds too good to be true I tend to curl up into the fetal position :D
Appreciate the thought starters.
 
CowboyPilot said:
<snip>I read over that link, and even as a former turbo Toga owner, I found it to be somewhat useless as far as accident percentages v causes, handling, etc.

Same thing can be said about your average Cessna 172 and 182 along with a number of Mooneys I've flown, plus a buttload of V-tail Bonana birds. Hell, as far as "Piper" goes, much of that can apply to their J3's and SuperCubs. . .

Reckon I've seen so much of that stuff in over 30 years of flying and owning that I've grown cynical. Nothing will tell you how an airplane is going to fly better than taking up someone who has a lot of hours in type with you for five to ten hours.

-JD
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I wish I knew about the link due to some of the "advice" given relating to characteristics of the plane. I'm thinking if my CFII shared some of the knowledge in the article I'd have saved a few $ getting my ticket.
 
gprellwitz said:
I mean, the plane is owned by an A&P so, presuming he values his own skin, he takes care of any safety items, since he's flying it himself.
Click to expand...
Maybe. But perhaps you've heard the expression "the cobbler's children have no shoes."

Hard to say without knowing the guy.
 
kevin47881 said:
Proposed offer for Cherokee 180:
4 hours at $20/hour = $80
Fuel for 4 hours= $144
Fixed expenses = $200
Total for 4 hours = $424/month


Thanks in advance for your input.
Click to expand...

I'd be concerned with the maint at $20 hr. I realize the guy is an A&P, but even as cheap as you can get figuring your time isn't worth anything, that's really low. It's not a bad deal, but then, it isn't ownership either. All depends on what you're looking for.
 
Ken Ibold said:
While I like most of Witt's stuff, there is some crapola on that page.
Click to expand...

I agree, like lots of crapola. Here is one example in regard to the struts. He says 8" exposed. Piper says:

"2-34. SERVICING OLEO STRUTS: Air-oil struts are incorporated in each landing gear oleo to absorb the
shock resulting from the impact of the wheels on the runway during landing. To obtain proper oleo action, the
nose gear oleo strut must have approximately 3.25 ± .25 inches of piston tube exposed, while the main gear
struts require approximately 4.50 ± .50 inches of tube exposure."
 
Kevin if I'm reading this correctly you are saving money. The more you fly the less the fixed expenses are an hour. $20 per hour dry is pretty darn good. and the Cherokee 180 is a great plane.
 
Ken Ibold said:
While I like most of Witt's stuff, there is some crapola on that page.
Click to expand...
I agree you need to validate all advice. I found the site useful to identify some of the issues that need to be considered when someone wants to transitiion from Cessna to Piper. Some things I WAS NOT told when I did my first check out in a Piper.

As for the $20/hour maintenance, it is low but enough. If you figure $10/hour for OH you get $20,000 at a 2000 hour TBO. And an annual should average $1000 - so at $10/hour that is 100 hours use per year.
 
Henning said:
I'd be concerned with the maint at $20 hr. I realize the guy is an A&P, but even as cheap as you can get figuring your time isn't worth anything, that's really low. It's not a bad deal, but then, it isn't ownership either. All depends on what you're looking for.
Click to expand...

I know what you're saying, BUT. . .

I'm seeing a small, but somewhat growing segment in the non-towered airpatch community of old gray hairs (like myself) who enjoy the hell out of seeing the youngsters grow up and learn how to fly.

We know, firsthand, how ridiculous the costs of owning and purchasing have become and how huge of an obstacle it is to most.

And some of us really are nice guys.

Ie., my buying that 150 for my instructor friend and fixing it up while utilizing a lot of "sweat equity" from two prospective students who will now only have to pay fuel and insurance costs for their total PPL experience.

Recently, we found another great deal on a pearl inside of a damned butt-ugly oyster of a 152. Young guy right out of the service (Air Force, naturally:) ) saw the same potential in it that we did, but didn't have quite enough funds to get the plane where it needed to be maintenance and airworthiness-wise.

Enter our A&P/IA, who is also a neighbor at the airpatch. We negotiated a price with the original owner and made the deal. The new owner did all the elbow work (he was an a/c crew-chief on C-130s, so he knows a little about everything regarding airplanes) and dirty work, and is paying us back, interest-free, for our part in the deal while paying all other expenses including fuel, insurance, etc.

I don't have a "before" pic, but here is the "after" pic of this little gem I snapped while I was getting ready to get her back home. We'd just had the interior redone at this particular airport and a neighbor gave me a ride up to go pick the little bird up:

4g7l8j7.jpg


The joy we got watching this guy take his "maiden flight" and do a few trips around the pattern, then get out grinning was priceless. Seeing the same grin on his wife's face sealed the deal.

Sounds like Kevin may have an old A&P guy at his airport who is in that same mold. Wanna fly? Then let's fly, damnit and we'll find a way to make it affordable.

If this is the case and Kevin knows the guy fairly well, I'd jump on the deal.

Regards.

-JD
 
You're spot on as usual JD. Albeit the A&P isn't quite "crusty" yet. He just doens't want to part with the bird (hence the high asking price) but doesn't want it suffer from lot rot (hanger rash) either.
I've known the A&P, his wife and kids for about 7 years and they haven't lead me astray yet.
Thank you and all others who elected to offer their advice. It is much appreciated.
Also, JD, I applaud you and your A&P for helping keep dreams alive. If you're ever in middle TN, supper is on me!
 
I think I would jump on it as well. You say you want to own, this will give you an idea if you will really fly as much as you think you will. You are already paying for a rental, so as long as this is not costing you more than there you are financially ahead. You are already financially WAY ahead because you essentially have your own aircraft with no down payment, no surprise annual, no hunting for tie-down/hangar space, no hunting for a mechanic. If this deal turns out to be all the bad things some have said, you can simply walk away, and you have lost only a fraction of what you could have lost if you bought an airplane and it similarly went south.

If someone offered a similar deal for me around here, I would have already been in on it.
 
CowboyPilot said:
I know what you're saying, BUT. . .

I'm seeing a small, but somewhat growing segment in the non-towered airpatch community of old gray hairs (like myself) who enjoy the hell out of seeing the youngsters grow up and learn how to fly.

We know, firsthand, how ridiculous the costs of owning and purchasing have become and how huge of an obstacle it is to most.

And some of us really are nice guys.

Regards.

-JD
Click to expand...

Yeah, I see what you mean, and you're a heck of a nice guy for doing that. I had a 285 hp Navion that I got to fly for the price of fuel (sometimes not even that) so long as I flew it twice a week. The old guy didn't want it to sit plus he liked me flying with him. Good deals do happen and good guys are out there. I'd still be concerned though, but not so concerned to turn down the deal until there was too much "defered maintenance". If someone is subsidizing some of my flying cost to keep up their investment, no problem.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Maybe. But perhaps you've heard the expression "the cobbler's children have no shoes."

Hard to say without knowing the guy.
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Agreed that more info is needed, like how much he values his own skin! But that's why I noted that all-important presumption!

Edit: And I just saw Kevin's note about having known the A&P for seven years. That, and the rest of that post, speaks a lot right there.
 
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will do - as long as you're willing to share... Pilatus has a facility just up the road from here at KBJC
 
Here is a picture of the PA28-180 I finally have the keys to operate.
Thanks for all the input.


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Kevin,
CONGRATULATIONS! Have you taken her up yet with your new set of keys? Keep us informed about how this arrangement works out for you! (And if you forget, don't worry. Scott will resurrect the thread in a year or so :) Probably on Easter! :)
 
Nice looking Bird Kevin. I'll look forward to seeing the panel at the wings FlyBQ.
 
Kevin, the whole point is to have the keys to the plane in your pocket. As I always say, having the keys what you pay all the money for.

It looks like you pulled that off with quite a deal. Congratulations! :cheers:
 
gprellwitz said:
Kevin,
CONGRATULATIONS! Have you taken her up yet with your new set of keys? Keep us informed about how this arrangement works out for you! (And if you forget, don't worry. Scott will resurrect the thread in a year or so :) Probably on Easter! :)
Click to expand...

I've only put about 3.6 on her in the last 2 weeks (too dang cold and windy this weekend).
So far so good on the arrangement but I'll keep you posted.
 
AdamZ said:
Nice looking Bird Kevin. I'll look forward to seeing the panel at the wings FlyBQ.
Click to expand...

Thanks Adam. I'm definitely looking forward to the trip to Philly! Right now it looks like we'll launch Friday evening and spend the night somewhere around West Virginia.
 
mikea said:
Kevin, the whole point is to have the keys to the plane in your pocket. As I always say, having the keys what you pay all the money for.

It looks like you pulled that off with quite a deal. Congratulations! :cheers:
Click to expand...


Real.......planes.......don't........have........keys.:p
 
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