Today's lesson - MASTER OFF!

TangoWhiskey

TangoWhiskey

Touchdown! Greaser!
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3Green
Had a great flight today in the R182 (retract) working on my Commercial rating; today was simulated emergencies... I absolutely LOVE this instructor's scenario based training. Departing NW Regional (52F), he pulled my gear pump breaker about halfway through the retract cycle... I did good, recognized it but ignored it until out of the pattern (fly the plane first).

Then we went over to Decatur (KLUD) and practiced some simulated emergency landings. Departing Decatur, he had me do a best-rate climb to get above a thin scattered-broken 2000' ceiling; once on top, we simulated some prop over/under speed scenarios, then he said "I smell electrical smoke". We were outside the Bravo airspace and it's Mode C veil, so he had me actually (not simulated) follow the memory items/checklist: shut down the master and avionics buss, close off all the vents (air feeds fire), power off individual components in prep for isolated component power up. (First time I've ever REALLY powered down the electrical system in an airplane in flight).

As I started to do the power-up procedure, starting with Master ON, he said "Oops, I smell it again, and there's a little smoke." Master goes back off immediately, and stayed off. So here we were in a "dark" cockpit, above a broken layer. I selected a nearby airport (Bridgeport, KXBP), navigated to it via dead reckoning, and he let me use my portable radio (since I already had it out and stowed in the pilot's side pocket!) to monitor the AWOS/CTAF at the airport. Made a couple of traffic calls on it too, for local traffic's awareness.

Pumped the gear down manually, kicked the master on just momentarily to confirm gear down by the light (no sense making a simulated emergency into a real gear collapse). This aircraft has all of it's primary 1979 engine instruments replaced by a TSO'd JPI EDM 930, so I had no power/rpm/engine gauges, nor the Garmin 500 (aftermarket six-pack replacement, a kind of "mini-G1000". Found a large enough hole in the layer to do a steep spiral (commercial maneuver!) through the layer, then flew a pattern and did as gentle of a landing as possible (greased it on!) not "knowing" the state of the gear. Got power back after we rolled clear of the runway.

DANG! That was awesome fun, very cool, and good for confidence building. More instructors should do realistic scenario-based training like that.

Flying again on Saturday with him--Instrument Approaches / IPC.

Then we do a X/C Angel Flight together (my mission) to get a breast cancer patient home to Ft. Worth Spinks (from Riverside Municipal in Tulsa, OK) on Friday 4/13 (good thing I'm not suspicious!)... after that, we start the actual commercial maneuvers (chandelles, lazy 8's, etc.).

Fun stuff!
 
Sounds like a fun flight. Nice work!
 
I'd guess not as most CFI's I know like to get paid!
 
Oh and cool beans on you for Angel Flight. I'm doing my first event in April (don't qualify as a Command Pilot yet). We are having a meeting at Harris Ranch and I'm gonna park 50 planes! Super cool, it will also be my first flight in a Bonanza and my first time seeing a "private airport" super close to my house that I don't think is on any sectional and I've certainly never seen it from the air. I feel like I'm joining a secret club or something.... meet me at the private airport... LOL.
 
Of course not. I'd not suggest otherwise. However, how long did he fly that plane without paying though?

If I accept a service and don't pay what am I? Not calling names...just asking.
 
That sounds like a great flight, and a great read. Thanks for sharing.
 
If the Hobbs is as installed from Cessna it is independent of the master.

Modifications not withstanding.
 
Captain said:
Of course not. I'd not suggest otherwise. However, how long did he fly that plane without paying though?

If I accept a service and don't pay what am I? Not calling names...just asking.
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I figure I probably flew for about .4. I didn't even think about it not counting Hobbs time til mentioned in this thread, and have already emailed the CFI to ask about it. We logged 1.6 based on Hobbs, but we departed about 9:30 and landed about 11:30, so I figure it should have been about 2 hours. If I owe more, I'll pay up (they already have it on account anyway).

kimberlyanne546 said:
Ummm, I've met Troy in person. He is not a theif.
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Thanks, Kimberly!

SCCutler said:
I personally do not believe that the Hobbs was not running...
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Actually, Spike, the "Hobbs" (and they way they bill time in this aircraft) is not your traditional Hobbs. This particular R182 has had all primary engine instruments (and the Hobbs) replaced by a TSO JPI EDM 930, and the six pack replaced with a Garmin G500. As these are primary instruments, and certified as such, they are on the MASTER bus, not the Avionics bus. When Master power is off, they aren't on, and I don't think the Hobbs runs. The EDM930 manual doesn't specifically say. There must be a battery backup, as it retains and increments time, but with the MASTER off, I'm not sure that it would.

Here's what the display looks like on the 930:

HOBBS Times

EDM HOBBS: 127.4
Engine HOBBS: 120.6
Flight Hobbs: 1.6
Flight Duration: 01:36:14
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Oh, and I have an email into JPI support...
 
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You already said it, but in all honesty, I was about thirty seconds away from saying something like:

I know Troy. If he KNEW he was getting "free time" I'm sure he brought it up with the CFI. And you did.

In my training, my CFI would often "under charge" me - but NEVER less than Hobbs. If he did, I would always thank him via email in a way that said I knew what he did. But later, even when he was on the phone with OTHER students, he'd charge me for every second.... so it was only him being nice in the beginning since I was so clueless and our ground sessions lasted so long.
 
Now I get it. However the as a rental maybe the OEM Hobbs should go back?
 
Tanh wasn't running either, and most rentals do maintenance on tach because it ru s slower than a Hobbs.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Don't rentals base a lot of things (maintenance) on tach time? I'm sure the tach was running?
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This plane doesn't have a mechanical tach, either. The EDM 930 replaced all mechanical aircraft engine instrumentation. The "Engine HOBBS" value is the best approximation of Tach time (engine running), though I don't know if it's geared to RPM the same way a normal tach meter is.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
You already said it, but in all honesty, I was about thirty seconds away from saying something like:

I know Troy. If he KNEW he was getting "free time" I'm sure he brought it up with the CFI. And you did.

In my training, my CFI would often "under charge" me - but NEVER less than Hobbs. If he did, I would always thank him via email in a way that said I knew what he did. But later, even when he was on the phone with OTHER students, he'd charge me for every second.... so it was only him being nice in the beginning since I was so clueless and our ground sessions lasted so long.
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Ha. I actually had to push my CFI to charge me for 3 hours of ground last week. We didn't fly due to the winds, and he wanted to charge me only about half of the actual time he spent. Wouldn't let him do it. He's gotta eat, too.
 
Captain said:
If I accept a service and don't pay what am I?
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Grateful. Thankful. Appreciative.

It's only stealing if you did it with malicious and intentional motive. If it was given or offered, it's not.

Example: restaurant offers you free dessert. Are you stealing if you take it? :no:
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Oh, and I have an email into JPI support...
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That was fast. I asked about when the Hobbs runs, and what it takes to recycle the flight hobbs/durations values:

The EDM will only increment Hobbs when it is powered up. Cycling the power will reset the flight time.

Regards,

Ken Friedland
JPI Technical Support
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TangoWhiskey said:
Grateful. Thankful. Appreciative.

It's only stealing if you did it with malicious and intentional motive. If it was given or offered, it's not.
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Guess I'm grateful, thankful and appreciative! Here's what the CFI says:

I was thinking about that too. I can't change the bill time so our records for the commercial will always show 1.6. Looks like you got some free time! To make it all match I would log 1.6.
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TangoWhiskey said:
Grateful. Thankful. Appreciative.

It's only stealing if you did it with malicious and intentional motive. If it was given or offered, it's not.

Example: restaurant offers you free dessert. Are you stealing if you take it? :no:
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Depends.

If the 'owner' of something gives it to you then it's a gift and there's no problem. In your example, if the restaurant gives you a free dessert then you're fine. But if your buddy waiter gives it to you then maybe not.

Did the CFI own the plane? If so you're in good shape.
 
Troy,

Which instructor and/or flight school are you using at 52F? I'm thinking of "replacing" my current CFI-I instructor I'm using at KFWS... 52F is only about 25-30 miles from me...
 
S Joslin said:
Troy,

Which instructor and/or flight school are you using at 52F? I'm thinking of "replacing" my current CFI-I instructor I'm using at KFWS... 52F is only about 25-30 miles from me...
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I'm using MarcAir at 52F. www.marcairaviation.com

Another pilot on this board recently transitioned over there too; look for AggieMike's updates.
 
Captain said:
Depends.

If the 'owner' of something gives it to you then it's a gift and there's no problem. In your example, if the restaurant gives you a free dessert then you're fine. But if your buddy waiter gives it to you then maybe not.

Did the CFI own the plane? If so you're in good shape.
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Depending on the billing structure even the owner of the thing isn't out anything as no "time" was put on the plane. :wink2: maybe just fuel if rented wet or with a flat fuel burn rate.
 
Skylane81E said:
If the Hobbs is as installed from Cessna it is independent of the master.

Modifications not withstanding.
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Must have been modified, but the Hobbs on a C-172H the club used to have ran the second you turned on the master. I had them fix that. I hate getting charged to pre-flight the plane.
 
Captain said:
Depends.

If the 'owner' of something gives it to you then it's a gift and there's no problem. In your example, if the restaurant gives you a free dessert then you're fine. But if your buddy waiter gives it to you then maybe not.

Did the CFI own the plane? If so you're in good shape.
Click to expand...

S Joslin said:
Troy,

Which instructor and/or flight school are you using at 52F? I'm thinking of "replacing" my current CFI-I instructor I'm using at KFWS... 52F is only about 25-30 miles from me...
Click to expand...

Just put it down as marketing.
 
Sound's like your instructor is very thorough. But a comment, if I may...ever since that Swissair flight went from JFK to JFK junior, there has been a slight revision to the way one might handle a smoke in the cabin/cockpit scenario: It used to be, when cabin or electrical fumes were noticed, we did all those things you and your instructor simulated. Since that fateful MD-11 flight, greater emphasis is now placed on getting the airplane on the ground - as quickly as possible; rather than, say, trouble shooting the shorted electrical bus or component. So, secure the electrics, (maybe tell ATC first) try to get rid of the fumes/smoke and land as soon as possible - even on a road. I admit that in a 182RG that might be overkill. Oops, sorry, poor choice of words.
 
Call me crazy but there is no way in hell I'd land in a retract with the gear indication system powered down by choice - especially in a Cessna retract.
 
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jesse said:
Call me crazy but there is no way in hell I'd land in a retract with the gear indication system powered down by choice - especially in a Cessna retract.
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You might have missed the part where I said we turned the master back on momentarily, after pumping down the gear, to verify we had a green down-and-locked indication.
 
j1b3h0 said:
Sound's like your instructor is very thorough. But a comment, if I may...ever since that Swissair flight went from JFK to JFK junior, there has been a slight revision to the way one might handle a smoke in the cabin/cockpit scenario: It used to be, when cabin or electrical fumes were noticed, we did all those things you and your instructor simulated. Since that fateful MD-11 flight, greater emphasis is now placed on getting the airplane on the ground - as quickly as possible; rather than, say, trouble shooting the shorted electrical bus or component. So, secure the electrics, (maybe tell ATC first) try to get rid of the fumes/smoke and land as soon as possible - even on a road. I admit that in a 182RG that might be overkill. Oops, sorry, poor choice of words.
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Agreed; if I had an electrical problem, especially smoke/fire/burning smells that didn't dissipate / clear immediately, I'd be putting it on the ground NOW. If the smell went away and the burning stopped, and I was within reasonable distance of an airport where service could be performed, I'd consider going there, all the while keeping off-airport landing locations in mind in case that plan needed to change. In this training scenario, getting the gear pumped down, diverting without navigation equipment, making a no-flap landing and NORDO ops were the focus.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Agreed; if I had an electrical problem, especially smoke/fire/burning smells that didn't dissipate / clear immediately, I'd be putting it on the ground NOW. If the smell went away and the burning stopped, and I was within reasonable distance of an airport where service could be performed, I'd consider going there, all the while keeping off-airport landing locations in mind in case that plan needed to change. In this training scenario, getting the gear pumped down, diverting without navigation equipment, making a no-flap landing and NORDO ops were the focus.
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This is now reminding me of what happened to David.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I'm using MarcAir at 52F. www.marcairaviation.com

Another pilot on this board recently transitioned over there too; look for AggieMike's updates.
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Just for that... I finked on you to GB... He just grinned and said "Cool!"

When I arrived today, came across another displaced USAG renter.

Earlier this week we did my first turf landings. That was really cool. It's nice to have acess to an FBO that permits their renters turf ops once you demonstrate your proficiency.

Night landings at 52F are interesting.
 
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AggieMike88 said:
Just for that... I finked on you to GB... He just grinned and said "Cool!"
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:) I'm sure he hates referrals. It's nice to find a guy teaching because he loves to teach and plans to continue doing so versus leaving for the majors.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Just for that... I finked on you to GB... He just grinned and said "Cool!"

When I arrived today, came across another displaced USAG renter.

Earlier this week we did my first turf landings. That was really cool. It's nice to have acess to an FBO that permits their renters turf ops once you demonstrate your proficiency.

Night landings at 52F are interesting.
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Where did you do the grass landings?

As far as night landings at 52F... More you know what I meant by black hole approach... And being to such a narrow non-standard runway, it's interesting to say the least.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Where did you do the grass landings?

As far as night landings at 52F... More you know what I meant by black hole approach... And being to such a narrow non-standard runway, it's interesting to say the least.
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T76 for the grass. Since MarcAir is one of the few who very willing to teach and permit turf ops, I told GB they need to come up with a t-shirt that commemorates the pilot's first grass landing.... A company T-shirt that now has real grass stains.

"black hole" is an apt description. And the position of the edge lights are going to really catch someone not familiar with the arrangement.

Narrow runway is interesting, especially the speed illusion compared to the long and wide at places like KAFW. There, things look just right. On the narrow at 52F, I feel like I'm jumping to light speed in the Millenium Falcon.

Oh, and what belongs to that big tail jutting out of the hangar near taxiway Charlie? And is the DC-3 behind the diner operable?
 
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