To LSA or not to LSA?

idahoflier

idahoflier

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Messages
1,609
Display Name
Display name:
idahoflier
TLDR: Maintenance shop is closing and my concern of long wait times for maintenance has me thinking it’s time to go ELSA. Thoughts?

Sometimes GA feels like a battle and in this case a losing battle. I recently learned that the shop I have been using since becoming an aircraft owner is going to be no more. The owner is reaching retirement and a business sale/transition to the employees couldn’t be reached.

The owner is now in negotiations with other individuals to buy the business but my understanding is that they aren’t mechanics. So, if I sale is agreed to at best 2/3 of the mechanics will be gone and potentially all of the mechanics will be gone. It’s looking more likely to me that the business will just wind up. It’s a sad situation because they’re all great folks.

From a selfish perspective I’m disappointed because they all were diligent and did great work as well as knowing my aircraft. I think this will have a huge impact on the field as there are only two shops left. I’m pretty sure this will translate into long wait times for any maintenance.

I love my Skyhawk because it’s so versatile. It’s been a great aircraft for me but I feel like I’m in a Sword of Damocles situation now. What’s going to happen that grounds my aircraft for a lengthy duration while I wait for a maintenance window?

So, I’m thinking of selling the Skyhawk. Life events and situation have put me in a place where approximately 95% of my flying is solo. I don’t see myself flying IFR in the future. So, I think it’s time for an ELSA. I’m leaning ELSA because so far I haven’t found a lot of mechanics in the area that perform condition inspections and I know I can take a weekend class and apply for a repairman certificate for an owned ELSA after completion.

I know others have made the transition to LSA, any regrets?
 
I can't speak from the perspective of owning an aircraft. But I'll ask the question - is it just maintenance, or are you also flying less? Because if it's less, then perhaps switching from owning to some kind of club or shared ownership of multiple aircraft could work. In that there's less impact individually, cost or time, in having one aircraft down for maintenance. Again, just tossing it out as an idea.
 
Are you looking to cash out at the 172 peak and downsize? Would a partner in the plane help you?

If your concern is maintenance availability, 172 seems easier to get worked on than a low-volume LSA.
 
Albany Tom said:
I can't speak from the perspective of owning an aircraft. But I'll ask the question - is it just maintenance, or are you also flying less? Because if it's less, then perhaps switching from owning to some kind of club or shared ownership of multiple aircraft could work. In that there's less impact individually, cost or time, in having one aircraft down for maintenance. Again, just tossing it out as an idea.
Click to expand...

I appreciate the thought. While I haven't flown as much the last couple of years I'm still averaging ~ 65+ hrs. a year. My free time and ability to go flying should open up considerably in a year so I expect to be back to ~ 100+ hours a year then. I was in clubs for 25 years prior to becoming an owner and I know that's not something I want to go back to...
 
Where’s the nearest shop to your airfield that you trust to work on the plane when this one closes?
 
While the weekend allows you do the Annual on your ELSA, I would suggest you take the 80-120 Hour Course as a learning experience. It would also allow you to do maintenance on any ELSA or SLSA for pay. And given sufficient experience, you could later apply for an A&P certificate. Not affiliated with Rainbow Aviation but they do have a good rep.

https://rainbowaviation.com/?p=3198

Cheers
 
FancyG said:
Are you looking to cash out at the 172 peak and downsize? Would a partner in the plane help you?

If your concern is maintenance availability, 172 seems easier to get worked on than a low-volume LSA.
Click to expand...

Nope, not a financial consideration, strictly the availability of maintenance. As mentioned above I would go ELSA then I can take a weekend course and do the maintenance and condition inspection myself. Eventually I'll build something but that's at least 8-10 years away...
 
Cluemeister said:
Where’s the nearest shop to your airfield that you trust to work on the plane when this one closes?
Click to expand...

There are two other on the field. The concern is lead/wait times. I have only had a couple of "pop up" maintenance needs, but in each case it took two weeks so my concern is that that could translate into a month or more now...
 
X3 Skier said:
While the weekend allows you do the Annual on your ELSA, I would suggest you take the 80-120 Hour Course as a learning experience. It would also allow you to do maintenance on any ELSA or SLSA for pay. And given sufficient experience, you could later apply for an A&P certificate. Not affiliated with Rainbow Aviation but they do have a good rep.

https://rainbowaviation.com/?p=3198

Cheers
Click to expand...

Yep, I have been looking at this for a few years now. Unfortunately right now I can't get away for the required two weeks . I can manage a weekend. While I believe I'm reasonably mechanically inclined and I currently perform as much owner maintenance allowed, I do recognize I lack knowledge AND experience. There are A&P's around of course and I think I could probably hire them for "consultations". It's just a desert when trying to find someone willing to sign off a condition inspection...
 
Last edited:
I can't answer the question for you but I have built and maintain my experimental which is light sport compliant. I fly with a Light Sport Certificate with a driver's license medical.

I seriously considered a PPL and a certified plane as my health is good and I could go faster than 120 knots. But the beauty in the simplicity of not having to deal with the headaches involved with the FAA medical and the hassles of maintenance with a certified plane (cost and availability of parts, trusting an A&P, wait times, etc.) have made my adventure in aviation an excellent experience. So while my plane is faster than a Cessna 150, 172, Piper trainers & such, and runs along with my friends Commander 112A, I'm not as fast as some of the others. But I'll trade a bit of speed for a lot of freedom.

Just my two bits ...
 
I flew light sport for a couple of years before PPL. In terms of fun, it was actually more. The only downside for me was that sometimes it was too windy to take up a cub, where I could've flown a PA-28. But really, if it's too windy for a cub it's not all that fun in a cherokee, except maybe for the landing practice...if you like that sort of thing.

While it might be harder to find LSA parts or mechanics, I think there's less maintenance for LSA. They're either old enough to not have anywhere near as many parts or electronics, or they're new enough that I'd think they'd have fewer problems. Maybe the exception is with a liquid cooled engine, and that's just a guess.

Oh and as I read what I just wrote...in both cases I was flying certified (certificated?) aircraft. So the cub/champ still requires an A&P. I've not flown experimental LS.
 
Go out and fly a few LSA airplanes before committing. Then get your maintenance course out of the way. Then go fly. LSA airplanes are a lot of fun.
 
frfly172 said:
Go out and fly a few LSA airplanes before committing. Then get your maintenance course out of the way. Then go fly. LSA airplanes are a lot of fun.
Click to expand...

I have taken both aircraft I'm considering for a spin, CH750 and an RV-12. I'm really not liking how slow the CH750 is, but I don't see the RV-12 fairing well on backcountry strips. Not too concerned about the maintenance course, I should have around a year to complete it. I will most likely have the ELSA a while before selling the Skyhawk...
 
Clip4 said:
You will be sorry you made such a stupid decision. LSA sucks.
Click to expand...

If I was making a lot of IFR cross country trips, then yeah, it would suck. But the vast majority of my flying is daytime vfr boring holes < 200nm from home. No more maintenance worries. No more medical worries. Regular unleaded mogas so no more fuel worries.
 
Personally, moving to an E-LSA where I can do the vast majority of the maintenance, modify or substitute parts and do my own annual condition inspections has totally changed the aircraft ownership experience for the better. The one word to best describe it for me would be "liberating".

Most of my flying is local and fair weather recreational, so 5 or 6 gph of 91+ mogas drastically reduces fuel costs. Cross countries take a while at 95 kts or so, but in retirement I'm just not in all that big of a hurry. I suppose if I was I could rent, but haven't needed to do that in well over a decade.

Works for me, but everyone's situation is different.
 
FastEddieB said:
...Most of my flying is local and fair weather recreational, so 5 or 6 gph of 91+ mogas drastically reduces fuel costs. Cross countries take a while at 95 kts or so, but in retirement I'm just not in all that big of a hurry. I suppose if I was I could rent, but haven't needed to do that in well over a decade....
Click to expand...
Are you able to find alcohol-free mogas, or have you just found ways of dealing with the alcohol issues?
 
Last edited:
Palmpilot said:
[QUOTE="FastEddieB, post: 3274896, member: 17142"...]Most of my flying is local and fair weather recreational, so 5 or 6 gph of 91+ mogas drastically reduces fuel costs. Cross countries take a while at 95 kts or so, but in retirement I'm just not in all that big of a hurry. I suppose if I was I could rent, but haven't needed to do that in well over a decade....
Click to expand...
Are you able to find alcohol-free mogas, or have you just found ways of dealing with the alcohol issues?[/QUOTE]

Like transporting mogas and refueling from the back of a truck is safe and fun.
 
Palmpilot said:
[QUOTE="FastEddieB, post: 3274896, member: 17142"...]Most of my flying is local and fair weather recreational, so 5 or 6 gph of 91+ mogas drastically reduces fuel costs. Cross countries take a while at 95 kts or so, but in retirement I'm just not in all that big of a hurry. I suppose if I was I could rent, but haven't needed to do that in well over a decade....
Click to expand...
Are you able to find alcohol-free mogas, or have you just found ways of dealing with the alcohol issues?[/QUOTE]

"In addition to AVGAS and unleaded automotive fuel (Mogas) the ROTAX, 912/914 series of engines are now approved for use with E10. Fuels that contain more than 10 %ethanol blend have not been tested nor are they permitted for use."

The issue then becomes tanks/tubes/rubber handling ethanol. Also, storing mogas for long periods is problematical.

I flew Tecnam Eaglets that had no problem with Mogas.
 
mcdewey said:
I dunno. I've flown Tecnam Eaglet, CTLS, Tecnam Sierra, Remos GX, and RV-12. All sipped gas. They were all a hoot to fly, especially the Sierra and the RV-12.
Click to expand...

"Some would complain if they were hung with a new rope."
 
Clip4 said:
Like transporting mogas and refueling from the back of a truck is safe and fun.
Click to expand...
Really not an issue. We use 5 gallon cans filled at the gas station less than a mile away from the hangar. It almost never takes more than 3 to fill the tank, since the tank is only 20 gallons. That station happens to sell alcohol free 91 octane, but theengine and fuel system are perfectly capable of handling E10 as well. It's no more of a hassle than using the self serve pump at the FBO, really, and it's currently about $3 per gallon cheaper. We're also able to change oil and filters every 100 hours and the $3 spark plugs every 200.

A person can look for excuses to make anything at all seem like too much trouble, or they can just do it.
 
@FastEddieB and others - were you mechanics / tradesmen or just mechanical in your real life?

Experimental offers so much for the $$, but I am not mechanical. I've gotten, probably a false, sense of security from the certification and A& P process. "Assuming" the folks that assembled and now maintain the planes are highly trained.

I'm curious about the folks that maintain their own. I assume they had skills or wouldn't have gone that route. I'm a worrier though . . . I assume (there's that word again) there is some reason you need the $18 spark plug vs the $3 plug. But. . . I don't know (that's what drives me crazy!).
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@FastEddieB and others - were you mechanics / tradesmen or just mechanical in your real life?
Click to expand...
Mechanical / control systems engineer by education.
I have worked on bicycles, lawn mowers, cars, boats, construction equipment, appliances, machine tools, (water jets are maintenance hogs, FWIW...), robots, airplanes and who the heck knows what else starting at about age 14 (well, younger for bicycles).
Plus, I have the manuals for my airplane, engine, wheels, brakes, fabric, etc.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
It's only an issue for those of you unfortunate enough to be stuck with "legacy" engines and fuel system components.
Click to expand...
The problem I had when I was renting a 912-powered LSA whose owner was putting ethanol-containing mogas in it was that water would dissolve in the alcohol and then when there was a temperature change it would come out of solution at inopportune times.
 
idahoflier said:
If I was making a lot of IFR cross country trips, then yeah, it would suck. But the vast majority of my flying is daytime vfr boring holes < 200nm from home. No more maintenance worries. No more medical worries. Regular unleaded mogas so no more fuel worries.
Click to expand...
I don’t agree with clip, but it’s kinda funny that you think “no more maintenance worries” when the reality is you will have more maintenance worries. I want an experimental also, but it’s trading one set of worries for another potentially bigger set of worries.
 
Salty said:
I don’t agree with clip, but it’s kinda funny that you think “no more maintenance worries” when the reality is you will have more maintenance worries. I want an experimental also, but it’s trading one set of worries for another potentially bigger set of worries.
Click to expand...

The "no more maintenance worries" is in the context of my original post. Since I will be performing the maintenance I won't have to rely on getting on the schedule of a busy shop and have an aircraft grounded until someone has time to work on it. From what I have seen the LSA/ELSA's I'm looking at aren't very complex airframes so I'm not too concerned I'll get in over my head. I could be wrong, but if I need it, I suspect there will be some experienced help available as long as it's my signature going in the logbook...
 
idahoflier said:
The "no more maintenance worries" is in the context of my original post. Since I will be performing the maintenance I won't have to rely on getting on the schedule of a busy shop and have an aircraft grounded until someone has time to work on it. From what I have seen the LSA/ELSA's I'm looking at aren't very complex airframes so I'm not too concerned I'll get in over my head. I could be wrong, but if I need it, I suspect there will be some experienced help available as long as it's my signature going in the logbook...
Click to expand...
I totally understand what you are saying. But don't trivialize the process of troubleshooting, sourcing and purchasing appropriate parts, complex repairs. As I said, you're simply trading one problem for another. No paying someone to work on the plane during the week so it's ready to fly on the weekend - instead you're working on the plane every weekend for months without being able to fly....

It's definitely nice to have an experimental, but as someone that does most of the work on my certified aircraft (with close support from my IA) I can tell you there are times when I'm more than happy to pay someone to make it happen.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@FastEddieB and others - were you mechanics / tradesmen or just mechanical in your real life?

Experimental offers so much for the $$, but I am not mechanical. I've gotten, probably a false, sense of security from the certification and A& P process. "Assuming" the folks that assembled and now maintain the planes are highly trained.

I'm curious about the folks that maintain their own. I assume they had skills or wouldn't have gone that route. I'm a worrier though . . . I assume (there's that word again) there is some reason you need the $18 spark plug vs the $3 plug. But. . . I don't know (that's what drives me crazy!).
Click to expand...

nothing to say you have to do your own maintenance. Can still take it to the shop and have an a&p work on it when needed.
 
Palmpilot said:
The problem I had when I was renting a 912-powered LSA whose owner was putting ethanol-containing mogas in it was that water would dissolve in the alcohol and then when there was a temperature change it would come out of solution at inopportune times.
Click to expand...
Huh. Never had that happen - cars or airplane.

idahoflier said:
I won't have to rely on getting on the schedule of a busy shop and have an aircraft grounded until someone has time to work on it
Click to expand...
heh heh heh. I find that I have to rely on gaps in the schedule of the honey do list... :)
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@FastEddieB and others - were you mechanics / tradesmen or just mechanical in your real life?

Experimental offers so much for the $$, but I am not mechanical. I've gotten, probably a false, sense of security from the certification and A& P process. "Assuming" the folks that assembled and now maintain the planes are highly trained.

I'm curious about the folks that maintain their own. I assume they had skills or wouldn't have gone that route...
Click to expand...

I'm an engineer (aerospace/mechanical), but I've been building and fixing things since I was a kid, it's why I'm an engineer, not because. Machines, any machines, just make intuitive sense to me, and airplanes are very simple machines.

Salty said:
I don’t agree with clip, but it’s kinda funny that you think “no more maintenance worries” when the reality is you will have more maintenance worries. I want an experimental also, but it’s trading one set of worries for another potentially bigger set of worries.
Click to expand...

Not really. If find a problem during preflight I can often fix it myself and still go flying instead of finding an A&P on a Sunday afternoon. In many cases I can get the parts to [legally!] fix my plane at the local auto parts store 10 minutes away. And because I fly and maintain the plane, I'm more in tune with it which makes troubleshooting or repairing more efficient.
 
Salty said:
I totally understand what you are saying. But don't trivialize the process of troubleshooting, sourcing and purchasing appropriate parts, complex repairs. As I said, you're simply trading one problem for another. No paying someone to work on the plane during the week so it's ready to fly on the weekend - instead you're working on the plane every weekend for months without being able to fly....

It's definitely nice to have an experimental, but as someone that does most of the work on my certified aircraft (with close support from my IA) I can tell you there are times when I'm more than happy to pay someone to make it happen.
Click to expand...

I understand your perspective as well, but I think you need to narrow it down to what I'm looking at, a CH750 or an RV-12. Both aircraft are pretty basic. They're also in production so sourcing parts isn't a huge concern (unless I'm missing something). If I was looking and something like a Lancair or an RV-10 ;-) then maintenance may become a burden. And, yeah, I still work full time so a larger maintenance issue may eat up my free time. But I still think I would be able to find an A&P willing to work on my ELSA if I'm signing the logbook. I definitely could be wrong!
 
DaleB said:
Really not an issue. We use 5 gallon cans filled at the gas station less than a mile away from the hangar. It almost never takes more than 3 to fill the tank, since the tank is only 20 gallons. That station happens to sell alcohol free 91 octane, but theengine and fuel system are perfectly capable of handling E10 as well. It's no more of a hassle than using the self serve pump at the FBO, really, and it's currently about $3 per gallon cheaper. We're also able to change oil and filters every 100 hours and the $3 spark plugs every 200.

A person can look for excuses to make anything at all seem like too much trouble, or they can just do it.
Click to expand...

A friend bought a nice setup from a flight school that was using Mogas until they were told they had to buy fuel from the field and couldn't bring in their own fuel. It's quite nice with an electric pump motor driven by a deep cycle 12V marine battery. Works just like any other pump. Turn it on and use the nozzle to fill the tank. Pumps five gallons in what seems like less than a minute. Have to recharge the battery overnight every few months.

I agree that some folks can find the silliest reasons to be negative ...
 
Daleandee said:
A friend bought a nice setup from a flight school that was using Mogas until they were told they had to buy fuel from the field and couldn't bring in their own fuel. It's quite nice with an electric pump motor driven by a deep cycle 12V marine battery. Works just like any other pump. Turn it on and use the nozzle to fill the tank. Pumps five gallons in what seems like less than a minute. Have to recharge the battery overnight every few months.

I agree that some folks can find the silliest reasons to be negative ...
Click to expand...
I’m not being negative. I’m being realistic. It’s not realistic to ignore the reality that doing your own wrenching takes up free time. I’m all for the experimental route. But personally, I’d have a mechanic available to help out even in that case.
 
Salty said:
I’m not being negative. I’m being realistic. It’s not realistic to ignore the reality that doing your own wrenching takes up free time. I’m all for the experimental route. But personally, I’d have a mechanic available to help out even in that case.
Click to expand...


FWIW ... none of my comments were in reference to anything you have said.

As to your point I think it is a good one because doing your own maintenance does take time. The advantage for me is money & time saved as I don't have to buy overpriced certified parts and wait in line for a mechanic to do the work. I also know that the work was done and that it was done correctly.

My plane that I built with the experimental engine installed is fairly new and I know all of it inside and out. Parts are readily available and I have the tools and training to do anything on the plane that is required. I have a set of plans and can make any part of the plane except the main wing spar caps and the canopy.

As the mechanic in charge I don't hesitate to fix anything that becomes questionable as I do ongoing maintenance throughout the year. I've known pilots that delayed maintenance items as they either were close to inspection time, or could not find a mechanic available. I have and use the expertise of folks with much more training than I ... sometimes when needed and other times just for another set of eyes.

The beauty is the freedom that comes with experimental airplanes ... and the certified world gains too because many of the new things that come to the certified world were discovered and refined in the experimental realm. Is it a perfect world ... nah, but it's close! ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top