To go glass or not..that is the question?

jonrood

jonrood

Filing Flight Plan
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jonrood
I recently settled on and bought a 2000 T206H with 730 tt. I have put 60 hrs. on the plane and I love it. Changed the oil twice, both sampled perfect so I think I got a good one. I am thinking about upgrading the kln94b to a GTN750. I would also like to add 800 active traffic. This will cost about $31k.

So here is my dilemma... I have the funds available to upgrade to 2008ish glass with was and gfc700 for about $200k more.

I am a 400 hr. private who wants to start on my ifr. If you were me, what would you do and why?? I am just looking for insight I haven't thought of...

Jon
 
I think on the 2000 206 that you will lose about half what you put in it in avionics or more. The 2008 with g1000 you will lose bunch in depreciation. All things being equal the gfc 700 can't be beat by any autopilot that I have used. The g1000 has about everything you could ever want at this time for avionics. Both planes are going to get you there at about the same time. I personally would love the 2008 and if you can write it off that's a good way to go. I love the 200 series.
 
Theboys said:
I think on the 2000 206 that you will lose about half what you put in it in avionics or more. The 2008 with g1000 you will lose bunch in depreciation. All things being equal the gfc 700 can't be beat by any autopilot that I have used. The g1000 has about everything you could ever want at this time for avionics. Both planes are going to get you there at about the same time. I personally would love the 2008 and if you can write it off that's a good way to go. I love the 200 series.
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I guess you are touching on some of my concerns. Money in the bank/market isn't doing anything. I know you don't have a crystal ball, but consider keeping and flying both 600 hrs. over next 5 yrs. (kids leave and me and momma get a faster plane) which one depreciates more???

2000 going from 790 to 1400? $300k plane
2008 going from 800 to 1400? $500k plane
 
As someone who flies a G1000 Cessna 172, it's great but the flying is only slightly more fun than without it. However, if you're confident that you'll be behind glass doing IFR at some point in the next 10 years then buy it and do your IFR training in it. It does make the IFR a lot easier IMO.
 
You're never going to see that money again after you sink it into that panel, this sounds like spending money for the sake of spending money to me.


Honestly you'd be better off selling your heavy new 206 for a U206, with a IO550, extensions, door STC, and aspen glass, custom interior and paint, etc.


For IFR it isn't going to be a difference, if you're WAAS with a EHSI, it's all gravy.
 
I enjoy the T206H with G1000 and the GFC700, it's fun and capable to go really anywhere. Now, as to if it's worth an upgrade I don't really know. If you push weight to the limit you're going to lose a bit going to the G1000 from the round dial, you've already taken the hit for the turbo so no additional loss there.

Personally though, I think I'd stick with the round dial through the IFR though(of course, you can do that in a week or two if you want), it's going to be a much bigger pain in the ass that way(if you can, maybe install an ADF... :) ) The G1000 is great for IFR, but I feel my scan slipping with all the automation, and simulating failures is a bit annoying. Now, if you're only ever going to fly glass then maybe this isn't much of an issue, but if you expect to fly anything else then learning on the steam gauges seems to transfer better than the other way around.
 
The 300g will be worth say 250 in five years, maybe little less. Thinking people who are looking for 206 in five years are going to be looking more for the g1000 for choice. So say it will be worth 375. That would be loss of 80 for the 2000 and 125 for the 2008. But the 2000 will be 20 years old versus 12. The 206 is the kind of plane that you always will want to keep in your hanger once you own one. As far as ifr, it's much more comfortable with the g1000 and synthetic vision. Nice to see the runway ahead of you on the screen when all you see out window during descent are clouds. I have a 205( like a 206p) and a malibu both with the Aspen and sv. I like the glass myself. Everyone says after you get your ifr rating you should file ifr almost every time you fly to get comfortable. If you feel safer, well how much is that worth.
 
The GFC-700 is a very nice autopilot, I really like the constant airspeed climb, and the G-1000 display is superior to the G-500 and having the rest of the integration is nice as well. The Flightstream interconnect will allow you a GTN flight plan interface.

The upgrade costs on your current plane, especially if you also go G-500, will pay back very little on sale, so you will have to fly off the investment for at least 10 years to make it work out. You can upgrade to full SVT glass capability (including the engine box) and get the superior 750 box for half the price of the upgrade to the G-1000 206, however on resale if within the depreciation cycle of the avionics, you will have a better retained value from the factory G-1000, plus you get the better autopilot.
 
$200K to upgrade to glass? Don't you mean $20K?
I like glass, but no way I'd pay $20K to get it -- it won't make the airplane fly any better.
 
Paul Hamilton said:
$200K to upgrade to glass? Don't you mean $20K?
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I gather he meant that $200K was the cost of selling his current 206 and buying a newer one with the G1000 in it... You can't retrofit the G1000/GFC700 on any piston planes that I know of.

OP: Why active traffic? To me, that's a waste at this point, with ADS-B practically just around the corner. Spend the money on equipping your own plane with ADS-B In and Out and the only traffic you'll be missing that you'd have had with active traffic is non-ADS-B Out equipped aircraft that are outside of radar coverage.

Glass: Well, it's only money, right? I really like the G1000, but unless you're only ever going to fly instruments on glass, I would get your IR on the steam gauges first. It is WAY easier to transition to the glass from steam (like, an hour if you're comfortable with a G430 or 530) than it is to go the other direction.
 
You are describing exactly what finally pushed me from certified to experimental aircraft. When I found out that it would cost $50,000 to put a modern instrument panel in my Pathfinder -- a plane worth only $60,000 -- I knew it was time.

In the end, I put a MORE modern glass panel in my RV-8, for about $12,000.
 
I have no crystal ball, but the airplanes that are selling and holding there value right now are Cessnas with G-1000 and more so the ones with GFC-700 and WAAS. If you want glass and the upgrade is affordable, buy what you want and be happy. :D People love to tell you that glass is not worth it, blah, blah, blah......I installed a G-600, GTN 650/750, with remote audio and transponders and I LOVE IT! :yes: You could probably put a G-500 with a GTN 750 in for $40-50K with traffic. I'd likely spend the additional for the G-1000 airplane since it's newer and has a more capable autopilot. :D
We only go around once, we might as well do what makes us happy. :D

jonrood said:
I recently settled on and bought a 2000 T206H with 730 tt. I have put 60 hrs. on the plane and I love it. Changed the oil twice, both sampled perfect so I think I got a good one. I am thinking about upgrading the kln94b to a GTN750. I would also like to add 800 active traffic. This will cost about $31k.

So here is my dilemma... I have the funds available to upgrade to 2008ish glass with was and gfc700 for about $200k more.

I am a 400 hr. private who wants to start on my ifr. If you were me, what would you do and why?? I am just looking for insight I haven't thought of...

Jon
Click to expand...
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I gather he meant that $200K was the cost of selling his current 206 and buying a newer one with the G1000 in it... You can't retrofit the G1000/GFC700 on any piston planes that I know of.

OP: Why active traffic? To me, that's a waste at this point, with ADS-B practically just around the corner. Spend the money on equipping your own plane with ADS-B In and Out and the only traffic you'll be missing that you'd have had with active traffic is non-ADS-B Out equipped aircraft that are outside of radar coverage.

Glass: Well, it's only money, right? I really like the G1000, but unless you're only ever going to fly instruments on glass, I would get your IR on the steam gauges first. It is WAY easier to transition to the glass from steam (like, an hour if you're comfortable with a G430 or 530) than it is to go the other direction.
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But he didn't say G1000, he said "upgrade to to 2008ish glass" - not clear what that means nor why it should cost $200k. Please clarify this $200k 'upgrade' that exceeds the cost of most late-model used airplanes.

I get the GTN 750 but no clue why you'd do active traffic instead of ADS-B in/out. Do you fly where there are a lot of transponderless aircraft?

If you want glass, why not G500? It's waaaaay less than $200k fo sho.

OP reads like someone with lots of money who gives not two sh**s about return on investment but it's not clear.
 
I read it as he can trade airplanes for $200K, not do $200K worth of avionics work. :D Basically trade his older steam gauge airplane for a 2008 model with G-1000.

petrolero said:
But he didn't say G1000, he said "upgrade to to 2008ish glass" - not clear what that means nor why it should cost $200k. Please clarify this $200k 'upgrade' that exceeds the cost of most late-model used airplanes.

I get the GTN 750 but no clue why you'd do active traffic instead of ADS-B in/out. Do you fly where there are a lot of transponderless aircraft?

If you want glass, why not G500? It's waaaaay less than $200k fo sho.

OP reads like someone with lots of money who gives not two sh**s about return on investment but it's not clear.
Click to expand...
 
Same way I read it. Don't think you can buy a 2008 with gfc 700 that doesn't have g1000. I started with a old 172 that was a great plane. For what I wanted to do it wasn't very good fit. Went to a columbia. Had a few years, Better fit but still half dozen things it wouldn't do I wanted. So I went to a malibu. Does all I want. Figure I can't fly forever. I'm gonna enjoy it while I can.
 
petrolero said:
But he didn't say G1000, he said "upgrade to to 2008ish glass" - not clear what that means nor why it should cost $200k. Please clarify this $200k 'upgrade' that exceeds the cost of most late-model used airplanes.
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And in the OP he said his plane is a 2000. He's referring to a 2008 airplane.

Seems about right. Looking at planes on the market with prices right now, there's a 2000 206 for $275K with steam and a 2008 206 for $450K with glass and GFC700. $175K, $200K, apparently it's all pocket change...

I get the GTN 750 but no clue why you'd do active traffic instead of ADS-B in/out. Do you fly where there are a lot of transponderless aircraft?
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Transponderless aircraft won't show up on an active traffic system either, making it seem even more pointless. :dunno:

If you want glass, why not G500? It's waaaaay less than $200k fo sho.
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Yup.
 
I would keep the plane and add the gtn. Probably the 650 and a decent coupling auto pilot. Your mission will change once you get your IFR tag.

Spend the money on the new plane that fits your new mission.

Or just get a 696 on the yoke for now.
 
Paul Hamilton said:
$200K to upgrade to glass? Don't you mean $20K?
I like glass, but no way I'd pay $20K to get it -- it won't make the airplane fly any better.
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No, $200k gets a G-1000 OEM plane, upgrade is $40-$75k depending on what you go with, $110k if you go all out and have better than a G-1000. At that point, if resale is any consideration, the G-1000 is a much better value.
 
I guess it's a case of "you don't know what you are missing" but I just couldn't see the justification of that kind of premium over steam.

As long as you have a good autopilot and a 430 or better, what else do you really need? Does glass really lighten the workload that much more?
 
Bonchie said:
I guess it's a case of "you don't know what you are missing" but I just couldn't see the justification of that kind of premium over steam.

As long as you have a good autopilot and a 430 or better, what else do you really need? Does glass really lighten the workload that much more?
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Correct, you don't know what you're missing. It's worth every penny the day it saves your life. The ability to assess your situation and take corrective actions quickly and confidently is so much greater with an SVT display than a six pack (including the "Glass Six Pack") it's really hard to go back unless you are a pro pilot flying a 2D panel for a living. Unfortunately I have a buddy CFI/I that is into having the latest and greatest information delivery system (that's what the panel is), and he has been giving me my FRs and IPCs in his plane for years, and I experienced first hand the evolution, and I cannot deny the increase in situational awareness and interpretional ease that it brought. When SVT came to the forefront, it revolutionized situational awareness in IMC to a level of eVFR with "at a glance" complete situational awareness. While this may seem like overkill and unnecessary, when the cascading failures start coming your way even in a training scenario, the advantages become obvious very quickly. You need very little attention to dedicate to controlling the plane while you work out the other problems. When I bought my 310, I knew I would have to put a panel in it to feel comfortable using it as an 'on demand' traveling machine as I do, so at the far end of the first flight, it got a new panel.:D
 
Henning said:
Correct, you don't know what you're missing. It's worth every penny the day it saves your life. The ability to assess your situation and take corrective actions quickly and confidently is so much greater with an SVT display than a six pack (including the "Glass Six Pack") it's really hard to go back unless you are a pro pilot flying a 2D panel for a living. Unfortunately I have a buddy CFI/I that is into having the latest and greatest information delivery system (that's what the panel is), and he has been giving me my FRs and IPCs in his plane for years, and I experienced first hand the evolution, and I cannot deny the increase in situational awareness and interpretional ease that it brought. When SVT came to the forefront, it revolutionized situational awareness in IMC to a level of eVFR with "at a glance" complete situational awareness. While this may seem like overkill and unnecessary, when the cascading failures start coming your way even in a training scenario, the advantages become obvious very quickly. You need very little attention to dedicate to controlling the plane while you work out the other problems. When I bought my 310, I knew I would have to put a panel in it to feel comfortable using it as an 'on demand' traveling machine as I do, so at the far end of the first flight, it got a new panel.:D
Click to expand...

Wouldn't a poor-man's solution be to get FF Pro and use SVT on your Ipad?

I'm still working on my IFR (right in the middle of it) and have resisted the urge to buy FF until I finish. Instead I'm using Fltplan GO (Free) for charts and geo-referenced stuff.
 
Bonchie said:
Wouldn't a poor-man's solution be to get FF Pro and use SVT on your Ipad?

I'm still working on my IFR (right in the middle of it) and have resisted the urge to buy FF until I finish. Instead I'm using Fltplan GO (Free) for charts and geo-referenced stuff.
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Yes, if you trust it to work when you need it. I use Garmin Pilot with a GDL-39-3D. It has the same interface as the GTN series boxes, and can control the 430/530 radios for a $1000 box to upgrade the system.

Hopefully the Pt. 23 revisions come about (and they up the application to meet the same 6000GW, any aircraft, Third Class Medical exemption revision that is supposed to come) and much more affordable in panel glass solutions (and autopilots) become applicable.
 
UPDATE...Going to keep plane I have, I changed to GDL 88 in lieu of GTS800 traffic. Thanks for all the wisdom in your comments.
Jon
 
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