To fly or not to fly with a new pilot...

You also have forgotten what it is to be a new pilot. In which case maybe you shouldn't be responding to questions posed by new pilots. I got my PPL 2 months ago.

I have been on 1 aerobatic ride.

If I had posed the question and gotten responses like "Aerobatics are not that big a deal if done at a much higher altitude" then this would be a whole different thread.

I know NOTHING about them. I know only to ask others about their thoughts. Others who have more skill and experience.

I spoke to the CFI I got his opinion. I posed the issue to the forum and got your opinions.

I have gut feelings, assumptions, and ideas about what might be right and wrong but I do not have the knowledge so I am seeking it out in places where it exists.

And damn you for ever stating that I am doing anything to make myself feel superior. You are flat wring sir! I have never claimed anywhere to be superior to ANYONE I have asked questions seeking information. I cannot live my life going on assumptions and gut feelings. I have to get them validated. I cannot get them validated by flying with the pilot I am concerned about and I cannot get them validated by asking him.


And as long as we are name calling now, I can only assume that you are a sad bitter old A-Hole who is perpetuating the stereotype of pilot Egos. Congratulations and suck it.

Leave me alone and I will stay off your lawn old man.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
You also have forgotten what it is to be a new pilot. In which case maybe you shouldn't be responding to questions posed by new pilots. I got my PPL 2 months ago.

I have been on 1 aerobatic ride.

If I had posed the question and gotten responses like "Aerobatics are not that big a deal if done at a much higher altitude" then this would be a whole different thread.

I know NOTHING about them. I know only to ask others about their thoughts. Others who have more skill and experience.

I spoke to the CFI I got his opinion. I posed the issue to the forum and got your opinions.

I have gut feelings, assumptions, and ideas about what might be right and wrong but I do not have the knowledge so I am seeking it out in places where it exists.

And damn you for ever stating that I am doing anything to make myself feel superior. You are flat wring sir! I have never claimed anywhere to be superior to ANYONE I have asked questions seeking information. I cannot live my life going on assumptions and gut feelings. I have to get them validated. I cannot get them validated by flying with the pilot I am concerned about and I cannot get them validated by asking him.


And as long as we are name calling now, I can only assume that you are a sad bitter old A-Hole who is perpetuating the stereotype of pilot Egos. Congratulations and suck it.

Leave me alone and I will stay off your lawn old man.
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:rofl:

All I am saying is make a decision and stop tearing down the other guy.

Now get off my lawn! :rofl:
 
Geico266 said:
:rofl:

All I am saying is make a decision and stop tearing down the other guy.

Now get off my lawn! :rofl:
Click to expand...


Maybe, but you are being a complete prick about it. In which case any meaning is lost.
 
Whoah someone was a prick on the interweb? Quick call the feelings police.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
split S
Click to expand...

Id be curious how these went for him in a newly aquired RV in his aerobatic experimentation stage....wonder how fast he got / how many G's he pulled. Id be hesitant to ever get in that plane again.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I cannot live my life going on assumptions and gut feelings. I have to get them validated.
Click to expand...

How many responses have validated going on the ride? And how many have raised serious concerns?

Sometimes we have to work through the overburden to get to the golf nuggets.
It is a difficult decision, but I am confident that you will make the right choice, whatever way you go.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Fly with him or not. Don't pine for new rules or expect him to change his behavior.
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This.

Also do not fly with someone that does not respect your limits. Nor drive with them. Maybe have sex with them, that usually won't kill ya.
 
We have spoken since this thread meandered here.

He is willing to keep it "boring for me" but sometime down the road I "Have to really see what this baby can do when I am more comfortable"
 
midlifeflyer said:
Aren't you doing the same thing with the CFI? You know, talking about how you decided he's a bad CFI who gossips and spreads rumors? :confused:
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There are enough forces in this country trying to tear down GA, don't be one of them.

What I'm trying to convey is the OP is "afraid" of flying with another pilot, not because the other pilot is a bad pilot. I would also have the same concerns about any pilot Iam going to do acrobatics with, but I would talk to the subject pilot, not a third party. :yes:

I could have said it better, and not be a "prick", for that I apologize. :redface:

Seriously, stay off my lawn! :rofl: ;)
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
He is a VERY smart man. Literally genuis. He remembers detailed info like you wouldn't believe and can crunch numbers.

He has had Zero acro training. Never flown Acro with a CFI
He reads books and teaches himself to do these things.
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Wow.

Where's that 11 foot pole when you need it?

You're right to be nervous.

He may be very smart, but that's really stupid behavior. That happens sometimes.

I'm sure you'll do the right thing, but I'll suggest listening to that little voice in your head, 'cause it's 100% right.

I wouldn't fly with a guy like that, period. Just because something may be illegal may not stop him. You'll find videos of 172 aileron rolls on youtube....

And I didn't think there was a such thimg as aerobatic category RV's. They are experimental category, right?
 
I didn't read all the posts can't believe its three pages long before I see it. I would love to see the RV you have two issues one is the Pilot's capable and two is the RV capable? The last few I have seen I would not do acrobatics in them.
When are you going up? I will be out as much as I can this next week.
Let's to a lunch run to the hard 8.
Tim
 
tecprotb said:
I didn't read all the posts can't believe its three pages long before I see it. I would love to see the RV you have two issues one is the Pilot's capable and two is the RV capable? The last few I have seen I would not do acrobatics in them.
When are you going up? I will be out as much as I can this next week.
Let's to a lunch run to the hard 8.
Tim
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I would love to.
Let me check my schedule (ask permission from the wife)
I am off until Thur so I should be good to go one day.

I am going up with a friend early Tue morning for about an hour. May have availability after that.

Will let you know
 
Geico266 said:
There are enough forces in this country trying to tear down GA, don't be one of them.

What I'm trying to convey is the OP is "afraid" of flying with another pilot, not because the other pilot is a bad pilot. I would also have the same concerns about any pilot Iam going to do acrobatics with, but I would talk to the subject pilot, not a third party. :yes:

I could have said it better, and not be a "prick", for that I apologize. :redface:

Seriously, stay off my lawn! :rofl: ;)
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Ok, I will try to explain this more clearly. I type in quick blasts with out really thinking line by line how it could be read. Really wish I hadn't added the line about an acro endorsement.

Anyway.

Is he a good pilot? Apparently. I believe he is. Would I fly with him based on that? You bet. I let him fly my plane.

What do I know about aerobatics? Nothing.
I see a guy doing aerobatics in an ultralight all the time at my former field. Canvas, pusher, slow Ultralight.

Skip forward. Said pilot now has his cert and says "hey can I show you some aerobatics in my new toy?"

I spoke to him for about an hour listening to the sales pitch about how fun it was and how I have to go up and try it.

Now here is the rub: I have never been in the plane. I don't know how aerobatics differs in an UL versus this new plane. I can talk to him til I am out of breath about it and the sales pitch will continue which is fine. He is very excited about his new plane. I enjoy listening to him talk about it.

Now lets take my "friend" out of the equation and I will rephrase the question in a generic manner that hopefully will not have holes for you to nit-pick at.

Would you consider it safe to perform aerobatics with a low hour private pilot / High hour UL pilot that has only done them prior to this last couple weeks in the ultralight? Are the maneuvers similar enough that the difference in plane is not a concern?

Other concerns (or maybe not?) is the ink hasn't dried on the tailwheel, complex, or HP endorsements.

He is in my opinion a very good pilot based on the times I have flown with him in two, single engine, trainer type aircraft. Should those fresh endorsements be concerns or are those things not a big deal? I have none of them either so I don't know how much more complicated it makes things. Maybe not much, maybe a lot. I have no frame of reference for this.

I am afraid to fly aerobatics with him because I do not know if it is safe or not based on his credentials. If I ask him if it is safe he is not going to say "actually, no, I really shouldn't be doing this" He will say "c'mon it is a blast" I have to get an opinion that did not originate from my gut or the pilot in question one says "yes" and the other says "I'm not so sure about this"

Hopefully that is less irritating to read than my original post.
Incidentally, if there is a flaming paper bag on your porch later tonight, stomp it out. you don't want that to spread.
 
Dude you gotta go with your gut. Look at it this way, your gut is way more reliable then an internet message board. Why are you still going on about this, you are starting to sound like a teenage girl?
 
When Naked, I look a lot like a teenage girl so it's okay? Thank's for being clever. I laughed a lot at the usage of the word "interweb" earlier? Like I couldn't quit laughing? Good stuff :) Write that down?

And I have already spoken to the pilot and we have an understanding?

Now I am just kicking the dead horse because it keeps waking up and My only other choice at this point is finish the drywall in my extra bedroom or watch the Cowboys get their ass handed to them? I would rather drink beers and futz around on my computer?

Thanks?
 
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By the way if you haven't tried it, the Roscoe's Hop House Amber Ale is pretty good.
 
Just make sure you're doing acro at altitude (7500+ agl) over the airfield. If he fumbles the loop at 7000 feet, you'll have plenty of time to take the controls, roll inverted, do a split s, drop the flaps at 1500 and land on the numbers. Throw him out and tell him to watch you do it correctly. When you cut your own wake, you'll feel the burble.
 
By the way, reach down the front of your pants with your right hand, go further than your twig and find the berries. Caress them. Apologize. Tell them you'll do better next time.

If you're a woman, ignore that advice. Caress your abdomen.... Etc.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
He is a VERY smart man. Literally genuis. He remembers detailed info like you wouldn't believe and can crunch numbers.

He has had Zero acro training. Never flown Acro with a CFI
He reads books and teaches himself to do these things.
Click to expand...

IMO a "VERY smart man" would engage an experienced acro pilot so as to learn safely. It's possible to learn acro entirely from books and solo practice but probably not a very good idea. If it weren't for the regs, you could say the same thing about learning to fly in the first place. The biggest problem with self teaching is that you have no way of knowing what you don't know.

And again 3 weeks ago did not have tailwheel, HP, or Complex
That is a lot of new stuff (in my opinion)
Click to expand...

While it might seem like a lot, it's not really. The HP and Complex (which used to be a single endorsement) can be taught to a quick learner with a half hour on the ground plus a couple hours flying and most of that will be spent making a dozen landings to build the habit of checking the gear many times before touching down. A TW endorsement can be had for a few hours in a docile conventional gear airplane if the instructor is good and the "student" has decent stick/rudder (emphasis on rudder) skills plus a reasonably good perception of yaw and sink rate during the roundout and touchdown. Both could be done in the same weekend under ideal circumstances. And FWIW, getting a TW endorsement will improve any pilot's landing skills in any airplane. I highly recommend it for new pilots.

I am going to tell him today that I will fly to get lunch with him but I am not going to do any maneuvers.
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Sounds like a sound plan. If this ruffles any feathers, this isn't anyone I'd want to fly with either.

It's is a requirement by law to wear parachutes when doing any kind of aerobatic maneuvers.
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FWIW, chutes are only required if passengers are carried. Of course a prudent pilot will wear a chute for acro even when solo.
Plus that plane is only rated for aerobatics with one person in it. With two pilots the Weight and CG takes it out if the aerobatic category and puts it back in normal category.
Click to expand...

If that's the case I'd hope the pilot has enough sense to avoid acro when loaded outside the allowable acro weight/CG limits. That said, I've never heard of a two place airplane with such a restriction (assuming the two of you don't total way on the high side of "normal" weight wise). I'm not saying this can't be true, but it sounds unlikely.
 
Well this thread turned pretty ugly after a page and a bit.

Six, I'd personally tell him I didn't feel comfortable with acrobatics based off what you've said here so far. Even without the CFI's opinion, he's a bit too fresh in my opinion to go bombing around the sky like that with. He may have had a lot of hours in ultralights etc but I'm a stickler for in-type experience. An RV-12 is different than a Cessna is different from an ultralight. There's a kind of experience that you only get from flying in a certain kind of aircraft certain ways. If you're a pro acro pilot, fine, you can hop in different models of aircraft and do it, but not between classes (ultralight vs RV-12 vs Extra 300 or beyond) like that IMO.

I think it's good ADM to consider whether or not to fly with the guy so you don't end up in the accident that Rotor and Wing linked. I would just be straight, I'll fly with you but without acrobatics, I don't like the idea, I'll fly with you once you get your acro rating and signoff but until then standard flying or nothing, etc etc.

And I don't consider it to be high-school like drama going on here, the guy doesn't want to get killed but doesn't want to be a jerk to his friend either. Contribute something positive or constructive at least and leave it at that :/
 
There are a lot of not very smart people who remember things easily and can "crunch numbers" too. Self teaching works for some things, whether that be developing an actual understanding of a topic, or just a way to get accolades and praise from your friends who don't know any better. I'm guessing this guy is in the second category by your description. Either way, I wouldn't want to be about to bottom out of a loop 100 ft underground in some retarded RV aerobatics when he realizes it too. And who logs ultralight time? 2000 hrs in an ultralight sounds a whole lot like 0 hours in a real airplane.
 
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Why wouldn't someone log ultralight time? It doesn't mean anything for an ATP but 99.9% of private poilots log time that won't be used for an ATP either. Never flown one but it appears ultralights are more dynamic then most GA spamcans.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Why wouldn't someone log ultralight time? It doesn't mean anything for an ATP but 99.9% of private poilots log time that won't be used for an ATP either. Never flown one but it appears ultralights are more dynamic then most GA spamcans.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I suppose. Maybe that was a little aggressive. Still, I don't feel like it is experience that really translates into any true flying experience. I guess it might depend on the type of ultralight, but there are a lot of guys out there with basically a lawn mower motor strapped to a parachute who can and do land anywhere they want, don't climb much above tree top level, and don't have to think or apply judgement that exceeds the gravity or the speed of a scooter. But I will agree, it is still flying a machine that moves through some portion of the sky, for whatever value that adds to one's toolbox.
 
Resurrecting this thread.

So the conversation went like this.
Last week he calls me up (let's call him Dave for the sake of the thread)

Dave: Hey Bryan, it has been too long. When are we going up.
Me: Hi Dave, I will meet you out at the field Wednesday.
Together we shall soar like birds through the heavens.

Wednesday arrives. I will set the scene for you.
It was a cold crisp morning Dave was awkwardly fumbling around in his hanger looking confused.
I appear in the doorway very stoic, with just the right amount of grey in my beard and a bit of sweat glistening off my brow as it caught the sunlight just perfectly. Head cocked sideways (just slightly), hair perfectly parted, and smelling of old spice, I approached Dave.

Note:
Please read all of my lines in the style of William Shatner
Read Dave's in the style of Sean Connery In fact moving forward, Dave shall be known as Sean. It is just going to work better that way.

Sean (Remember its really Dave): Hey Bryan, this is going to be so fun. I think you are going to enjoy the power of this plane.
Me: Sean. I am not going upside down.

Sean (Dave): How much do you weigh?
Me: 195. why? And I am not going upside down. I said that right?

Sean (Dave): okay, take off your coat and empty your pockets. Make yourself as light as possible or we will be slightly over weight.
Me: Um wait what? Sean how about we just fly around in my plane. We can both wear our coats. We could even go buy second coats and wear them both.

Sean: You are funny, you are going to love this. The g's in the loops are Amazing
Me: Sean I am not kidding. I don't want to fly upside down. I have 2 small kids at home.

Sean: Look, we will do an immelman (sp?), into a split S then a couple loops and then see how you are feeling then Huh?
Me: Sean that sounds suspiciously similar to flying upside down.

Sean: Look you are worried about nothing it is totally safe.
Me: Where are the parachutes?

Sean: The CG is going to be slightly aft so we may be limited in what we can do.

Me: Can the plane fly straight and level with the CG slightly aft? I really like flying straight and level. Also is it going to be cold in there? I miss my coat.

We get in the plane. He seemed more confident than me. I was preparing to meet my maker and trying to figure out how I would explain to him that didn't use the judgement he gave me to not get in the plane.

Taxi, radio, line up, Zoom. right away climbing at the steepest angle ever (What is steeper than 180? Whatever, Sean found it)

Couple times around the pattern 3 point landing, landing on mains, landing on 1 main, then rocket back up to 6k

Me: Hey Sean , it sure is cold up here
Sean: Let's do a loop

Me: no

Sean: What about a split S

Me: no

Sean: This thing is rated for 7Gs

Me: I'm not.

Me (wheels spinning): How bout I take a shot at flying
Sean: Great your airplane
Me: I have the flight controls

I fly. It is a lot of fun but I am behind the plane a bit. Do some steep turns and fly around doing some sight seeing.

I give the plane back to Dave.. Er.. Sean

Sean: You are really missing out you need to really do some aerobatics to appreciate the plane.

Me: You wouldn't believe just how appreciative I am right now with the sky above me and the world below.

More back and forth and under the pressure I caved... I wanted to get down so I said "look, we can do an aileron roll, and a wing over and some stalls but I am not going to do any high G maneuvering. I am just not. This isn't my thing."

So we did a couple rolls and they were fine. He wanted to do more but I just said I was too nervous and needed to get back down.

We get out of the plane.

Sean: Not too bad next time, we will do the split S. Maybe over time you will get more confident and we can go from maneuver to maneuver to maneuver really quickly like in the airshows.

I like "Friend Sean " better than "Pilot Sean ". Friend Sean is a cool guy.
I enjoyed the flight in spite of my inner father asking me what the hell I was thinking.
I am disappointed, I didn't just put my foot down from the get go and say. I am not getting in the plane if you are going to do things I'm not comfortable with.

So we had some small talk and then parted ways for the day there at the field. I walked away disappearing into the shadows.

Off in the distance Sean watched as I boarded my craft and set off into the sunset. As I departed the pattern, I believe I saw him wipe a tear from his cheek. Not an uncommon reaction by those that are fortunate enough to witness me taking flight with a certain grace and perfection thought to only exist in books and old movies.

I headed to my home field and was deciding what type of landing to do. Short field? soft field? No no... Perfect. I chose to do the perfect landing. That one is a classic and one of my favorites. I radioed a head to let them know they could come out and calibrate the VASI based off my final leg so other pilots may also fly in my shoes and come close to knowing what truly flying is.
 
William Shatner?

Does that mean you have to sleep with anything with legs, or you have psychotic hallucinations of gremlins ripping the engine apart? :)

It's your decision, but flying with this guy is something I wouldn't do. I do not like to be pressured out of my safety decisions. Period, full stop.
 
MAKG1 said:
William Shatner?

Does that mean you have to sleep with anything with legs, or you have psychotic hallucinations of gremlins ripping the engine apart? :)

It's your decision, but flying with this guy is something I wouldn't do. I do not like to be pressured out of my safety decisions. Period, full stop.
Click to expand...

It is a hard thing to do when you have a friend that has this new found freedom and wants...

Meh, it just sucks. You are right.
 
haha "We" can't
I will be happy to film you from the ground though.
 
You've gotta take your coat off in order to put the parachute on. :wink2:
 
None of the RVs are rated to 7Gs.

+6/-3 is it, and you need to be under the max aerobatic gross, and only the -7 and -8 have a high enough aerobatic gross weight to hold two aboard and still be under that weight... if you have a light enough fuel load.

The 4 and 6 are under their aerobatic max gross only with one person onboard. 1-G rolls are OK in them with two onboard but I sure wouldn't try much more than that, and I've got quite a bit of RV time under my belt now in the 4,6,7 and 8 models. The 8 is IMHO the best and safest one to do any acro with two onboard.

That said, I honestly wouldn't advise going for an acro ride with a brand new pilot doing hotdogging stuff with his brand new to him RV until after he's got at least 100 hours or more of RV time under his belt.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
It is a hard thing to do when you have a friend that has this new found freedom and wants...

Meh, it just sucks. You are right.
Click to expand...

The Latin phrase in my signature line might be familiar to you. I took a liking to it part way through my training because I am prone to timidity, which in my flying manifests itself as a tendency to make indecisive control movements. I have probably bastardized its use a bit, but so be it.

But I find the phrase to be a useful reminder in my daily life as well. It sounds like you could have used a dose of it. Frankly, I'd probably be prone to make the same decision you did, even though I had similar feelings of reservation. Hopefully I'd recite the phrase and stick to my guns. The worst that could happen is he disowns you as a friend. In that case, you just find a new genius friend.
 
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