To fly first or get my A&P....

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grand_sea

Filing Flight Plan
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Ricky
I've been in the U.S. Army now for about 5years as a 15Y, A.K.A I fix anything with wires and anything that goes boom on the AH-64D Apache-Longbow Helicopter. I have 4 lovely children (ages 2-9) and I'm currently stationed at Fort Carson in the lovely shadows of Cheyenne Mountain, Colorado Springs, CO.

With all that being said I've allways wanted to fly either private or as a commercial pilot and I've allways loved fixing things and with already having 5yrs in as an avionics/electrical systems repairer I'm kind of torn.

I have the GI bill which will pay for up to 36months of schooling (not including my private pilots lic. that will have to be out of pocket) and most pilot schools say you can work your way up to CFII in that time...or I can go to a Denver School to get my an Associates of occupational Science degree in A&P mechanics and another in AET(Advanced Electronics Technician) which would certify me to work on most everything on any aircraft.

I want your expert opinions on which I should do first and why? With the understanding that eventually I will do both either way and I would like to stay in Colorado!
 
Could you apply for the A&P based on your military experience? That would leave your GI bill for flying...
 
because I strictly worked on only the electrical, avionics and weapon systems it would only cover the electrical portions of the A&P which is only a small section. I have no Idea how to tell the differance between the many differant types of rivets or what tools you would use to properly install them...so I would need to go through the full course not to mention the Army's Electronic manuals are so user friendly and easy to follow that anyone with an 8th grade reading level and some basic knowledge of the aircraft could figure it out for the most part...(of course this is not including the wires...but more so the troubleshooting and rmove and re-installing of differant parts). My exp. only makes it easier to find the proper guide to fix it in our manual and allows me to catch when it's pilot error or an actual issue!
 
I would go with CFII

you can get a paid position doing repair work for a shop - without your A&P. You get paid while collecting experience toward the A&P. Getting hours towards your CFII rating.. no way.. you pay.. lots!
 
I'd go to A&P. Not only is a very powerful lead into employemnt as a pilot, but A&Ps are in demand in industry. They:
Can follow complex directions
KNOW when to get more detailed direction.
Are by and large self starting and do not require supervision.

Think about this as if you were an employer. We have A&Ps working I.T, systems management, just about everything that's technical.

Plus, you will be able to generate revenue immediately upon graduation. PVT ASEL is always after tax anyway. Ratings beyond that...they're "professional necessities" and pretax if you are working in aviation, with a need for the rating.
 
A&P first, if that is a choice.
As a pilot, your chances of owning a plane with any affordability at all will be greatly enhanced with that in your pocket. If not a full owner, as a partner in any aircraft, you have a powerful bargaining position with your co-owners to perhaps lessen your costs, both for yourself and the group.
 
Since I'm seeing alot of A&P here I have one more? If I get my A&P then build say a KitCub or any of the numerous other amazing kit planes and build it myself will it still be classified as an experimental (not that it matters to the OP but just curious)?
 
Arm't Dawg?

Former 67R here.

You ever stationed at FOB Salerno by any chance?

Oh, on topic, my day job is A&P and piloting is my hobby. As another possibility, plenty of tron shops won't require an A&P, but the experience at one could maybe count in that direction.

Edit... Did you ever work on 98-5086 by any chance?
 
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grand_sea said:
thank you for your quick reply! As I said, this in no way will effect my decision but has been a question...
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What you could do is rebuild a cub if you wanted to end up with a certificated machine.

I'm considering it myself, but it's still probably less expensive to just buy a flying example.
 
Even with the avg cost of PPL at about $8K-$12K that will be easy enough to save up over the next 2yrs. give or take even if I'm in school for A&P as long as I have at least a small side job. (this statement in no way means I've made a up my mind but I have almost a year to decide!) Thank all of you for your insight!
 
Skylane81E said:
What you could do is rebuild a cub if you wanted to end up with a certificated machine.

I'm considering it myself, but it's still probably less expensive to just buy a flying example.
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I'm interested in building at minimum a 51% kit! Not just for the savings(from what I've found there isn't any savings or very little) but also for the experience.
 
darrell said:
Arm't Dawg?

Former 67R here.

You ever stationed at FOB Salerno by any chance?

Oh, on topic, my day job is A&P and piloting is my hobby. As another possibility, plenty of tron shops won't require an A&P, but the experience at one could maybe count in that direction.

Edit... Did you ever work on 98-5086 by any chance?
Click to expand...


I've been stationed at Camp Eagle South Korea from 2008-09, then our Battalion moved to Fort Carson and I've been here every since. and yes I'm a 1-2AVN D Co. ARMT dawg!!
 
I think you should decide what you really want to do with your life and go do it, and really open your imagination on this.

In my opinion, too many ex-enlisted people take a second class enlisted approach to choosing their next carrier. All too often it looks a lot like what they did as an enlisted. That could be terrible waste if you are a very smart person.

For your next choice, get it right! You can now go on to be the General, or commander in chief, or the world famous heart surgeon, or a mega million financial guru CEO.

Don't take no for an answer. Believe that you cannot fail and go for it.
 
grand_sea said:
I'm interested in building at minimum a 51% kit! Not just for the savings(from what I've found there isn't any savings or very little) but also for the experience.
Click to expand...

Depending on what you buy it could be as much or more work than a 51% kit!
 
grand_sea said:
I've been in the U.S. Army now for about 5years as a 15Y, A.K.A I fix anything with wires and anything that goes boom on the AH-64D Apache-Longbow Helicopter. I have 4 lovely children (ages 2-9) and I'm currently stationed at Fort Carson in the lovely shadows of Cheyenne Mountain, Colorado Springs, CO.

With all that being said I've allways wanted to fly either private or as a commercial pilot and I've allways loved fixing things and with already having 5yrs in as an avionics/electrical systems repairer I'm kind of torn.

I have the GI bill which will pay for up to 36months of schooling (not including my private pilots lic. that will have to be out of pocket) and most pilot schools say you can work your way up to CFII in that time...or I can go to a Denver School to get my an Associates of occupational Science degree in A&P mechanics and another in AET(Advanced Electronics Technician) which would certify me to work on most everything on any aircraft.

I want your expert opinions on which I should do first and why? With the understanding that eventually I will do both either way and I would like to stay in Colorado!
Click to expand...

With your back ground I'd forget the A&P, get your Radio repair station going and install, repair, and service the avionics in the aircraft. This activity will make you more money in a shorter amount of time than the A&P and the PPL.
I just had my transponder check completed at $150.00 and the shop did 10 that day. do the math.
 
Tom-D said:
With your back ground I'd forget the A&P, get your Radio repair station going and install, repair, and service the avionics in the aircraft. This activity will make you more money in a shorter amount of time than the A&P and the PPL.
I just had my transponder check completed at $150.00 and the shop did 10 that day. do the math.
Click to expand...

Another valid suggestion
 
Tom-D said:
With your back ground I'd forget the A&P, get your Radio repair station going and install, repair, and service the avionics in the aircraft. This activity will make you more money in a shorter amount of time than the A&P and the PPL.
I just had my transponder check completed at $150.00 and the shop did 10 that day. do the math.
Click to expand...

If I do the schooling first, I will be doing both A&P & AET @ RED STONE Tech in Broomfield,Co. That way I'll keep all my options open in both the aviation and electronics for manufacturing careers...and I will not need to work under an A&P for on aircraft repairs.

Where of I go for a flight school I will have to pay for my PPL & the GI bill will pay up to a CGI or CFII depending on the school or how fast I learn.
 
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grand_sea said:
I'm a 1-2AVN D Co. ARMT dawg!!
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Half Attack!

(Most of my career was C/2-101)

98-5086 is the D-model that was built from my old A-model, 84-24234...been wondering what ever happened to it.

As mentioned previously, the radio station license is a good deal. We have a large tron shop where I work and almost none of them have an A&P, and only a couple have their A-license (no P). Avionics work on the civilian side is a decent gig and probably better than a lot of A&P jobs out there, especially now that so many airplanes have so much electro-wizardy these days.
 
If you have electronic and avionics abilities and skills, that's much more in demand that generic mechanic skills.

Insofar as seeking an A&P; do you want to fly, our turn wrenches?
 
I agree with DouglasBader. I'm an active duty 15U, and I got my A&P last summer using a local school. it all boils down to what the FAA will grant you for your military experience. They have a chart that lists MOS and which 8610's they will grant to take the tests. Don't have it handy right now, but search their site.

My unit actually brought the guy from the FSDO to Ft. Campbell, to do everybody's paperwork.

I know that they are offering the A&P 10 day short course to some guys who are going through ALC (BNCOC) as well. My little brother got his that way.

I saw a guy who use to work in our avionics shop get out and get a job with Rockwell Collins doing tech rep work on our CAAS components. Integrated avionics experience is a good thing to have, and I wouldn't worry about the A&P.

Good luck!

Brad
 
15Y is enough to get your A license, which saves you the trouble of doing a long school program. Instead, you can spend two weeks at a testing facility and get your General/Airframe done, and then you can always look into the value of the Powerplant rating later, but if you end up sticking with the avionics path (a good path imo) then the A license is more than sufficient and could make you more competetive when compared to other avionics techs who don't have any mechanic rating at all.
 
DouglasBader said:
If you have electronic and avionics abilities and skills, that's much more in demand that generic mechanic skills.

Insofar as seeking an A&P; do you want to fly, our turn wrenches?
Click to expand...

If it were that easy I wouldn't have posed the question on here. of coursw I wan't to do both...the question was which I should do first and as evident here I should do the schooling first. I don't want to half-@$$ it, I want to learn how to do it, not just take a 7day class and memorize the Q&A database...so I can flush it all the day after I pass the test....then go to an employer who tells me to replace a rod end on a push pull rod and I go um...could you show me I've never done that....
 
I don't think I spoke of simplicity or how easy it might be.

I did say that electronic skills and certification (GROL, etc) is far more valuable than having a mechanic certificate with an airframe and power plant rating.

A&P mechanics are a dime a dozen. I know; I are one.

So are pilots.

As someone who's turned wrenches, inspected, and flown airplanes for his entire career (since mid-teens, in fact), my view on having the mechanic certification is that it's useful, it's important if people are so inclined, but it will also (or can) interfere with your flying career plans.

You can earn maintenance certification on the job by showing 30 months of work experience and taking the written and practical tests. You can't do that with pilot certification.

There's only one way you're going to learn to fly, assuming WOFT isn't open to you. You're going to have to pay for it initially, as you've indicated, and finish out with the GI bill.

You can always get involved in maintenance operations, record your experience, then go get your mechanic certificate, while you're working, if that's what you want to do.

Maintenance schools give a very general smattering of knowledge and exposure to a broad range of subjects, but leave you barely qualified upon completion. You have your A&P, and they're great for someone who has never turned a wrench or maintained an aircraft before, and they do give you an introduction to many different areas of aviation maintenance. However, I've worked alongside recent graduates from maintenance schools who couldn't remove screws, and I'm quite serious about that. Their knowledge in so many areas, and basic ones at that, was sorely lacking, and in my opinion, they'd have been far better to find a place that would hire them, and learn on the job.

That particular school was part of a well respected university. The students from that school were hired by a number of local employers. I happened to work for one, and saw their work first hand, and we couldn't allow them to work unsupervised on anything. They had difficulty applying safety wire. I was shocked when I asked them to cherrymax something, and they'd never heard of a blind rivet. I asked if they knew what a pop rivet was, and they didn't know. They'd never seen it demonstrated, knew nothing about doing that kind of work, and that's very basic stuff.

This isn't to say you should go to a maintenance school. You may find that you can get your certification now, with some help from your unit and the FAA, and learn on the job while you concentrate your funds on your flight training.

You can do it the other way around; get your flight training and get maintenance experience on the side toward certification, but it's not nearly so easy.
 
Sorry Doug I misunderstood your earlier post! I am planning on going to Redstone only because it will allow me to get both my A&P and my AET(in 36mo's with the post 911 GI bill covering it all) I need a brush up on even basic elec. theory. but correct me if I'm wrong in saying that going for 20 months for AET which will get me an AOS degree, plus my Fiber optics, Bendix, FCC radar, FCC radio station repair, etc sounds great but if I can get this plus another AOS and my A&P in 36mo's will that not only look better on my resume' but also open the doors for me as a mechanic in the FAA's mind?

With all that being said I understand that I'm not going to finish 36months of training and open my own hanger at the local FBO doing Annuals! But, in a matter of lic. and certifications isn't it better to have all the paper saying you can before your working on unkle Joe's favorite '64 vintage taildragger or Harrison Ford's Cessna CJ3 Citation. I'm just trying to be as marketable as possible. I can already change a light bulb, or replace a wire...I just can't walk up to a bench and test a radio, adjusting a radar altimeter is easy...but only if you know where to find it...lol! Walking into an interview with all the cert's I need, 2 AOS's, 10yrs in soldering, reworking and manufacturing electronics, and 6 yrs as a 15Y for the Army looks really good on the Resume. All that minus the cert's and half the places might not look at me and even if they do they might not pay enough to feed 4 kids and keep a roof over their head. Much less pay for my own house instead of rent, etc. I'm 32 and though that isn't old, I'm not getting younger and so I want to learn from others mistakes and experiances so my kids don't have to suffer for my taking the wrong road...
 
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grand_sea said:
Sorry Doug I misunderstood your earlier post! I am planning on going to Redstone only because it will allow me to get both my A&P and my AET(in 36mo's with the post 911 GI bill covering it all) I need a brush up on even basic elec. theory. but correct me if I'm wrong in saying that going for 20 months for AET which will get me an AOS degree, plus my Fiber optics, Bendix, FCC radar, FCC radio station repair, etc sounds great but if I can get this plus another AOS and my A&P in 36mo's will that not only look better on my resume' but also open the doors for me as a mechanic in the FAA's mind?

With all that being said I understand that I'm not going to finish 36months of training and open my own hanger at the local FBO doing Annuals! But, in a matter of lic. and certifications isn't it better to have all the paper saying you can before your working on unkle Joe's favorite '64 vintage taildragger or Harrison Ford's Cessna CJ3 Citation. I'm just trying to be as marketable as possible. I can already change a light bulb, or replace a wire...I just can't walk up to a bench and test a radio, adjusting a radar altimeter is easy...but only if you know where to find it...lol! Walking into an interview with all the cert's I need, 2 AOS's, 10yrs in soldering, reworking and manufacturing electronics, and 6 yrs as a 15Y for the Army looks really good on the Resume. All that minus the cert's and half the places might not look at me and even if they do they might not pay enough to feed 4 kids and keep a roof over their head. Much less pay for my own house instead of rent, etc. I'm 32 and though that isn't old, I'm not getting younger and so I want to learn from others mistakes and experiances so my kids don't have to suffer for my taking the wrong road...
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You do not need a hangar, or to be an FBO, all you need is a CRS certificate and a tool box to work out of.

there are 2 AV techs that work out of their trucks around Puget Sound and will come to you. both are doing well.
 
Tom-D said:
You do not need a hangar, or to be an FBO, all you need is a CRS certificate and a tool box to work out of.

there are 2 AV techs that work out of their trucks around Puget Sound and will come to you. both are doing well.
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I know you need not a hanger....was merely illistrating the fact that I understand that I'm not going to get out of school knowing all there is to know!

On the other note if anyone on here knows someone in the Colorado Springs area that needs a hand in say 6mo's or wouldn't mind getting a free meal for a good conversation about work....please let me know...and/or PM me!!
 
Well, I have no opinion either about which you should pursue, but just so you know...

with the Post 9/11 GI bill, you can go from zero hours to CFII, fixed wing or rotor, without a penny out of pocket. PM me if you want to know more, I'll give you a call and explain it.
 
bqmassey said:
Well, I have no opinion either about which you should pursue, but just so you know...

with the Post 9/11 GI bill, you can go from zero hours to CFII, fixed wing or rotor, without a penny out of pocket. PM me if you want to know more, I'll give you a call and explain it.
Click to expand...

I'd use the GI bill benefits for flight training first and if any are left, A&P training last. It would cost far more out of pocket without the GI bill to get the various ratings up to ATP (if that's your ultimate goal) than to get the A&P certificates especially if you go to a community college. Learning to fly is expensive, learning to turn wrenches not so much. You get bigger bang for the buck using the GI bill for flight training.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you get like $10k per academic year (July thru the following August) if going through a VA 141 flight school, right? I am retiring after 20 next year and am trying to start Inst, Comm, CFI, etc... I've got my cert of eligibility, just trying to figure out where to take it for best bang for the buck.
 
Numbers vary state by state and school by school. And I still read where you are on your own for PPL and then post-9/11 kicks in for 141 schools. Someone here says it will pay for PPL. I transferred my benefits to kids so I haven't looked at it closely
 
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