To be, or not to be an ATP

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VETERAN2PILOT

Filing Flight Plan
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VETERAN2PILOT
For those of you who have gone from zero to hero... If you truly love flying, is it really worth the extensive commitment of time and money for a job that pays so little? I mean after all “Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life." If you have been successful, please share briefly how you have gotten to where you are now? Could use some advice on what route I should take to ultimately be a Professional Commercial Pilot.
 
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VETERAN2PILOT said:
For those of you who have gone from zero to hero... If you truly love flying, is it really worth the extensive commitment of time and money for a job that pays so little? I mean after all “Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life.”
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So little? If you have low expectations, maybe. I have a very lucrative career in aviation as do most of my friends.

But stand by, there will be several that are going to chime in and tell you not to do it and how awful it is. Of course, they aren't professional pilots, but that doesn't matter. :rolleyes:
 
RotorAndWing said:
So little? If you have low expectations, maybe. I have a very lucrative career in aviation as do most of my friends.

But stand by, there will be several that are going to chime in and tell you not to do it and how awful it is. Of course, they aren't professional pilots, but that doesn't matter. :rolleyes:
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Haha. I'm sure there will be many nay sayers. I can only hope my path will be as fortunate as yours. Would you mind briefly laying out the path you've taken?
 
Same thing can be said about a PHD.

Plenty if PHDs who don't make crap, outside of scholastics they are as useful as a pork pie in a synagogue.

I have an ATP, make good money and only work half a year but with a full years pay (salary).

You do know you don't pay for 1500hrs right? Those are hours you build while WORKING.
 
James331 said:
Same thing can be said about a PHD.

Plenty if PHDs who don't make crap, outside of scholastics they are as useful as a pork pie in a synagogue.

I have an ATP, make good money and only work half a year but with a full years pay (salary).

You do know you don't pay for 1500hrs right? Those are hours you build while WORKING.
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Build while working as a CFI you mean...? How did you go about getting to where you are now?
 
CFIing, doing some part 91 work too, DZ stuff, etc.

Plenty of jobs don't require an ATP or 1500hrs.

It's just like starting in any industry, you don't just walk into the top position, you work at diffrent levels to build your experience up for the higher licenses and jobs.

Nothing unique about aviation vs any other vocation in that regard.

Pay hasn't been that bad, my first job after my CPL was 30k a year with free housing (nice condo style too).
 
Worked as a lineman in high school, CFII and flew skydivers starting junior year of college, graduated with enough time to get picked up by the commuters. Five years later lucky enough to go to one of the major cargo carriers.

Like a previous poster said, get your CFI and let others pay for your flying. A little luck doesn't hurt either.
 
Busflyer said:
Worked as a lineman in high school, CFII and flew skydivers starting junior year of college, graduated with enough time to get picked up by the commuters. Five years later lucky enough to go to one of the major cargo carriers.

Like a previous poster said, get your CFI and let others pay for your flying. A little luck doesn't hurt either.
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I appreciate the response. Will do on the CFI.
 
Worked as a lineman in high school and college to pay for the flight training. Ended up getting the Commercial single, instrument, multi-engine. Didn't pay for all of it. Friend had a Seneca he let me use for the multi and some other free flying working at the airport. Went to college and did Air Force ROTC got a pilot spot, went to Air Force pilot training and now flying the heavy iron.
 
Let me start off with saying I didn't start flight training until I was 344 34 years old.

I started as a flight instructor and took any flight that came my way. While an instructor I contracted with timber companies to fly over their trees looking for fires. That led to a position flying lead plane for the bombers.

That took me to Alaska where I flew as a bush pilot for years. During that time I got experience in many different planes, single piston and turbine, twin piston and turbine. In all kinds of weather. Flying VFR with 500 and 1 through mountainous areas turns the hair different colors. I have landed with so much ice on the plane that the struts were almost completely compressed. Pilots died there. I was lucky.

After Alaska I had a very short career in the airlines. A mouthy captain mouthed off to me at the wrong time. Guess who was fired. Not me. After I was "acquitted" I left that now defunct airline and was going back to Alaska when something different came up.

A position in New Mexico flying an air ambulance was next. That company was a great company that I would still be working for today if they had not sold out to a not so great company. Eventually a couple other pilots and myself bought a small air ambulance company.

Now our company is growing and this month (fingers crossed) we will be starting international air ambulance operations. Our business plans has other ventures in ambulance and aviation business. I plan to stay here until I am ready to retire, unless some one offers us way too much money for us to refuse. I have 10 years left until I want to retire and who knows, maybe then I'll go back to Alaska flying eskimo in a C-206 again. Probably the same one I started in years ago.

Like a tired old cliche', it has been a long and strange journey. It was never easy, and there were times I thought I would never find that next job. Sometimes I was happy with a job, sometimes I could not wait to get away. Even starting the business there was a couple times when we thought it would all collapse on us. I never in my life imagined I would own a successful aviation business. Now my problem is that I don't get to fly very often.
 
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Zeldman said:
Let me start off with saying I didn't start flight training until I was 344 years old.

I started as a flight instructor and took any flight that came my way. While an instructor I contracted with timber companies to fly over their trees looking for fires. That led to a position flying lead plane for the bombers.

That took me to Alaska where I flew as a bush pilot for years. During that time I got experience in many different planes, single piston and turbine, twin piston and turbine. In all kinds of weather. Flying VFR with 500 and 1 through mountainous areas turns the hair different colors. I have landed with so much ice on the plane that the struts were almost completely compressed. Pilots died there. I was lucky.

After Alaska I had a very short career in the airlines. A mouthy captain mouthed off to me at the wrong time. Guess who was fired. Not me. After I was "acquitted" I left that now defunct airline and was going back to Alaska when something different came up.

A position in New Mexico flying an air ambulance was next. That company was a great company that I would still be working for today if they had not sold out to a not so great company. Eventually a couple other pilots and myself bought a small air ambulance company.

Now our company is growing and this month (fingers crossed) we will be starting international air ambulance operations. Our business plans has other ventures in ambulance and aviation business. I plan to stay here until I am ready to retire, unless some one offers us way too much money for us to refuse. I have 10 years left until I want to retire and who knows, maybe then I'll go back to Alaska flying eskimo in a C-206 again. Probably the same one I started in years ago.

Like a tired old cliche', it has been a long and strange journey. It was never easy, and there were times I thought I would never find that next job. Sometimes I was happy with a job, sometimes I could not wait to get away. Even starting the business there was a couple times when we thought it would all collapse on us. I never in my life imagined I would own a successful aviation business. Now my problem is that I don't get to fly very often.
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That's awesome. Especially the air ambulance part. Been a medic/firefighter since 2010 and being able to fly for an air ambulance service someday would be amazing. Thanks for your post Billy
 
Zeldman said:
Let me start off with saying I didn't start flight training until I was 344 34 years old.

I started as a flight instructor and took any flight that came my way. While an instructor I contracted with timber companies to fly over their trees looking for fires. That led to a position flying lead plane for the bombers.

That took me to Alaska where I flew as a bush pilot for years. During that time I got experience in many different planes, single piston and turbine, twin piston and turbine. In all kinds of weather. Flying VFR with 500 and 1 through mountainous areas turns the hair different colors. I have landed with so much ice on the plane that the struts were almost completely compressed. Pilots died there. I was lucky.

After Alaska I had a very short career in the airlines. A mouthy captain mouthed off to me at the wrong time. Guess who was fired. Not me. After I was "acquitted" I left that now defunct airline and was going back to Alaska when something different came up.

A position in New Mexico flying an air ambulance was next. That company was a great company that I would still be working for today if they had not sold out to a not so great company. Eventually a couple other pilots and myself bought a small air ambulance company.

Now our company is growing and this month (fingers crossed) we will be starting international air ambulance operations. Our business plans has other ventures in ambulance and aviation business. I plan to stay here until I am ready to retire, unless some one offers us way too much money for us to refuse. I have 10 years left until I want to retire and who knows, maybe then I'll go back to Alaska flying eskimo in a C-206 again. Probably the same one I started in years ago.

Like a tired old cliche', it has been a long and strange journey. It was never easy, and there were times I thought I would never find that next job. Sometimes I was happy with a job, sometimes I could not wait to get away. Even starting the business there was a couple times when we thought it would all collapse on us. I never in my life imagined I would own a successful aviation business. Now my problem is that I don't get to fly very often.
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Were you flying for Native Air in NM?
 
VETERAN2PILOT said:
That's awesome. Especially the air ambulance part. Been a medic/firefighter since 2010 and being able to fly for an air ambulance service someday would be amazing. Thanks for your post Billy
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If you're worried about being paid so little, you don't go looking to fly air ambulance. ATP (captain) jobs pay far more.

I think you need to do a lot more research on the market before deciding on a path. Pay is just one piece of the puzzle.
 
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Go for it. My dad worked worked hard to get to where he is now. It's not easy and flying is really competetive. My dad went the civilian route and got his CFI's. He became Chief CFI for a 141 school in Florida, then left to do commuter trips from FLL, MIA, FXE to the Bahamas. After he moved to NY and worked for commuters in upstate and got his first job flying turbines in Beech 1900's then Saab 340's for BusEx. After he got hired by Northwest on the DC-9 and flew that for a while and became a check airman for NWA. After the merger with Delta he was on the 747 for a few years and 767-400. Currently he's a captain on the 737. My parents would always tell me how difficult it was when hefirst started off and how much sacrificing they had to do. But hard work pays off eventually. The one thing he said he would do differently is going to a regional faster. He was making good enough money being the Chief CFi that he turned down several commuter jobs. He didn't get hired by Northwest until his mid thirties. He always tells me that seniority is everything and that I should take the first regional job that I get offered.
 
Velocity173 said:
If you're worried about being paid so little, you don't go looking to fly air ambulance. ATP (captain) jobs pay far more.

I think you need to do a lot more research on the market before deciding on a path. Pay is just one piece of the puzzle.
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Depends on who you fly for.
 
James331 said:
Depends on who you fly for.
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You could pretty much say that about every flying job. There are huge differences in pay in the RW community just as there are FW. But unless you're flying air ambulance for someone like Pheonix Air, or overseas, you aren't going to be making anywhere near what R & W makes.
 
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There is a reason some of those over seas jobs have to pay that much.
 
James331 said:
There is a reason some of those over seas jobs have to pay that much.
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Oh I agree. I'll take my substantially reduced pay any day to be able to live where I want and be home every night. That and the fact I never want to go back to dual cockpit. We have a guy who left S-92s to come back to EMS because he was bored out of his mind typing on an FMS all day and never touching the controls. Didn't like commuting to the GoM every two weeks and being gone from home either.

I've always said that there is no perfect flying job. There are pros and cons with flying just like any other job. You find a type of flying that's most in line with your goals and go after it.
 
I guess i'll give my perspective.

After doing my Commercial single and multi engine I went and got my CFI and CFII to get on board with the whole time building deal. Made it 8 months before I got fed up with instruction and not building time fast enough. Took a risk and got on with a skydiving company which was starting up in Connecticut. Risk payed off and it was the best flying I could ever imagine doing. It wasn't even a job, it was honestly great fun, great people and i built 850 hours and made about $20K in the 8 month season. After that my school had been approved for the restricted ATP and sitting with 1150 hours TT I figured i'd move onto the regionals. I wanted to go corporate but my hours were insufficient and I didn't have any good contacts. Started at the regionals and don't have many good things to say honestly BUT my situation may be different than a lot of others. I've been at the regionals a year now and i've been desperately firing off resumes to corporate jobs for the entire year.
 
I got an ATP ,hoping to use it while flying charters part time. It wasn't about the money. It helped me be a better pilot. No regrets.
 
Hey OP are you a pilot now? Wouldn't worry bout the career stuff til you have a private license and might know a few things. On the other side I am a 'what you do for work becomes work' believer. Least that is the way it is for me, something to be aware of. Have fun.
 
Velocity173 said:
If you're worried about being paid so little, you don't go looking to fly air ambulance. ATP (captain) jobs pay far more.

I think you need to do a lot more research on the market before deciding on a path. Pay is just one piece of the puzzle.
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How much should I pay my air ambulance pilots? All my pilots are making over $100k. The newest pilot has been here 4 years now. The oldest pilot has been here since the original owner started in 1978. And he announced he will retire on 31Dec2014.:sad:

Maybe I need to do a pay review and look into reducing my payroll....:rofl:

Seriously, let me see your research on air ambulance pilot pay.
 
Zeldman said:
How much should I pay my air ambulance pilots? All my pilots are making over $100k. The newest pilot has been here 4 years now. The oldest pilot has been here since the original owner started in 1978. And he announced he will retire on 31Dec2014.:sad:

Maybe I need to do a pay review and look into reducing my payroll....:rofl:

Seriously, let me see your research on air ambulance pilot pay.
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Sure, and there are just as many guys starting out flying air ambulance Senecas at 45 grand, HEMS making 55 grand and King Airs at 75 grand. As I said there's a huge difference in pay amongst the different communities.

My point is that the OP made a reference to ATP positions paying little. Well if you compare a guy starting off in a regional to air ambulance then yes, they pay little. If we're talking the traditional definition of ATP, being a major air line captain like R & W who's probably pushing 200 grand, then I'd say no, they pay quite well.
 
I was an instructor/135 cargo/air ambulance/commuter (regional)/121 cargo/121 supplemental guy.

I'm in it for the long haul. There is plenty of information out there. Go in with your eyes open.

The only things I can add is have a plan. When the plan goes to hell, will you be OK with it. Will your spouse, kids, loved ones be OK with it? Very few guys have gone their entire careers without hitting a speed bump or a wall. Just like in flying, plan for the worst and hope for the best.

I personally wouldn't have changed a thing so far.
 
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