Tips for close approach wanted

[AggieMike88]

At least I think "close approach" is the right name for the maneuver... allow me to describe....

Me: Just crossing 100hr mark with about 45 hrs since the checkride.
Aircraft: 2003 Warrior III, PA-28-161, (N9855S for the locals familiar with it)
Location: Home airport, KDTO, class D with a good tower crew.

I was returning from a XC flight (the food and hospitality at KTYR, Tyler, TX, is really good!) I was East and a bit North of the field when I did my 10-mile call up (HWY 380 & 377 for the locals), ready to be told to enter a left base for RWY18 as was the typical case when I approached from this particular point. Pattern was fairly active and the controller asked me to turn southward and join the pattern at the bottom of the left downwind and report over the Peterbuilt assembly plant. Plenty of time to do that, so made the left turn and headed over the city of Denton toward Peterbuilt. (Note for the story: The controller on duty is someone I have met before and does a great job remembering voice, tail#, and flying skill combinations. He uses this as another tool for himself as he deals with busy times at KDTO).

During the 5-6 minutes to Peterbuilt, I heard the controller continue to work the busy pattern. When the tower is active, the pattern is kept to thw west of the runway for noise abatement, so the aircraft in the pattern were doing right traffic.

Joined the left downwind over Peterbuilt, made my report to Tower, and got the acknolwedgement from him. In the same breath he gave some instructions to some student pilots on the right pattern.

Just about abeam the numbers, I had yet to get my "cleared to land instructions". I was about to call up and ask when he came on and asked if it was possible for me to make a "close approach". (again, I think that is the correct term).

This I knew to be the maneuver that some call "chop and drop", where at your abeam point, you do what's needed to get to the ground quickly. Pull throttle, make a smart decending turn to the centerline, adding flaps as needed, and land "as quickly as possible".

I had only done this once before, during training and with my CFI on board. So not being totally comfortable doing it on my own in that busy pattern, I declined. Tower said "No problem, then you'll be #3 behind a Cessna. Extend downwind and expect your base turn just north of 380 (a local highway that is 2 miles north of the threshhold), clear to land."

If I had accepted Tower's instruction, I would have been on the ground ahead of the other two. Fortunately, I wasn't in any big hurry, so the additional 5-7 minutes flying was okay by me.


My question is how to perform the requested maneuver safely. Is it as simple as pull power to flight idle, add in landing flaps, and make the decending "race track" turn to the centerline and land?

Or are there additional steps that I should keep in mind?

 

[roncachamp]

At least I think "close approach" is the right name for the maneuver... allow me to describe....

MAKE SHORT APPROACH− Used by ATC to
inform a pilot to alter his/her traffic pattern so as to
make a short final approach.

 

[AggieMike88]

Thanks, Steve. An add on question now that I know the right term: If I want to practice this while at a towered field, I would ask the controller for a SHORT APPROACH and obtain clearance for that?

 

[Geico266]

You did the right thing. People get killed at OSH every year (it seems) by doing maneuvers they have not done before. The controllers get excited and ask pilots to do something to keep traffic flowing. Tight turning usually is the killer.


Good call.


Practice it at altitude before you try it in the pattern.

 

[Henning]

Long Beach was excellent about giving me option for "short approaches". As with you, the controllers at LGB knew me by voice and ability. If I was coming into the pattern for 25L with a bunch 152s ahead of me he would often give "04Y if able short approach 25L abeam the tower." At that point I'd aim for my modified key point abeam the tower, dump in all the flaps, cut the throttles and do a slipping 180 for my new landing spot 4500' down a 7500' runway (exiting me next to my ramp). Sometimes on downwind for 25L he'd clear me for 30 and I'd just dump it all, slow it way down and do a sinking turn for the threshold and still exit before 25L.

 

[Geico266]

Long Beach was excellent about giving me option for "short approaches". As with you, the controllers at LGB knew me by voice and ability. If I was coming into the pattern for 25L with a bunch 152s ahead of me he would often give "04Y if able short approach 25L abeam the tower." At that point I'd aim for my modified key point abeam the tower, dump in all the flaps, cut the throttles and do a slipping 180 for my new landing spot 4500' down a 7500' runway (exiting me next to my ramp). Sometimes on downwind for 25L he'd clear me for 30 and I'd just dump it all, slow it way down and do a sinking turn for the threshold and still exit before 25L.

Show off.

You really should fly RV's.

 

[roncachamp]

Thanks, Steve. An add on question now that I know the right term: If I want to practice this while at a towered field, I would ask the controller for a SHORT APPROACH and obtain clearance for that?

Letting the controller know you want to do something different from what you've been doing previously is a good idea. That said, what constitutes a "short approach" today was generally considered a normal approach thirty or forty years ago.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Thanks, Steve. An add on question now that I know the right term: If I want to practice this while at a towered field, I would ask the controller for a SHORT APPROACH and obtain clearance for that?

Yes, request a short approach and they will usually approve it.

Big thing is to let them know what you want to do. If tower is expecting you to fly a normal square pattern descent from downwing/basefinal, they may clear anther airplane to depart before you land. Now, if all the sudden you are turning in toward the runway alot sooner than they expect, and another guy is rolling onto the runway.....it can create problems.

 

[Fearless Tower]

That said, what constitutes a "short approach" today was generally considered a normal approach thirty or forty years ago.

Very true....at MYF, a power off 180 would generally constitute a short approach (but part of that is due to the 1000' DT that is used for departures).

 

[Jeanie]

Mike, is there a non towered airport near you with less traffic where you can practice short approaches?
Basically, your description is correct. Pull power to idle, add flaps maybe 20*, make a continuous descending turn, not high bank (having traced the path with your eyes so you know where to go- high wings don't let you look as easily) and land. It's not difficult just different. Talk to a local CFI and get tips too and then go out to a calm field and practice it.... Saying unable and then being third to land was your best choice and frankly is always a good one.

 

[AggieMike88]

Mike, is there a non towered airport near you with less traffic where you can practice short approaches?

Yup.. KGLE and KLUD are all within 25 miles. And going to one of them this weekend for more practice laps is being considered.

Basically, your description is correct. Pull power to idle, add flaps maybe 20*, make a continuous descending turn, not high bank (having traced the path with your eyes so you know where to go- high wings don't let you look as easily) and land. It's not difficult just different. Talk to a local CFI and get tips too and then go out to a calm field and practice it.... Saying unable and then being third to land was your best choice and frankly is always a good one.

Thanks all for the encouragement about saying "Unable". I've read many a discussion about that is the "magic word" to prevent a controller from starting an accident chain.

@Henning: Your description of picking a "modified" landing spot on the long runway is what I was thinking of when I reviewed all of this after parking the aircraft. KDTO now has 7000' to work with, and that Warrior does a nice job in using a relative small amount of that when handled right. So if I had done the manuever, it likely would have resembled your described approach.

 

[Henning]

@Henning: Your description of picking a "modified" landing spot on the long runway is what I was thinking of when I reviewed all of this after parking the aircraft. KDTO now has 7000' to work with, and that Warrior does a nice job in using a relative small amount of that when handled right. So if I had done the manuever, it likely would have resembled your described approach.

Yep, just visualize your new threshold and picture your new route to it. It's really as easy as that and can be a real time saver at a busy airport when the controller gets used to you being able to get down short. Helps him by getting you out of the mix as well. When my Travelair entered the pattern with 12 152s with students, it seemed a relief to him to get me down and clear.

 

[Matthew]

I think you did fine. My CFI and I both worked a lot of short approaches - so it's not really been a big deal for me. If you're not comfortable with it, or there are some other reasons that you feel you've gotten behind the plane, just say "unable" and you'll get worked in another way. It's happened to me several times - I usually take the suggestion, I have plenty of rwy to work with at the towered airports I normally use so landing "on the numbers" isn't all that important.

Henning has the right idea - either just make it work, or say "unable". Best to practice it a few times so you don't find yourself hurrying so much that you forget how to fly the plane.

 

[OzPilot]

Power off 180's are great practice anyway! I enjoy them quite a lot. Did one today actually.

 

[S Joslin]

My CFI-I likes to use this "chop and drop" or "dive and drive" kind of approach when we're landing.

His explanation: You've arrived at the airport on the localizer, you're just below the clouds on a tight downwind, you DON'T want to lose sight of the runway, abeam the numbers, tight turn and land.

 

[TripleZ]

Power off 180's are great practice anyway! I enjoy them quite a lot. Did one today actually.

This +1

Favorite landing by far, and typically my last one of every flight (since you end up landing long have would have to taxi back). I've always practiced them as engine outs in the pattern.

Take your CFI out one day and practice a few. The first time you're full flaps, standing the plane on its nose, in a slip (if you want to hit the numbers), it can be a bit daunting. But it's great practice for the occasionally screwed up high approach (slip, full flaps).

 

[denverpilot]

Short approaches are fun. They also put you in a position where if the engine quits, you're still going to make the runway.

The others saying the controllers remember who can do it for them and who can't is absolutely correct. I've "helped" the KAPA controllers many times when offered the opportunity. They also do nice stuff like clearing me to land on Runway 10 fairly regularly when winds allow, which puts me a lot closer to my hangar.

Agree with the sentiment that you go get comfortable with the maneuvers at altitude first, and/or get a CFI to ride along the first few times.

The 182 with 40 flaps hanging out plus the few degrees the ailerons are still drooped at 40 with the Robertson STOL and a slipping turn will come down like a damned rock.

You can force an undershoot with all the drag if you try hard and wait to pull power past the numbers abeam... with a ten knot wind. No wind, you'd have to be really heavy to not get there.

In a high-wing, I try to always briefly raise that inside wing for a very brief look at the runway at the 90 degree point and as a clearing look.

To keep the turn going you have to really wrack the yoke to up the roll rate in the ponderous 182, so you can "peek" out from under that wingtip and then rack it back into the turn.

It's one maneuver where you really do need to stuff in the appropriate rudder input to correspond with the ailerons, otherwise it gets really "sloppy". No feet on the floor for that.

If you're behind on the rudder it'll shove your butt around and is uncomfortable for passengers. Especially in back.

One way to practice for the higher roll rate is to go do steep turns in the practice area but putting the emphasis on upping the roll-in rate.

Then only turn 90 degrees and reverse it, rolling just as fast the other direction. Hold altitude. Now make it 180 degrees and try to lose exactly 1000' of altitude in the turn while holding a reasonably slow airspeed. It's good practice.

Most folks never use more than half of the aileron travel available to them in the "smoother" roll-ins most folks practice in steep turns. Rolling faster in a reversal is a great way to "cheat" away the ballooning upward as you pass through wings-level since you spend less time there.

 

[BrianR]

Mike,

I did a short approach a few times in training, in the Warrior. It was always when I was pretty much abeam the numbers on downwind, and someone large and fast was on final a few miles out. I was taught to bring power to idle, full flaps, and do a slipping 180.

The first time I did one with my CFI, it was like, "Whaaatttt....you want me to slip, while turning, while this close to the ground? Are you nuts??" But once I got comfortable with it, it became a useful tool. In fact, I need to go practice them again, as I don't think I've done one since getting my ticket.

 

[gprellwitz]

Reminds me of one time at night at KDPA, where I heard tower clear an inbound aircraft to land, describing me as "about to turn base." IIRC, I was about abeam the numbers at the time doing a series of stop and goes on a 4750' runway. I pulled power, added full flaps (this was in a 172SP). and dove for the runway. I was out of there before he was anywhere near a factor. In retrospect, I was paying too much attention to the controller and considering him a "god", when I should have really continued the pattern I had planned in my mind. OTOH, I had about 330 hours at this point, so felt relatively comfortable. I think you absolutely did the right thing saying "unable" in the circumstances you described!

 

[Clark1961]

Short approaches are fun. They also put you in a position where if the engine quits, you're still going to make the runway.

The others saying the controllers remember who can do it for them and who can't is absolutely correct. I've "helped" the KAPA controllers many times when offered the opportunity. They also do nice stuff like clearing me to land on Runway 10 fairly regularly when winds allow, which puts me a lot closer to my hangar.

Agree with the sentiment that you go get comfortable with the maneuvers at altitude first, and/or get a CFI to ride along the first few times.

The 182 with 40 flaps hanging out plus the few degrees the ailerons are still drooped at 40 with the Robertson STOL and a slipping turn will come down like a damned rock.

You can force an undershoot with all the drag if you try hard and wait to pull power past the numbers abeam... with a ten knot wind. No wind, you'd have to be really heavy to not get there.

In a high-wing, I try to always briefly raise that inside wing for a very brief look at the runway at the 90 degree point and as a clearing look.

To keep the turn going you have to really wrack the yoke to up the roll rate in the ponderous 182, so you can "peek" out from under that wingtip and then rack it back into the turn.

It's one maneuver where you really do need to stuff in the appropriate rudder input to correspond with the ailerons, otherwise it gets really "sloppy". No feet on the floor for that.

If you're behind on the rudder it'll shove your butt around and is uncomfortable for passengers. Especially in back.

One way to practice for the higher roll rate is to go do steep turns in the practice area but putting the emphasis on upping the roll-in rate.

Then only turn 90 degrees and reverse it, rolling just as fast the other direction. Hold altitude. Now make it 180 degrees and try to lose exactly 1000' of altitude in the turn while holding a reasonably slow airspeed. It's good practice.

Most folks never use more than half of the aileron travel available to them in the "smoother" roll-ins most folks practice in steep turns. Rolling faster in a reversal is a great way to "cheat" away the ballooning upward as you pass through wings-level since you spend less time there.

Yeah, do all that....and keep the nose down. Always keep the nose down until round-out/flare. Did I mention to keep the nose down?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yeah, do all that....and keep the nose down. Always keep the nose down until round-out/flare. Did I mention to keep the nose down?

Did you forget to mention to keep the nose down?

 

[Clark1961]

Did you forget to mention to keep the nose down?

I'm so sorry, I forgot to mention: keep the nose down, no matter what happens, keep the nose down lest one precipitates one's aircraft abruptly in close proximity to the runway.

 

[GCA319]

At least I think "close approach" is the right name for the maneuver... allow me to describe....

Me: Just crossing 100hr mark with about 45 hrs since the checkride.
Aircraft: 2003 Warrior III, PA-28-161, (N9855S for the locals familiar with it)
Location: Home airport, KDTO, class D with a good tower crew.

I was returning from a XC flight (the food and hospitality at KTYR, Tyler, TX, is really good!) I was East and a bit North of the field when I did my 10-mile call up (HWY 380 & 377 for the locals), ready to be told to enter a left base for RWY18 as was the typical case when I approached from this particular point. Pattern was fairly active and the controller asked me to turn southward and join the pattern at the bottom of the left downwind and report over the Peterbuilt assembly plant. Plenty of time to do that, so made the left turn and headed over the city of Denton toward Peterbuilt. (Note for the story: The controller on duty is someone I have met before and does a great job remembering voice, tail#, and flying skill combinations. He uses this as another tool for himself as he deals with busy times at KDTO).

During the 5-6 minutes to Peterbuilt, I heard the controller continue to work the busy pattern. When the tower is active, the pattern is kept to thw west of the runway for noise abatement, so the aircraft in the pattern were doing right traffic.

Joined the left downwind over Peterbuilt, made my report to Tower, and got the acknolwedgement from him. In the same breath he gave some instructions to some student pilots on the right pattern.

Just about abeam the numbers, I had yet to get my "cleared to land instructions". I was about to call up and ask when he came on and asked if it was possible for me to make a "close approach". (again, I think that is the correct term).

This I knew to be the maneuver that some call "chop and drop", where at your abeam point, you do what's needed to get to the ground quickly. Pull throttle, make a smart decending turn to the centerline, adding flaps as needed, and land "as quickly as possible".

I had only done this once before, during training and with my CFI on board. So not being totally comfortable doing it on my own in that busy pattern, I declined. Tower said "No problem, then you'll be #3 behind a Cessna. Extend downwind and expect your base turn just north of 380 (a local highway that is 2 miles north of the threshhold), clear to land."

If I had accepted Tower's instruction, I would have been on the ground ahead of the other two. Fortunately, I wasn't in any big hurry, so the additional 5-7 minutes flying was okay by me.


My question is how to perform the requested maneuver safely. Is it as simple as pull power to flight idle, add in landing flaps, and make the decending "race track" turn to the centerline and land?

Or are there additional steps that I should keep in mind?

Good on you for not letting ATC fly your airplane. Alot of people get killed every year by doing stuff they are not comfortable with.