Time to buy ADS-B - which one?

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by comanchepilot, Oct 9, 2012.

  1. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    I've been using Foreflight but know that the choices are limited to Stratus but its available now at least.

    Will the XGPS170 work with FF or is it doomed to remain vapor ware? They claimed late September and have not updated the website or sent out any updates but it will have tis-b as well.

    Garmin has their over priced gdl-39 and buggy garmin pilot app.

    Wing X promises more options but is more costly than Foreflight for the same thing.

    So wait for xgps and hope it works with Foreflight? Any other options out there?

    Reviews? Thoughts? What am I missing?
     
  2. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm in the same boat as you. I'd like ONE ADS-B receiver could could be used with both ForeFlight and Garmin Pilot....but I suspect I'll be waiting awhile for that wish. The GDL-39 is priced exactly the same as the Stratus, so if one is overpriced, they both are overpriced. I have less of an issue with the cost than the application-specific support requirements.
     
  3. Piloto

    Piloto Line Up and Wait

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    I am waiting for the iPhone 7 with all the above plus, text messages, phone, Internet access and Skype at 30,000 feet.

    Some telecommunications companies are working on cell phone technology to make possible cell phone network access while in an airliner that has no Wi-Fi. While ADS-B is good for now cell phone technology promises more features and capabilities at a lower price.

    José
     
  4. Challenged

    Challenged Cleared for Takeoff

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    While I'm on Android, I'm playing the waiting game on this as well. I'm hoping that someone will come out with a device that has not only GPS, ADS-B and traffic, but also AHRS, so that I can have cheap synthetic vision. I know the Sagetech device supports all of those, but I haven't heard about support for Android, and I know the release has been pushed back until next year (March 29, 2013 according to the website).

    I realize I won't be able to get airspeed data to my tablet on my non-experimental airplane, but we're talking about potentially replacing $15,000 to $20,000 worth of aviation grade equipment with a much cheaper, upgradable solution, which I think is great for GA.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  5. JGoodish

    JGoodish Cleared for Takeoff

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    From what I understand, the GDL-39 is priced the same as Stratus, except that the price doesn't include a battery. For a while, Garmin was giving the battery away for "free," not sure if that is still the case.


    JKG
     
  6. JGoodish

    JGoodish Cleared for Takeoff

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    After agonizing over apps, I finally committed to ForeFlight for the foreseeable future. Garmin Pilot is buggy and incomplete, and is clearly not a focus product for Garmin. WingX has some great features, but many of them just aren't complete, and their support model leaves a lot to be desired (still waiting on replies to my e-mail questions and support requests from June, July, and August).

    ForeFlight, on the other hand, does what they do extraordinarily well. They respond quickly to bug reports and operational problems, and actually fix them. The integration with Stratus is excellent, and the system works very well.

    However, you can certainly tell that ADS-B is a government system. Data is streamed in somewhat randomly, even the blocky radar, so just because you have SOME radar plotted doesn't mean that you have the full picture right away. Just because you have METARs for one airport doesn't mean that you have them for the neighboring airport, or have TAFs or NOTAMs for those airports. It takes some time for the broadcast cycle to complete before you have all of the data.

    From what I recall from my XM subscription, the weather products were transmitted complete. In other words, you'd receive all METARs at once, all TAFs at once, all radar at once, etc. However, ADS-B does provide NOTAMs, PIREPs, and an overall more relevant data set for flight operations.

    ForeFlight will also work with XM (WingX will not), but you do have to purchase the WxWorx receiver and MobileLink, plus pay the subscription cost, of course.


    JKG
     
  7. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Another limitation seems to be that there's no data collection within the receiver itself, it all falls to the app communicating with it. Seems like it would make sense to have some cacheing capability with, perhaps, some time-to-live parameter associated with specific data items. I'm purely speculating based on what little info I've read on it, but would hope the technology will mature as more users begin to rely on it.
     
  8. JGoodish

    JGoodish Cleared for Takeoff

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    There is no caching technology in the receiver, although I think at least one of them (Clarity perhaps) claims to have or be bringing that capability to market.

    From what I understand, the stream occurs continuously, and the data is superseded when new data arrives, but I suspect that this caching is a bit more complex that just popping a buffer in there, but I may be wrong. It's difficult for me to determine how much intelligence and data management happens to the stream in the apps themselves, though I suspect that they just display what they get, when they get it. Not sure that the data stream itself is timestamped in any way.


    JKG
     
  9. sdpilot

    sdpilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    How did you come up with 15-20K in replacing equipment? You can get the GDL-88 and pair it with a mode-c transponder for ~$5,500 if you don't have WAAS and $4k if you do. http://www.eaa.org/news/2012/2012-07-16_garmin.asp

    Garmin is actually planning on providing upgrade costs to existing equipment based on the OEM contracts as well. So to upgrade a GTX-33 to a GTX-33 ES for example is $1,200.

    Even if you wanted to get WAAS upgraded GPS on the G1000 the core value on the GIA-63 is around 5K so each GIA-63w would cost ~4K to upgrade. Obviously your equipment may vary depending on what you do and how far you want to upgrade, but you could get ADS-B in and out for ~5K.

    Still way more expensive than a GDL-39 at $799 and a mobile device for $500 though.
     
  10. chartbundle

    chartbundle Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Actually the GDL-39 does just that. It doesn't send raw ADS-B/FIS-B, it sends fully processed data files when the app requests them. Your app gets a notification for 'new traffic' or 'new weather' and tells the GDL-39 it wants the file, then you get the full file, uncompress it and decode the resulting data. No dealing with the 'interesting' raw ADS-B encodings or anything, all nice normal computer-readable floats and ints and ASCII.
     
  11. Challenged

    Challenged Cleared for Takeoff

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    "How did you come up with 15-20K in replacing equipment?" I was referring to using the tablet for an AHRS with WAAS GPS + approach plates + traffic + weather + synthetic vision, instead of installing a $15,000 G1000 system. I realize the G1000 is certified and does tons more but it's also amazing that you can get so much of the primary functions of a glass panel for cheap right on a tablet.
     
  12. Scrabo

    Scrabo Cleared for Takeoff

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    For example ?
     
  13. JGoodish

    JGoodish Cleared for Takeoff

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    My running list:

    Glacially S-L-O-W map redraw on the iPad 3;
    Course disappears and is then redrawn when changing zoom levels (or adding/removing map overlays);
    Pending TFRs aren't always shown (and aren't differentiated from active ones);
    Lack of any warnings for terrain/obstacles (if you're going to show them, you need audible warnings);
    Lack of obstacle height data;
    Slightly inaccurate SUA depictions (such as the DC SFRA);
    Slightly inaccurate magnetic variation and density altitude calculations;
    Lower-resolution approach charts (though still functional);
    The "intelligent" waypoint insertion that sometimes gets the sequencing wrong;
    Lousy victor airways support (it's there, but not well implemented);
    Lack of SID/STAR support in routes;
    Text weather displays some Internet products, but others (such as NOTAMs) aren't displayed except through ADS-B;
    Lack of Internet weather overlay on the map, and the lack of quality substitute products with route overlay (the route overlay they do on the DUATs map is almost useless.)

    I might have stuck it out with them, except that I kept hearing about Hilton promising XM support two years ago (still not done), and apparently the promises to fix SID/STARs is at least a year old (also still not done). I never did get them to reactivate my demo period, I had to buy a new iPad to get a new demo. Never received one response to perhaps a dozen e-mails to support. I did get someone on the phone who couldn't help with anything other than feature support, but he did tell me there are no plans for any Internet weather overlay on the map. That was kind of the nail in the coffin for me, as the ability to plan and then go fly with near-seamless weather display is important to me.

    I think that WingX is a fine effort for one individual who has chosen to differentiate his product with features rather than attention to detail. Nothing necessarily wrong with that as long as you know what you're getting.


    JKG
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  14. milestogo

    milestogo Filing Flight Plan

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    I got the GDL-39 coupled to a aera 796 and am very happy with the combination. I do agree it's expensive. I also have GTX-33ES which lights up traffic making the entire system very useful (and 2020 compliant).

    The Nexrad seems to be a little more accurate than XM and a little less latent but I can't confirm.
     
  15. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    Just get the GDL-88 and a GTN-750 and you're set. :D
     
  16. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    By the book, it's significantly lower resolution but updated about the same speed in the main coverage area of the transmitter. Further away stuff is updated slower. If I'm reading the specs correctly, anyway.

    There's some side by side screenshots of XM and ADS-B on the same device that shows the resolution difference out there. Can't hunt for them right now.
     
  17. PaulMillner

    PaulMillner Pre-takeoff checklist

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    NavWorx works with WingX on the iPad, less than $3,000 for ADS-B in *and* out.

    Paul
     
  18. Flying_Nun

    Flying_Nun Pre-takeoff checklist

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  19. jtheune

    jtheune En-Route

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    Don't need a GTN-750 if you have a 530 now, it will display the weather and traffic
     
  20. Jay Honeck

    Jay Honeck Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Just a data point for the GDL-39: I finally received my free battery (that was a special OSH spiff), and don't like it much. It makes the unit thicker, and it was already on the edge of being too big for the glare shield. I will probably remove it, since the unit itself isn't flight critical.

    Sent from my Nexus 7
     
  21. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    will you send it to me Jay, if I decide to buy a gdl-39?? :D :D
     
  22. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    not certified so you can't use in 2020 = why pay $2k for a capability to can't really use?
     
  23. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    I've got a 480. Do you know if that'll work with a GDL-88? I'd hate to spend money on a new WAAS GPS.
     
  24. jtheune

    jtheune En-Route

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    That's the old UPS box right? I don't think so but you can check on the Garmin website.
     
  25. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    Garmin did not buy UPS-AT to actually make their products better - they bought them to eliminate the competition . . .
     
  26. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    Yeah I think it's too old to accept the GDL-88.:(
     
  27. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

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    Having the GTX33ES makes the traffic very useful. However, the GTX33ES isn't yet 2020 compliant. There will be a free update to the software available later this year that will make it compliant along with a software update to the GNS430W/530W or GTN. It will have to be confirmed that the installation meets the STC, but the STC is not yet available. In the meantime, it makes the use of the GDL39 traffic a powerful tool.
     
  28. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

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    Support for the GNS480 is problematic for several reasons and as of today doesn't work with the GDL88.
     
  29. JGoodish

    JGoodish Cleared for Takeoff

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    Not to mention that I haven't seen any announced, shipping support for it from WingX.


    JKG